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2013 Milwaukee Brewers - Cheaters, Underachievers and Disappointments Oh My!

Re: 2013 Milwaukee Brewers - Cheaters, Underachievers and Disappointments Oh My!

By outrage, I mean in the media. There was none of this holier than thou BS they are crapping out now. Same with the players. All of this 'let's keep the game clean' stuff they are spouting about now. Where was it then? I'd rather the Brewers dump Braun completely but the culture shift in PED tolerance in interesting and convenient for MLB. They revived the game in the mid-90's with McGwire and Sosa et al and kept reaping the benefits with Bonds.
 
Re: 2013 Milwaukee Brewers - Cheaters, Underachievers and Disappointments Oh My!

My dad is a sucker for someone who looks him in the eye and says something. He was down two weeks ago and Braun came up. He just kept saying, "But he doesn't look like Bonds or McGuire" meaning that he hasn't bulked up.

I just kept saying smoke ---> fire.


Like I said at the end of the last thread, I don't put these guys on pedestals anyway and root for the team over the individual players. Can't respect cheaters.

Don't care why he did it or how much - my guess is he did it a LOT. He knew it was against the rules. He chose to do it anyway and got caught.


I won't make excuses for him or try to rationalize it.
My sentiments exactly. I wanted to believe Braun (pedestal not included) for a while last year because he couldn't have tested that high, right? Well, he certainly could it seems. Lance and the Biogenesis stuff combined to make quite the combustible (and smoky) mixture.
 
Re: 2013 Milwaukee Brewers - Cheaters, Underachievers and Disappointments Oh My!

Delmonico is listed in the top ten of many Orioles Org lists. Top 5 on most the ones I found...should get to the majors with his bat, Def is still a question but that is more a product of getting used all over due to his versatility...jack of all trades, expert of nothing yet. Brewers should help that by letting him settle in at 3rd
 
Re: 2013 Milwaukee Brewers - Cheaters, Underachievers and Disappointments Oh My!

My sentiments exactly. I wanted to believe Braun (pedestal not included) for a while last year because he couldn't have tested that high, right? Well, he certainly could it seems. Lance and the Biogenesis stuff combined to make quite the combustible (and smoky) mixture.

Braun evidently tested at over 20:1 testosterone:epitestosterone, which is fully consistent with the subsequent positive test for exogenous testosterone. UFC's Chael Sonnen checked in with a 17:1 ratio, I believe, when he got popped so something at 20+ is just marginally higher. Little doubt there are guys out there in choose-your-sport who are running even higher than that. You have to be an idiot to let yourself run that high since, as they say, doping tests aren't really doping tests -- they're IQ tests, but obviously some percentage of dopers will never figure that out. Especially ones who remain sky-high arrogant after skating the system the first time.
 
Re: 2013 Milwaukee Brewers - Cheaters, Underachievers and Disappointments Oh My!

Delmonico is listed in the top ten of many Orioles Org lists. Top 5 on most the ones I found...should get to the majors with his bat, Def is still a question but that is more a product of getting used all over due to his versatility...jack of all trades, expert of nothing yet. Brewers should help that by letting him settle in at 3rd

I like this. Hopefully about the time we need a permanent third baseman, he'll be ready.

and first career homer for Khris Davis last night. How many first career homers have we seen this year? Schafer, Halton, Davis, Gindl, Gennett, Segura... am I forgetting anyone?
 
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Re: 2013 Milwaukee Brewers - Cheaters, Underachievers and Disappointments Oh My!

Braun evidently tested at over 20:1 testosterone:epitestosterone, which is fully consistent with the subsequent positive test for exogenous testosterone. UFC's Chael Sonnen checked in with a 17:1 ratio, I believe, when he got popped so something at 20+ is just marginally higher. Little doubt there are guys out there in choose-your-sport who are running even higher than that. You have to be an idiot to let yourself run that high since, as they say, doping tests aren't really doping tests -- they're IQ tests, but obviously some percentage of dopers will never figure that out. Especially ones who remain sky-high arrogant after skating the system the first time.
Thanks for the info about Sonnen. I just remember hearing last winter that Braun's test was 'off the charts' and 'no one had ever tested that high' etc. It turns out some people are that dumb. He deserves the backlash, sanctimonious though it may be sometimes, for his stupidity, his arrogance, and his inability to learn.
 
Re: 2013 Milwaukee Brewers - Cheaters, Underachievers and Disappointments Oh My!

"@Haudricourt: ESPN reports Ryan Braun relationship with Tony Bosch began in summer 2011 and suggests involved testosterone troches. http://t.co/liYz41MIQU"

Basically: Braun started with Biogenesis in the summer of 2011, and got caught in October.

Wasn't he just coming back from rib injuries around then? It's not an excuse for doing it, but it would explain the temptation.

If that's all they have on him, then he should just sack up and admit it. Of course, no one would trust him saying that, but it would go towards fixing his image.


No word if he was doing this prior to 2011, so I'm unsure if my jersey is tainted or not. :p


If I get a replacement jersey, Lucroy's clean right? I'd like to have the jersey of a player who may stick around a few years.
 
Re: 2013 Milwaukee Brewers - Cheaters, Underachievers and Disappointments Oh My!

"@Haudricourt: ESPN reports Ryan Braun relationship with Tony Bosch began in summer 2011 and suggests involved testosterone troches. http://t.co/liYz41MIQU"

Basically: Braun started with Biogenesis in the summer of 2011, and got caught in October.

Wasn't he just coming back from rib injuries around then? It's not an excuse for doing it, but it would explain the temptation.

If that's all they have on him, then he should just sack up and admit it. Of course, no one would trust him saying that, but it would go towards fixing his image.


No word if he was doing this prior to 2011, so I'm unsure if my jersey is tainted or not. :p


If I get a replacement jersey, Lucroy's clean right? I'd like to have the jersey of a player who may stick around a few years.
Here's a clickable link.

Lucroy has been Braun's most ardent supporter. Proceed with caution.:p
 
Re: 2013 Milwaukee Brewers - Cheaters, Underachievers and Disappointments Oh My!

"@Haudricourt: ESPN reports Ryan Braun relationship with Tony Bosch began in summer 2011 and suggests involved testosterone troches. http://t.co/liYz41MIQU"

Basically: Braun started with Biogenesis in the summer of 2011, and got caught in October.

Wasn't he just coming back from rib injuries around then? It's not an excuse for doing it, but it would explain the temptation.

If that's all they have on him, then he should just sack up and admit it. Of course, no one would trust him saying that, but it would go towards fixing his image.

No word if he was doing this prior to 2011, so I'm unsure if my jersey is tainted or not. :p

If I get a replacement jersey, Lucroy's clean right? I'd like to have the jersey of a player who may stick around a few years.

Agree 100%. Just come out and air the whole thing out. It will be therapeutic for him.

I too am wondering what to do with my Braun jersey....I was considering pulling the name of the back. We shall see.
 
Re: 2013 Milwaukee Brewers - Cheaters, Underachievers and Disappointments Oh My!

Thanks for the info about Sonnen. I just remember hearing last winter that Braun's test was 'off the charts' and 'no one had ever tested that high' etc. It turns out some people are that dumb. He deserves the backlash, sanctimonious though it may be sometimes, for his stupidity, his arrogance, and his inability to learn.

The "off the charts" talk was just spin from Braun's PR team that caught on with the sapsuckers who repeated it endlessly. Now, to be clear, a T:E ratio of over 20:1 is indeed insanely high, but it's not unprecedented and it's not off the charts. If you look at the original "off the charts" comments, you might notice they were carefully crafted to subtly imply "off the charts per MLB testing." That much is true due to 1) the recent advent of MLB testing, and 2) the fact that MLB's testing structure as-is is a complete farce; for a variety of reasons, but that's a topic for somewhere else.
 
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Re: 2013 Milwaukee Brewers - Cheaters, Underachievers and Disappointments Oh My!

The "off the charts" talk was just spin from Braun's PR team that caught on with the sapsuckers who repeated it endlessly. Now, to be clear, a T:E ratio of over 20:1 is indeed insanely high, but it's not unprecedented and it's not off the charts. If you look at the original "off the charts" comments, you might notice they were carefully crafted to subtly imply "off the charts per MLB testing." That much is true due to 1) the recent advent of MLB testing, and 2) the fact that MLB's testing structure as-is is a complete farce; for a variety of reasons, but that's a topic for somewhere else.
Thanks for the info. It really is an interesting topic, even without Braun's problem. Why doesn't MLB just let WADA handle their testing? Maybe not the penalties, but at least the logistics of testing.
 
Re: 2013 Milwaukee Brewers - Cheaters, Underachievers and Disappointments Oh My!

They already took Braun off all the pregame highlight reels. Saw some people still wearing Braun jerseys, but not as many as usual.
 
Re: 2013 Milwaukee Brewers - Cheaters, Underachievers and Disappointments Oh My!

They already took Braun off all the pregame highlight reels. Saw some people still wearing Braun jerseys, but not as many as usual.
A woman taped 'FRAUD' over the name on her number 8 jersey/shirt and was forced to turn it inside out or leave the stadium. The Brewers have since apologized, told her that should not have happened, and invited her to another game.

Link
 
Re: 2013 Milwaukee Brewers - Cheaters, Underachievers and Disappointments Oh My!

Thanks for the info. It really is an interesting topic, even without Braun's problem. Why doesn't MLB just let WADA handle their testing? Maybe not the penalties, but at least the logistics of testing.

I really don't want to clutter up this thread, but Braun aside it is indeed a fascinating topic. It's not quite as simple as just signing things over to WADA, though. WADA is more or less a governing body that implements a code, and governing bodies of sports can either choose to become signatories of the code or not. In the case of sports that are represented in the Olympics they more or less have to sign on, though enforcement of said code runs a real gamut depending on the governing body that signed on.

WADA does do some limited testing in its own right, but it's usually highly targeted. The real testing will come from either a national anti-doping body (USADA, CONI, AFLD, etc.) or at times from the organizer of an event. ASO handling testing in the Tour de France would be an example of this. The whole thing is a mess, but the real takeaway here is that WADA is an organizational structure that sets guidelines and standards and works with other agencies and entities to help properly enforce those guidelines and standards.

For all the good that is in WADA, the entire system is corrupt thanks to monetary, nationalistic, and all sorts of other reasons that it would take a book to explain.

As for MLB, it's free to become a WADA signatory any time it chooses, but it doesn't. Some might say this is because the union is being constrictive in its stance, others who are more cynical would say it's because MLB management doesn't actually care enough to draw a hard line. If you plant me in the cynical camp, I'd contend that much like many other governing bodies in other sports, MLB doesn't actually care about being proactive on the matter but that it just wants to appear forcefully reactive when necessary.

If I want to be really cynical, I'll tell you everything we've been watching for the last 20 years is a complete farce. Half the NFL is on the junk, probably 40% of baseball and nobody wants to know what the Olympics are all about. And I'm not trying to be melodramatic here...the information is all out there should anyone wish to go find it.

Now, whether that actually matters and whether anyone actually cares...I'm not so sure. I think I do because I'm a fan of reality, but when the last clean Olympic medal winner in the 100m might well have been Calvin Smith in 1988, it's hard to take it seriously. Thing is, when so many fans become emotionally invested in the relatively meaningless endeavor that is sport...there's no need for any governing body anywhere to take things seriously. And MLB and NFL are at the top of that list in our country, and if we want to talk internationally, the IOC is the worst of all.

On good accord I have it from a major league pitcher who is a friend of a friend:

"If people knew what went on in MLB clubhouses they'd be stunned"
 
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Re: 2013 Milwaukee Brewers - Cheaters, Underachievers and Disappointments Oh My!

I really don't want to clutter up this thread, but Braun aside it is indeed a fascinating topic. It's not quite as simple as just signing things over to WADA, though. WADA is more or less a governing body that implements a code, and governing bodies of sports can either choose to become signatories of the code or not. In the case of sports that are represented in the Olympics they more or less have to sign on, though enforcement of said code runs a real gamut depending on the governing body that signed on.

WADA does do some limited testing in its own right, but it's usually highly targeted. The real testing will come from either a national anti-doping body (USADA, CONI, AFLD, etc.) or at times from the organizer of an event. ASO handling testing in the Tour de France would be an example of this. The whole thing is a mess, but the real takeaway here is that WADA is an organizational structure that sets guidelines and standards and works with other agencies and entities to help properly enforce those guidelines and standards.

For all the good that is in WADA, the entire system is corrupt thanks to monetary, nationalistic, and all sorts of other reasons that it would take a book to explain.

As for MLB, it's free to become a WADA signatory any time it chooses, but it doesn't. Some might say this is because the union is being constrictive in its stance, others who are more cynical would say it's because MLB management doesn't actually care enough to draw a hard line. If you plant me in the cynical camp, I'd contend that much like many other governing bodies in other sports, MLB doesn't actually care about being proactive on the matter but that it just wants to appear forcefully reactive when necessary.

If I want to be really cynical, I'll tell you everything we've been watching for the last 20 years is a complete farce. Half the NFL is on the junk, probably 40% of baseball and nobody wants to know what the Olympics are all about. And I'm not trying to be melodramatic here...the information is all out there should anyone wish to go find it.

Now, whether that actually matters and whether anyone actually cares...I'm not so sure. I think I do because I'm a fan of reality, but when the last clean Olympic medal winner in the 100m might well have been Calvin Smith in 1988, it's hard to take it seriously. Thing is, when so many fans become emotionally invested in the relatively meaningless endeavor that is sport...there's no need for any governing body anywhere to take things seriously. And MLB and NFL are at the top of that list in our country, and if we want to talk internationally, the IOC is the worst of all.

On good accord I have it from a major league pitcher who is a friend of a friend:

"If people knew what went on in MLB clubhouses they'd be stunned"
Thanks again. I wouldn't worry about cluttering up the thread. I think it's germane to the discussion of Brewers baseball in light of recent events. But if you feel like imparting more PED wisdom outside the thread, I believe you can send me an email through my profile.

You can probably place me in the most cynical category concerning MLB, especially considering how they used the steroid era to recover and thrive after the strike and now want to 'clean up the game' or at least appear to make an effort. Ideally, I want to see a completely clean sport, but it seems to be a constant arms race between testers and testees ( :p ).
 
Re: 2013 Milwaukee Brewers - Cheaters, Underachievers and Disappointments Oh My!

Sean Halton down, Rob Wooten up.
 
Re: 2013 Milwaukee Brewers - Cheaters, Underachievers and Disappointments Oh My!

... but it seems to be a constant arms race between testers and testees ( :p ).

Not in MLB and NFL. Those leagues very recently decided to allow blood testing. The testes in those leagues with any sort of intelligence were destroying the testers.
 
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