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2014 Stanley Cup - Don't Toews me, man!!!
- Thread starter joecct
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Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: 2014 Stanley Cup - Don't Toews me, man!!!
True. Transparently so.
I've never been averse to using it either.
Sometimes it's the best argument against hypocrisy and double standards and general butthurt doosh-baggery.
A weak point is one that can be turned around on oneself in this fashion. I try to look at what I've typed and see if it can before hitting "submit."
"Can the same thing be said about me or my team or my political point of view?"
Sometimes, it even makes me reconsider my position or point of view when I catch myself in this fashion.
I still get tripped up from time to time though.
Tu quoque argumentation.
True. Transparently so.
I've never been averse to using it either.
Sometimes it's the best argument against hypocrisy and double standards and general butthurt doosh-baggery.
A weak point is one that can be turned around on oneself in this fashion. I try to look at what I've typed and see if it can before hitting "submit."
"Can the same thing be said about me or my team or my political point of view?"
Sometimes, it even makes me reconsider my position or point of view when I catch myself in this fashion.
I still get tripped up from time to time though.
Re: 2014 Stanley Cup - Don't Toews me, man!!!
Personally, I'm willing to attend a sporting event on a solo basis. OK, not my usual thing. But when circumstances dictate, you generally find other fans interested in swapping stories about the current season, team history, etc. I recommend it; especially if the alternative is sitting at home, bummed out about missing the game. That said, I'm pretty sure I'm in a small minority on this. Most fans aren't willing to sit in single seats, much less go to the venue alone.
Case in Point: Cleveland Indians fans of the 1990's. I grew up elsewhere, and never my changed MLB loyalties. So to the extent I've paid attention to the Tribe, it's been as a neutral observer. When Jacobs Field was built and the team started to win, attendance jumped from pathetic to hard sellouts. My first reaction was "what a bunch of bandwagon jumpers." But I kept an open mind, and talked to a number of Tribe fans about this. Time after time I found a guy who was very well versed in team history, even the darkest years. They also tended to be good baseball people in general. When asked if they were part of the 2,000 people that actually attended games at the old stadium, the answer would be a shrug coupled with the comment that no one else was willing to go. Again, I was skeptical at first, but I had this conversation so many times I came to believe in it.
Tickets are pricey; commutes can be burdensome -- particularly in the largest markets. Lack of a companion may be strike three. But a guy's heart may still be at the ballpark or rink.
Agreed. And sometimes fans don't show up in person because they can't find anyone to attend with. But that same fan may be following the broadcasts ardently, wearing the gear, buying the publications and so on. Those are still good fans, IMHO -- even if the team's accountants disagree.
Personally, I'm willing to attend a sporting event on a solo basis. OK, not my usual thing. But when circumstances dictate, you generally find other fans interested in swapping stories about the current season, team history, etc. I recommend it; especially if the alternative is sitting at home, bummed out about missing the game. That said, I'm pretty sure I'm in a small minority on this. Most fans aren't willing to sit in single seats, much less go to the venue alone.
Case in Point: Cleveland Indians fans of the 1990's. I grew up elsewhere, and never my changed MLB loyalties. So to the extent I've paid attention to the Tribe, it's been as a neutral observer. When Jacobs Field was built and the team started to win, attendance jumped from pathetic to hard sellouts. My first reaction was "what a bunch of bandwagon jumpers." But I kept an open mind, and talked to a number of Tribe fans about this. Time after time I found a guy who was very well versed in team history, even the darkest years. They also tended to be good baseball people in general. When asked if they were part of the 2,000 people that actually attended games at the old stadium, the answer would be a shrug coupled with the comment that no one else was willing to go. Again, I was skeptical at first, but I had this conversation so many times I came to believe in it.
Tickets are pricey; commutes can be burdensome -- particularly in the largest markets. Lack of a companion may be strike three. But a guy's heart may still be at the ballpark or rink.
G
Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: 2014 Stanley Cup - Don't Toews me, man!!!
I haven't attended a Hawks game since the 08-09 season. Is that the opposite of a bandwagon fan - I stopped going once they achieved success?
I got priced out. Just haven't been willing to pay that much to go to a game and sit where I want, which is the 200s. I live out of market, so don't get the occasional "Hey I have Hawks tickets - can you use them?"
Such is life. I'll go again.
Pretty sure I'm still a real fan, but might have to check with our resident bandwagon analysts.
I haven't attended a Hawks game since the 08-09 season. Is that the opposite of a bandwagon fan - I stopped going once they achieved success?
I got priced out. Just haven't been willing to pay that much to go to a game and sit where I want, which is the 200s. I live out of market, so don't get the occasional "Hey I have Hawks tickets - can you use them?"
Such is life. I'll go again.
Pretty sure I'm still a real fan, but might have to check with our resident bandwagon analysts.
WeAreNDHockey
\../ \../
Re: 2014 Stanley Cup - Don't Toews me, man!!!
You missed my point completely, but based on the posts of yours I stumble upon, that happens a lot with you. I wasn't saying my team (or any team) is any different from what the Hawks are now. I just used them as the convenient and current example. Or perhaps you got my point and simply wasted your time and restated it using the Wings as the example from the days when they sucked because most people on these forums have more fun dissing another team than they do rooting for their own. Butt hurt indeed.
As for the reasons behind the awful Hawks crowds for nearly 10 years running, who cares if it is bad management or any other reason they had fewer fans? The fact is, the fans were not there. Good fans, real fans (or sheep if that makes more sense) continue to show even if the only reason they were there was they wanted to run over the older Wirtz with a zamboni. As for being factual, here are some facts: The Hawks sold out the UC consistently the first couple of seasons it was open, but by the 1997/98 season empty seats were becoming common as average attendance dipped below 19,000. By the 1998/99 season they were averaging 2000 empty seats in a 20,000 seat building. By 2002 it was more like 5,000 empty seats and in 2007 they were only averaging 12,700 a game, I believe the worst in the NHL. And since we know teams lie like rugs as attendance dwindles there were frequent games with fewer than 10,000 butts in the seats. And trust me, you'll eventually have the same choice of seats at the UC when the Hawks fall, as all teams eventually do.
*eta* I do not think attending games is the only measure of real fandon, BTW, or even the best one. But it is certainly one good measure of a teams success or popularity. I haven't been to a Phillies game in a few years since I live 12 hours away from Philadelphia. As Gurtolfin noted, many fans are priced out, and this is one huge reason that teams suffer at the box office. The Cubs are a great example of this. They couldn't even come close to packing Wrigley last night for a Sox game, something unheard of just a couple of seasons ago.
You missed my point completely, but based on the posts of yours I stumble upon, that happens a lot with you. I wasn't saying my team (or any team) is any different from what the Hawks are now. I just used them as the convenient and current example. Or perhaps you got my point and simply wasted your time and restated it using the Wings as the example from the days when they sucked because most people on these forums have more fun dissing another team than they do rooting for their own. Butt hurt indeed.
As for the reasons behind the awful Hawks crowds for nearly 10 years running, who cares if it is bad management or any other reason they had fewer fans? The fact is, the fans were not there. Good fans, real fans (or sheep if that makes more sense) continue to show even if the only reason they were there was they wanted to run over the older Wirtz with a zamboni. As for being factual, here are some facts: The Hawks sold out the UC consistently the first couple of seasons it was open, but by the 1997/98 season empty seats were becoming common as average attendance dipped below 19,000. By the 1998/99 season they were averaging 2000 empty seats in a 20,000 seat building. By 2002 it was more like 5,000 empty seats and in 2007 they were only averaging 12,700 a game, I believe the worst in the NHL. And since we know teams lie like rugs as attendance dwindles there were frequent games with fewer than 10,000 butts in the seats. And trust me, you'll eventually have the same choice of seats at the UC when the Hawks fall, as all teams eventually do.
*eta* I do not think attending games is the only measure of real fandon, BTW, or even the best one. But it is certainly one good measure of a teams success or popularity. I haven't been to a Phillies game in a few years since I live 12 hours away from Philadelphia. As Gurtolfin noted, many fans are priced out, and this is one huge reason that teams suffer at the box office. The Cubs are a great example of this. They couldn't even come close to packing Wrigley last night for a Sox game, something unheard of just a couple of seasons ago.
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Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: 2014 Stanley Cup - Don't Toews me, man!!!
BS. You were taking a direct shot at Hawks fans.
As far as dissing the Wings, again BS. I'm one of the few Hawks fans I know who never felt that rivalry the way the majority did. Always respected the Wings and the 20 year run that they've been on.
The North Stars were the team I hated most and once they moved I didn't care much about any other individual team until the Canucks came along.
Your numbers back up that the attendance fell the most in the 2000s, just like I said. Thanks.
BS. You were taking a direct shot at Hawks fans.
As far as dissing the Wings, again BS. I'm one of the few Hawks fans I know who never felt that rivalry the way the majority did. Always respected the Wings and the 20 year run that they've been on.
The North Stars were the team I hated most and once they moved I didn't care much about any other individual team until the Canucks came along.
Your numbers back up that the attendance fell the most in the 2000s, just like I said. Thanks.
aparch
Acetaminamerican
Re: 2014 Stanley Cup - Don't Toews me, man!!!
The problem I have are the "fans" who jumped aboard because they're winning, bought a Kane jersey because he's "the best!!!!1!!" and yells "Detroit Sucks!" because it sounded like a great idea after three beers. Those people have a Rex Grossman jersey sitting next to a Derrick Rose jersey in their closet. As soon as the Hawks aren't popular they'll move on.
Sure each fan base has these people, but the number of fans who are "OMG Hawks!" fans since 2008 really sours it for long time fans like Gurt who sat through the Eric Daze era, cheered when Foley broke the news in game that Alexander Karpovtsev was traded, and had to pin their hopes on Jocelyn Thibault being able to stop a beach ball; and it hurts the new fans trying to learn hockey or have a team to root for.
Sure there are new fans who may like Kane because of his stick handling skills and on ice play. That's fine.
But the Wrigley Bleacher crowd that are sudden Hawks "fans" can go take a long walk off Navy Pier.
And I'd say the same thing about the Wings fan base.
The problem I have are the "fans" who jumped aboard because they're winning, bought a Kane jersey because he's "the best!!!!1!!" and yells "Detroit Sucks!" because it sounded like a great idea after three beers. Those people have a Rex Grossman jersey sitting next to a Derrick Rose jersey in their closet. As soon as the Hawks aren't popular they'll move on.
Sure each fan base has these people, but the number of fans who are "OMG Hawks!" fans since 2008 really sours it for long time fans like Gurt who sat through the Eric Daze era, cheered when Foley broke the news in game that Alexander Karpovtsev was traded, and had to pin their hopes on Jocelyn Thibault being able to stop a beach ball; and it hurts the new fans trying to learn hockey or have a team to root for.
Sure there are new fans who may like Kane because of his stick handling skills and on ice play. That's fine.
But the Wrigley Bleacher crowd that are sudden Hawks "fans" can go take a long walk off Navy Pier.
And I'd say the same thing about the Wings fan base.
ExileOnDaytonStreet
Drunkard
G
Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: 2014 Stanley Cup - Don't Toews me, man!!!
Points taken. Same thing happened here when the Packers resurged in the early 90s. All of a sudden, everyone's a Packers fan.
Happens everywhere. People want to be a part of it even if that means being clueless and simply wearing the gear and attending watching parties.
I don't begrudge it coz I know that the success doesn't mean for them what it means to me as they haven't paid the dues that I did.
And please, never remind me of Karp, Thibault, Daze, Zhamnoz, etc, etc, again. I've mostly blocked out those 10 years and can almost convince myself that it never actually happened and that it was just a bad dream.
Points taken. Same thing happened here when the Packers resurged in the early 90s. All of a sudden, everyone's a Packers fan.
Happens everywhere. People want to be a part of it even if that means being clueless and simply wearing the gear and attending watching parties.
I don't begrudge it coz I know that the success doesn't mean for them what it means to me as they haven't paid the dues that I did.
And please, never remind me of Karp, Thibault, Daze, Zhamnoz, etc, etc, again. I've mostly blocked out those 10 years and can almost convince myself that it never actually happened and that it was just a bad dream.
G
Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: 2014 Stanley Cup - Don't Toews me, man!!!
As far as the Foley announcing the Karpovtsev trade...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iviLY1RvNc
Brutal.
Bet Foley would like to have that one back especially considering Karpovtsev's ultimate fate.
Not that he was wrong in his take though...
As far as the Foley announcing the Karpovtsev trade...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iviLY1RvNc
Brutal.
Bet Foley would like to have that one back especially considering Karpovtsev's ultimate fate.
Not that he was wrong in his take though...
jmh
win or lose, we booze
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MissThundercat
Are the cis okay?
Re: 2014 Stanley Cup - Don't Toews me, man!!!
Look at that, the Rangers finally scored!
Look at that, the Rangers finally scored!
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