13 Rules for Hockey Parents Everywhere

[OnMAA]

Re: 13 Rules for Hockey Parents Everywhere

I do not agree with this rule:

8. Whenever possible, trade in your kids' ice skates and buy used skates, especially during those growing years and even if you can afford to buy new skates every six months. Your kids don't need $180 skates and a $100 stick no matter what your tax bracket is. They will not make them better players.

I feel people tend to buy skates that are toooooo Big and they sacrifice this year for next year. After brief explanation to the parents of why I hate this theory and being in a high intensity
skating class hmmmm they will pick up bad habits and or will not be able to break these bad habits.

For girls its very important to get it right quick because they slate these kids
earlier than boys.

At age 12 you are picked at least in New England. On the boys side not so fast you have time.

When our kids were younger, Novice thru Peewee, used to buy them "high end and little used" used skates. This way for half the cost of the full price it allowed me to buy them at the right size and change them over more frequently while their feet were growing. One kid was in Bauers all the way, the other in CCMs for a long time, always staying with the same brand for each kid.

My experience is that as long as you go to a shop with the right pro doing the fitting, this works well. The Owner and lead hockey person at the store we went to were both experienced subject matter experts in the trade. Always made sure we were served by one or the other.

It was amazing to me to see the amount of kids on the ice with skates at least one size too big at the start of the season during tryouts.

 

[ushockey]

Re: 13 Rules for Hockey Parents Everywhere

No where in #8 does it say that you should buy used skates that are 2 sizes too big. This shouldn't happen whether you buy new or used skates. We found that our skate sizes were usually 1 full size smaller than our shoe sizes when they fit correctly.

Over sharpening can be another waste of money. In general I would sharpen my young kids skates once a month as long as they weren't skating outside. Outdoor ice really dulls skates fast. Even then one of my children would say her skates didn't need sharpening. In fact kids that are just learning to skate should have their skates sharpened in a fairly flat grind so they will learn to edge properly when turning . This will also make learning to stop much easier for the new skater who isn't fighting that deep hollow ground skate. Think of a deep (1/2" or less) hollow ground skate as a sharp knife blade. Who here could learn to stop on a knife blade? Some of us old guys learned to skate before skates were hollow ground. We learned to edge more to handle a less sharp blade and also learned to stop much easier. Of course a flat ground skate gets dull much faster than todays hollow ground ones.

I disagree with the claim that todays skates allow a more natural skating style. In my opinion, as an old long time coach, todays skates are too stiff to allow players to learn to edge properly when they don't have the strength to slightly bend their ankles. It used to be critical that skates were tied tight to get the stiffness you needed from them. With todays skates you hardly need to tighten them and they are already stiff. This doesn't allow you to have any flexability to adjust the stiffness in skates. Many of todays younger skaters look like they are skating on a rigid extension of their leg.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: 13 Rules for Hockey Parents Everywhere

No where in #8 does it say that you should buy used skates that are 2 sizes too big. This shouldn't happen whether you buy new or used skates. We found that our skate sizes were usually 1 full size smaller than our shoe sizes when they fit correctly.

Over sharpening can be another waste of money. In general I would sharpen my young kids skates once a month as long as they weren't skating outside. Outdoor ice really dulls skates fast. Even then one of my children would say her skates didn't need sharpening. In fact kids that are just learning to skate should have their skates sharpened in a fairly flat grind so they will learn to edge properly when turning . This will also make learning to stop much easier for the new skater who isn't fighting that deep hollow ground skate. Think of a deep (1/2" or less) hollow ground skate as a sharp knife blade. Who here could learn to stop on a knife blade? Some of us old guys learned to skate before skates were hollow ground. We learned to edge more to handle a less sharp blade and also learned to stop much easier. Of course a flat ground skate gets dull much faster than todays hollow ground ones.

I disagree with the claim that todays skates allow a more natural skating style. In my opinion, as an old long time coach, todays skates are too stiff to allow players to learn to edge properly when they don't have the strength to slightly bend their ankles. It used to be critical that skates were tied tight to get the stiffness you needed from them. With todays skates you hardly need to tighten them and they are already stiff. This doesn't allow you to have any flexability to adjust the stiffness in skates. Many of todays younger skaters look like they are skating on a rigid extension of their leg.

That is because they have chosen a skate that is too stiff for their ability. Bauer for example has several degrees of stiffness in their lineup. Choose accordingly. Also, you probably also remember guys taping the crap out of the ankle area of their skates in the old days. I bet you can guess why?
Kids need support in the ankle area. I bet you have seen plenty of the young ones skating with one or both of their ankles almost dragging on the ice. That's not just because their skates are too big.

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: 13 Rules for Hockey Parents Everywhere

That is because they have chosen a skate that is too stiff for their ability. Bauer for example has several degrees of stiffness in their lineup. Choose accordingly. Also, you probably also remember guys taping the crap out of the ankle area of their skates in the old days. I bet you can guess why?
Kids need support in the ankle area. I bet you have seen plenty of the young ones skating with one or both of their ankles almost dragging on the ice. That's not just because their skates are too big.

Exactly. All skates... Bauer, CCM/Reebok, Easton, Mission, etc have varying degrees of stiffness in their skate lines and normally the price point is in direct relationship to the degree of stiffness. The best way to tell the stiffness of the skate is to try and bend the tendon gaurd back away from the skate. The tendon gaurd isn't just there to protect, it's main purpose is to add stability...hence in the old days that's why guys would heavily tape there, to try and stiffen the leather that was normally found there.

I have fitted skates professionally on and off, for a number of years and can say with a degree of certainty another reason kids skate in what we call ankle down... is that they are Pronate. Pronation is common in around 80% of the population from 6 to 60. The condition is really "flat feet" or very little arch in the foot. This condition can effect the knee joint which gives a slightly knock kneed look. The best way I've found to fix this condition in a skate is to buy a pair of Superfeet insoles which, when fitted properly in the skate raises the arch and corrects the alignment of the lower body and allows for a more comfortable, natural stride in what's referred to as the nuetral position. This alignment is essential in developing the stride especially in young skaters. I happen to pronate rather badly and wear these in my skates, golf & casual shoes and have been extremley happy with the product.

Visit www.superfeet.com to learn more. (I am not an emplyee nor due I own any stock in Superfeet)

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: 13 Rules for Hockey Parents Everywhere

Exactly. All skates... Bauer, CCM/Reebok, Easton, Mission, etc have varying degrees of stiffness in their skate lines and normally the price point is in direct relationship to the degree of stiffness. The best way to tell the stiffness of the skate is to try and bend the tendon gaurd back away from the skate. The tendon gaurd isn't just there to protect, it's main purpose is to add stability...hence in the old days that's why guys would heavily tape there, to try and stiffen the leather that was normally found there.

I have fitted skates professionally on and off, for a number of years and can say with a degree of certainty another reason kids skate in what we call ankle down... is that they are Pronate. Pronation is common in around 80% of the population from 6 to 60. The condition is really "flat feet" or very little arch in the foot. This condition can effect the knee joint which gives a slightly knock kneed look. The best way I've found to fix this condition in a skate is to buy a pair of Superfeet insoles which, when fitted properly in the skate raises the arch and corrects the alignment of the lower body and allows for a more comfortable, natural stride in what's referred to as the nuetral position. This alignment is essential in developing the stride especially in young skaters. I happen to pronate rather badly and wear these in my skates, golf & casual shoes and have been extremley happy with the product.

Visit www.superfeet.com to learn more. (I am not an emplyee nor due I own any stock in Superfeet)

A guy in the know, awesome. Why do most manufacturers besides Graf have totally flat footpads if 80% have this problem. Doesn't make sense eh.... Seems to me there is an opportunity missed here, want to make some money? Let me know. PS... I am not a retailer, just a guy who has done his homework over the years.

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: 13 Rules for Hockey Parents Everywhere

A guy in the know, awesome. Why do most manufacturers besides Graf have totally flat footpads if 80% have this problem. Doesn't make sense eh.... Seems to me there is an opportunity missed here, want to make some money? Let me know. PS... I am not a retailer, just a guy who has done his homework over the years.

Good question. BTW I'm no expert...just old.

I've asked the big three why they don't follow suit with the footbeds and have been told anywhere from "We don't want to add weight" to "We're in the skate business not the footbed business"??

All manufacturers are in the race to come up with the sub 700 gram skate. CCM even toyed with the blade to get weight out incorporating their "Rocket Runner" blade which takes about 75 grams out of the blades. I fitted my old Tacks with the rocket runner holder and blades and must say I noticed a difference even though they are a pain in the arse to sharpen. I've also experimented with a new sharpening technique called the "FBV" cut which doesn't produce a round hollow but actually puts a flat bottom hollow on the skate blade. A number of NHLer's are using the RBV cut as they feel they can get improved glide with this style of sharpening. Each to his own.

 

[ushockey]

Re: 13 Rules for Hockey Parents Everywhere

I didn't know that skates were made with varying degrees of stiffness so thanks for the info. I do know that the last time I needed to buy new skates for myself I found that my usual skate company CCM instead of having forward lean built in as they have always had, although 30 and 40 years ago it was more pronounced, now leaned back more like the old Bauers. I found all of the skates so uncomfortable, and I knew that that plastic wasn't ever going to break in, I was able to find a new pair of old stock skates (about 15 years old) that fitted me.

As far as ankle skaters goes in new skaters I have found that to be greatly reduced over the years because of better skate support. My main concern was how do you teach a young skater to edge when they can not bend their ankles? I'm sure some of that might have been due to foot problems but it certainly wasn't from pronating which would make it easier to get that inside edge.

I'm sure some skaters did tape up their ankles to get more support but I don't ever remember seeing it. Could be my lack of memory of course. I do remember players putting tape on the toe to protect the leather toe.

 

[scores]

Re: 13 Rules for Hockey Parents Everywhere

I would say this the radius also comes into play.

I learned this from a figure skating coach (Russian) the guy can play hockey as well..

Figure skates are better to learn to skate in because there is more blade on the ice..he swears by this statement...

Anyway I can only tell you about the skaters I have come across and I do pull the parents aside and if they are strapped for cash I understand totally.

I do try to help them out.. I have friends in the business.

Take it for whats its worth.....

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: 13 Rules for Hockey Parents Everywhere

Good question. BTW I'm no expert...just old.

I've asked the big three why they don't follow suit with the footbeds and have been told anywhere from "We don't want to add weight" to "We're in the skate business not the footbed business"??

All manufacturers are in the race to come up with the sub 700 gram skate. CCM even toyed with the blade to get weight out incorporating their "Rocket Runner" blade which takes about 75 grams out of the blades. I fitted my old Tacks with the rocket runner holder and blades and must say I noticed a difference even though they are a pain in the arse to sharpen. I've also experimented with a new sharpening technique called the "FBV" cut which doesn't produce a round hollow but actually puts a flat bottom hollow on the skate blade. A number of NHLer's are using the RBV cut as they feel they can get improved glide with this style of sharpening. Each to his own.

Interesting. I have not heard about the FBV cut but I am very intrigued. I have basically stuck with a 5/8th cut for myself and my kids as I find that it's best for lateral movement, pivots etc. and it more or less eliminates that too sharp feel. The only down side is you have to sharpen often. If I am picturing it correctly in my mind does the FBV have two straight edges. You would think that would create a little instability but obviously it doesn't if pros are using it. What does FBV stand for and do you have any more information?

 

[Trillium]

Re: 13 Rules for Hockey Parents Everywhere

Interesting. I have not heard about the FBV cut but I am very intrigued. I have basically stuck with a 5/8th cut for myself and my kids as I find that it's best for lateral movement, pivots etc. and it more or less eliminates that too sharp feel. The only down side is you have to sharpen often. If I am picturing it correctly in my mind does the FBV have two straight edges. You would think that would create a little instability but obviously it doesn't if pros are using it. What does FBV stand for and do you have any more information?

FBV stands for flat bottom "v" cut--and it definitely does make a difference and you will notice the improvement in speed and agility. The first time out on the ice it will take a couple of minutes to get used to the different feel, and may have to experiment a bit to get the right combination of specs for you. Cost is a couple of dollars more than the old type of cut, but many find that the cut will also last a little longer to compensate. The following article is attached for reference.

http://www.blackstonesport.com/technology.cfm

Currently 20 NHL teams are now using this new system of sharpening.

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: 13 Rules for Hockey Parents Everywhere

Interesting. I have not heard about the FBV cut but I am very intrigued. I have basically stuck with a 5/8th cut for myself and my kids as I find that it's best for lateral movement, pivots etc. and it more or less eliminates that too sharp feel. The only down side is you have to sharpen often. If I am picturing it correctly in my mind does the FBV have two straight edges. You would think that would create a little instability but obviously it doesn't if pros are using it. What does FBV stand for and do you have any more information?

One problem that may be encountered is finding someone who has a Blackstone sharpener. For years Blademaster has cornered the market on commercial skate sharpening machines, most shops are running Blademaster and offer only the typical round hollow.

In order to replicate the contour on the wheel that is required for a FBV a special wheel dressing apparatus is required, one that only Blackstone has.
We run two Blademaster BR2000CVSV's but have recently added a Blackstone with the FBV contouring device to the lineup in an attempt to offer both style of cuts. So far the FBV has been steadily gaining popularity even though we charge a few dollars more for the flat bottom cut.

I see now that Blackstone is offering their "Spinner" wheel contouring device, Mag-50 as a stand alone retrofit to existing machines (Blademaster) so, in time the FBV cut should be available to everyone as it's popularity grows.

 

[ushockey]

Fbv

Fbv

Trillium,

That FBV is an interesting idea. Thanks for passing on the web site. I would love it if someone would do a scientific study to see how much it effects the glide. And while they were at it also study how much a 3/8th" radius compared to a 3/4" radius effects the glide.

They could build a sled with two blades and one large fixed ball bearing to act as the third point in the tripod. Put about 200lbs on it and get a consistent repeatable pushing devise to push it across both smooth new ice and rough snow covered old ice. Then measure total distance each time it is pushed and get enough trials to reduce other errors to make it accurate. Of course the blades would have to be parallel and have the same rocker, width etc..

I think it could be a significant difference both from different radiuses and FBV sharpenings.

I looked up the cost of a retrofit for the FBV and it is almost $2000 for just the wheel dressing fixture.

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: Fbv

Re: Fbv

Trillium,

That FBV is an interesting idea. Thanks for passing on the web site. I would love it if someone would do a scientific study to see how much it effects the glide. And while they were at it also study how much a 3/8th" radius compared to a 3/4" radius effects the glide.

They could build a sled with two blades and one large fixed ball bearing to act as the third point in the tripod. Put about 200lbs on it and get a consistent repeatable pushing devise to push it across both smooth new ice and rough snow covered old ice. Then measure total distance each time it is pushed and get enough trials to reduce other errors to make it accurate. Of course the blades would have to be parallel and have the same rocker, width etc..

I think it could be a significant difference both from different radiuses and FBV sharpenings.

I looked up the cost of a retrofit for the FBV and it is almost $2000 for just the wheel dressing fixture.

If you think about it...one has to go back to the basic fundementals of what's happening down there. The hollow produces a thin film of water to develop between the blade and the ice by way of friction. This in turn allows for more glide. In my mind the more surface area the hollow has (FBV) the more water it creates and subsequently the more glide one gets. Prob a lot of people out there a lot smarter than I could add to the theory...let's just not tell USA Hockey about it for a couple of months or so....

PS: Although the retrofit is $2000.00 an entire machine is in the $20,000.00 CDN. range.

 

[ARM]

Re: Fbv

Re: Fbv

The hollow produces a thin film of water to develop between the blade and the ice by way of friction. This in turn allows for more glide. In my mind the more surface area the hollow has (FBV) the more water it creates and subsequently the more glide one gets.

In Physics 101, on most problems one assumes no friction or wind resistance. The reason -- friction gets complicated in a hurry. When you speak of increasing glide, what you really are doing is decreasing drag or friction. This is accomplished by decreasing the coefficient of friction between the blade and the ice. How much is it decreased? That is nontrivial, because variables such as the properties of the ice (how smooth, how much snow is on it, its temperature), the temp of the air above it, the composition of the blade, the shape of the blade, depth of the groove, mass of the skater, speed at which the blade is traveling, and length of the glide. Then the skater picks the skate up, and when she sets it down again, there is no water and the equation begins again. So I'd think it would be a function of time in the glide, but concurrently, the condition of the ice is constantly evolving as a period progresses. A certain style of groove may be optimal at the drop of the puck, but not at the buzzer, or results may vary for 100 or 200 lb. skaters with differing top speeds. The bottom line is probably that if the skater likes a certain cut and feels more confident with it, then it is better.

 

[MikeAnderson]

Re: 13 Rules for Hockey Parents Everywhere

THREADJACKERS!

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Fbv

Re: Fbv

In Physics 101, on most problems one assumes no friction or wind resistance. The reason -- friction gets complicated in a hurry. When you speak of increasing glide, what you really are doing is decreasing drag or friction. This is accomplished by decreasing the coefficient of friction between the blade and the ice. How much is it decreased? That is nontrivial, because variables such as the properties of the ice (how smooth, how much snow is on it, its temperature), the temp of the air above it, the composition of the blade, the shape of the blade, depth of the groove, mass of the skater, speed at which the blade is traveling, and length of the glide. Then the skater picks the skate up, and when she sets it down again, there is no water and the equation begins again. So I'd think it would be a function of time in the glide, but concurrently, the condition of the ice is constantly evolving as a period progresses. A certain style of groove may be optimal at the drop of the puck, but not at the buzzer, or results may vary for 100 or 200 lb. skaters with differing top speeds. The bottom line is probably that if the skater likes a certain cut and feels more confident with it, then it is better.

Holy sh_t...If I took the time to test all these variables my career would be over. Very impressive though. I guess if you try it and don't prefer it you could lose a lot of the blade. Now what about pitch, would it have to be redone? Probably, this is getting complicated and or costly. As you say it's all about feel. Everyone is different hence the variables.

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: 13 Rules for Hockey Parents Everywhere

THREADJACKERS!

what in the he-double hockey sticks is this?

 

[MikeAnderson]

Re: 13 Rules for Hockey Parents Everywhere

what in the he-double hockey sticks is this?

A light-hearted jab at the fact that this thread has shifted dramatically from "advice for parents" to "skate-sharpening techniques."

Thus the .

I just felt the need to point at you.

Move along nothing to see here.

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: 13 Rules for Hockey Parents Everywhere

A light-hearted jab at the fact that this thread has shifted dramatically from "advice for parents" to "skate-sharpening techniques."

Thus the .

I just felt the need to point at you.

Move along nothing to see here.

OK, call me crazy but just thought maybe "skate sharpening techniques" might be some "advice for parents".

 

[OnMAA]

Re: 13 Rules for Hockey Parents Everywhere

OK, call me crazy but just thought maybe "skate sharpening techniques" might be some "advice for parents".

Exactly, perfect response and to add to it...last time I checked "Skate Sharpening" is directly related to the subject of Hockey.

How about the 13 rules of skate sharpening:

1 - Always go to the same place for skate sharpening.
2 - Never sharpen our skates away from home at a big event .
3 - Don't get your skates sharpened 5 minutes before the game.
4 - Always have a second pair of skates in your bag.
5 - Make sure your spare skates are sharpened.
5 - Mark the sharpening cut on the white plastic part of your blade
6 - Don't switch to a new sharpening cut before a game
7 - Never change your sharpening schedules/habits before a big event
8 - Make sure you always have enough blade left on your skate
9 - Sharpen new skates more frequently the first few times
10- Break in new skates during practices, not during games
11 - Make sure you have the handy sharpening hand tool in your bag
12 - Use your old skates (not your game skates) on the outdoor rink.
13 - Give your regular skate sharpening expert a X-mas card