2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

[FreshFish]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Yes, Obama gave lip service to not politicizing OBL. Yes, to absolutely nobody's surprise, he politicized it. And the only people who really have a problem with it are people who are already firmly in Romney's camp.

I suppose your use of "really" thus disqualifies me somewhat.....I don't "really" have a "problem" with it so much as I find the way he is going about it to be a bit, um, unseemly? Tacky? Immature? I can't quite find the right word. Of course he would politicize it, I just expected a bit more dignified version; this preening search for adulation just grates on my nerves like fingernails on a chalkboard. A bit of false modesty would be nice, even if insincere.






I'm not "firmly" in Romney's camp as I'm not "firmly" committed to either major party candidate; I'm more of the "first, do no harm" school which has me leaning toward Romney because once we cede liberty for security we are no more secure than we were before yet he have less liberty to show for it. Spending has to be brought under control, the dollar is losing its status as world currency (this is the single biggest ticking time bomb we face, closely followed closely by the explosion in interest on the national debt once interest rates revert to the mean) and yet the Senate has not even voted on a budget in nearly three years now. How about politicizing a few suggestions on how to approach these problems??? all I hear is how the other side's approach is "mean," with resounding silence on what the Dem's approach might be except to tax millionaires and billionaires which is like melting a snowball to fill an empty swimming pool.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I believe it was one of Nixon's Oval Office Nazis (Haldeman? Erlichmann?) who coined the phrase "maximizing the incumbancy." So what His Fieldmarshallness is doing is pretty much par for the course. In '04, however, the MSM were "shocked, shocked" that W had included some brief scenes of 911 in a campaign spot. And sent reporters out to document the "outrage."

Now, His Guderianness creates a lengthy campaign video taking credit for killing OBL and claiming Romney wouldn't have issued the order. To strengthen that notion, former President William J. Clinton (d-Sewer) is trotted out. The irony here, of course, is that Clinton actually did have a chance to get OBL and passed, because he didn't have an indictment, or Jack McCoy said the case was weak or something.

As usual, it's not what His Pattonness is doing, it's the supine performance of the MSM, fresh off their triumph of attempting to turn George Zimmerman into Byron de La Beckwith, who just can't bring themselves to even mention the matter. "Why, we have far more important photo ops to report on than this."

If I were advising His Blitzkriegness, I'd endorse this strategy. However, there's a point where it might backfire. Somebody had a column yesterday suggesting this is a bit like Nixon taking credit for Apollo 11.This is precisely why incumbents are so difficult to beat. In '64 LBJ took the wraps off the SR-71, which Goldwater knew about, to prove what a manly man he was. Because winng re-election was far more important than any national security considerations.

Harry Truman was right, "The buck stops here." Is it fair for His Wermachtness to take credit for killing OBL? Probably no more or less so than for Carter to get the blame for the failure of the mission to rescue the hostages in Iran.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

It is shocking that a president would politicize foreign policy, with our brave lads' lives on the line.

Clever, but not exactly the same. When Nixon took the oath, there were 600,000 Americans already in Vietnam, not a single one of whom he'd had anything to do with sending there. It was two successive Democratic administrations that got us "waist deep in the big muddy," not Nixon. And there were two different scenarios for ending our involvement there. "Bugging out," or trying to end it with some honor. Al Gore's father was asked how should we get out of Vietnam. And in one of those nuanced answers for which libs are famous, said: "in boats." In this spot, Nixon wasn't taking credit for anything. He was, however, offering an alternative to "more of the same," and "pulling the chicken switch."

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

How about politicizing a few suggestions on how to approach these problems??? all I hear is how the other side's approach is "mean," with resounding silence on what the Dem's approach might be except to tax millionaires and billionaires which is like melting a snowball to fill an empty swimming pool.

You answered your own question. Obama has been politicizing answers to these problems, and then the GOP wails about "class warfare" or creates a diversionary argument that "even if you taxes billionaires at 100% you wouldn't fix the deficit" which completely obfuscates the point, deliberately.

Obama's domestic policies are far too conservative for me, but they are all he could accomplish in an environment where the Congressional left is centrist and the Congressional right is insane. I would love it if he put out a true "class warfare" policy like FDR and have always thought he ought to, since the Cons spit blood no matter what he says. I'm sure we'll be hearing a lot more about solutions to the problems during the campaign, and I'm sure the righties will either ignore them or freak out, depending on what their focus groups tell them to do that morning. The one thing they won't do is honestly engage, which is a shame, since they are theoretically supposed to have the country's interests at heart and not just care about their wrinkled old asses.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

You answered your own question. Obama has been politicizing answers to these problems, and then the GOP wails about "class warfare" or creates a diversionary argument that "even if you taxes billionaires at 100% you wouldn't fix the deficit" which completely obfuscates the point, deliberately.

Obama's domestic policies are far too conservative for me, but they are all he could accomplish in an environment where the Congressional left is centrist and the Congressional right is insane. I would love it if he put out a true "class warfare" policy like FDR and have always thought he ought to, since the Cons spit blood no matter what he says. I'm sure we'll be hearing a lot more about solutions to the problems during the campaign, and I'm sure the righties will either ignore them or freak out, depending on what their focus groups tell them to do that morning. The one thing they won't do is honestly engage, which is a shame, since they are theoretically supposed to have the country's interests at heart and not just care about their wrinkled old asses.

The Congressional Black Caucus is "centrist?" Do tell. Remember, only Republicans use focus groups. And only Republicans craft their message accordingly. What color is the sky in your world?

 

[FreshFish]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Obama has been politicizing answers to these problems,.

To quote Lowell George and Little Feat,

"Don't bogart that joint, my friend, pass it over to me.
You've been holding on to it, and I sure could use a hit."


(there's a nice a capella version on Waiting for Columbus )

Sorry, increasing taxes on "millionaires and billionaires" is not a solution to our spending problems. Please point me in the direction of any "answer" at all to the spending problem that BO has proposed, as I guess I must have missed it.....

Oh, right, cut spending on the military, now that Osama's dead, we don't need an army any more, eh?

 

[huskyfan]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

the mister, being a military type, has several friends in high or formerly high positions. talking stars. he recently received an email claiming the USA could be losing it's air dominance. hope that isn't true. it would rock our world.

 

[bronconick]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

If we are, it's because of some sort of paradigm shift in air supremacy away from jets to something else in warfare that completely bypasses our military leaders. The F-15 still has something like a 110 to 0 air to air record and the F-22 slaughters the F-15's in simulated combats and exercises. That's ignoring the introduction of the F-35's later this decade and the continued improvement of UAV's to attack targets on their own.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I did not see the Clinton commercial playing up Obama's order to get Osama....supposedly Clinton says

"Suppose the Navy SEALs had gone in there. . . . Suppose they'd been captured or killed. The downside would have been horrible for him." with "him" = Obama.

If this is what Slick Willie actually did say.....WOW!

"The consequences would have been horrible for Obama"??? What about the consequences for the SEALS, Bill????

Egads.

This is what I was trying to get at when I said I was not bothered nearly so much by politicizing the Osama raid as much as I was annoyed at the sophomoric way in which it was being done.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I did not see the Clinton commercial playing up Obama's order to get Osama....supposedly Clinton says

"Suppose the Navy SEALs had gone in there. . . . Suppose they'd been captured or killed. The downside would have been horrible for him." with "him" = Obama.

If this is what Slick Willie actually did say.....WOW!

"The consequences would have been horrible for Obama"??? What about the consequences for the SEALS, Bill????

Egads.

This is what I was trying to get at when I said I was not bothered nearly so much by politicizing the Osama raid as much as I was annoyed at the sophomoric way in which it was being done.

I winced at that one too...

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I did not see the Clinton commercial playing up Obama's order to get Osama....supposedly Clinton says

"Suppose the Navy SEALs had gone in there. . . . Suppose they'd been captured or killed. The downside would have been horrible for him." with "him" = Obama.

If this is what Slick Willie actually did say.....WOW!

"The consequences would have been horrible for Obama"??? What about the consequences for the SEALS, Bill????

Egads.

This is what I was trying to get at when I said I was not bothered nearly so much by politicizing the Osama raid as much as I was annoyed at the sophomoric way in which it was being done.

I got no problem with it. The Seals were doing their job. The President was the one making the decision. I don't see why that's so hard to fathom. And as Jon Stewart proved last night the President gave plenty of deference to Seal Team 6.

It's not like Obama flew on a Fighter Jet to an aircraft carrier with a big sign that said "Mission Accomplished".

 

[Old Pio]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

If we are, it's because of some sort of paradigm shift in air supremacy away from jets to something else in warfare that completely bypasses our military leaders. The F-15 still has something like a 110 to 0 air to air record and the F-22 slaughters the F-15's in simulated combats and exercises. That's ignoring the introduction of the F-35's later this decade and the continued improvement of UAV's to attack targets on their own.

I was in the AF when they rolled out the F-15. It was impressive then. And still is. I'm guessing that e-mail was more concerned about us voluntarily vacating our position of pre-eminence by failing to fund new systems, rather than somebody (China?) closing the gap. We're on our fourth generation of stealth planes. Nobody else is on the first generatiion. We're developing Prompt Global Strike, which would enable POTUS to strike anywhere in the world within an hour, without using nukes. Think about that the next time the Norks roll out a missile they claim can hit the United States. "Oh yeah, well it could have hit the United States, but not anymore."

We appear to be moving in the direction of taking men out of the planes. But I'm not sure that would "completely bypass our military leaders." Who would be in charge? Health and Human Services? Anyway, I'm confident that e-mail paints an unrealistically pessimistic picture.

Nobody ever asks for a rematch against the United States Air Force. That's because they're all dead.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I'm guessing that e-mail was more concerned about us voluntarily vacating our position of pre-eminence by failing to fund new systems, rather than somebody (China?) closing the gap.

I'm guessing that e-mail was astro-turfing either from contractors or politicians pushing the old "hollow navy" chestnut.

You have far more AF experience than I do, but the guys I talk to who are in the AF say we are farther ahead of China than China is ahead of Burkina Faso.

(Of course, the guys I talk to who are in the AF also say the Navy should have been mothballed in 1968, so consider the source. )

 

[Old Pio]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I got no problem with it. The Seals were doing their job. The President was the one making the decision. I don't see why that's so hard to fathom. And as Jon Stewart proved last night the President gave plenty of deference to Seal Team 6.

It's not like Obama flew on a Fighter Jet to an aircraft carrier with a big sign that said "Mission Accomplished".

Yup. And you guys are still b*tching about that all these years later. But when His Prussianness does something several orders of magnitude worse, it turns out to be Bush's fault. Or at least justified by Bush. Again.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I'm guessing that e-mail was astro-turfing either from contractors or politicians pushing the old "hollow navy" chestnut.

You have far more AF experience than I do, but the guys I talk to who are in the AF say we are farther ahead of China than China is ahead of Burkina Faso.

That sounds about right. The biggest problem with defense planning is anticipating what the needs and threats are going to be 20 years down the road.

As to the Navy, I'm sorry budget constraints caused us to retire all four of the Iowas. They're expensive, no doubt. But I see one of them as the seaborne equivalent of AF One. When that bad boy comes crawling over the horizon, everybody knows what's up. No ambiguity.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

That sounds about right. The biggest problem with defense planning is anticipating what the needs and threats are going to be 20 years down the road.

That's the fun part. I'm sure in 1925 the conventional wisdom was that the next world war would be won by dreadnoughts the size of cities.

I read somebody somewhere saying "a UAV the size of a desk will be taken down by 10 UAVs the size of a model airplane, which will be taken down by 100 UAVs the size of a paper clip, which will be taken down by 1000 UAVs the size of a miniscrew..."

 

[bronconick]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

We appear to be moving in the direction of taking men out of the planes. But I'm not sure that would "completely bypass our military leaders." Who would be in charge? Health and Human Services? Anyway, I'm confident that e-mail paints an unrealistically pessimistic picture.

Nobody ever asks for a rematch against the United States Air Force. That's because they're all dead.

The only thing I could think of would have been some sort of ground to air "hyper missile" where they go 20x the speed of sound and close on our planes too fast for us to do much about it, and someone magically developed them and a) we didn't because we viewed it as impossible or not important and b) we didn't notice someone was testing such a thing.

That kind of "bypass of our military leaders". The idea is so unlikely that if it occurred, I'd almost accuse the other nation of secretly making contact with an advanced alien race.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

That's the fun part. I'm sure in 1925 the conventional wisdom was that the next world war would be won by dreadnoughts the size of cities.

Reminds me of an old (by my standards) classic (requires JSTOR access)
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2538636?uid=3739600&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21100765035951

 

[Old Pio]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

The only thing I could think of would have been some sort of ground to air "hyper missile" where they go 20x the speed of sound and close on our planes too fast for us to do much about it, and someone magically developed them and a) we didn't because we viewed it as impossible or not important and b) we didn't notice someone was testing such a thing.

That kind of "bypass of our military leaders". The idea is so unlikely that if it occurred, I'd almost accuse the other nation of secretly making contact with an advanced alien race.

We do tend to notice these things, don't we? Even so, every time the balloon goes up, we get ugly surprises. IED's for instance. No matter how much planning we do.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

That's the fun part. I'm sure in 1925 the conventional wisdom was that the next world war would be won by dreadnoughts the size of cities.

I read somebody somewhere saying "a UAV the size of a desk will be taken down by 10 UAVs the size of a model airplane, which will be taken down by 100 UAVs the size of a paper clip, which will be taken down by 1000 UAVs the size of a miniscrew..."

Back in the 80's we were very concerned about the Soviet navy, particularly a new class, the Kirov cruisers. Tom Clancy did a column quoting a Los Angeles attack submarine skipper (think Bart Mancuso in "Hunt for Red October") as saying when he sees a Kirov class cruiser, he sees a Navy Cross waiting to happen.

Any day you can work "dreadnought" into a post is a good day.