116th Congress: Episode 1 - Trial by Fire

[Rover]

Re: 116th Congress: Episode 1 - Trial by Fire

I mean the folks who directed Democratic strategy and policy since the 1980s. They aided and abetted the country's march to plutocracy and got extremely personally wealthy doing it.

I am hoping the Young Dems (among whom may be 80-year olds) can't be bought. It's really that simple.

I think you're drifting a little bit again Kep. Keep your eyes on the prize. Finding mythical Dem boogeymen to argue against is a waste of time when we're dealing with Nazis on the other side. Its not worth our time to savage people who feel the top tax rate should be 50% or 60% instead of 70%. Lets vanquish the cult first.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 116th Congress: Episode 1 - Trial by Fire

It took the Republicans 20+ years to pull the gambit off. I hope the Democratic Base has the patience. They've never shown any at the ballot box.

The Republicans had plenty of victories on the way to their Final Solution. They've been kneecapping Roe since the day it became law. They've been selling their hypocritical austerity (cut middle class benefits, give the rich even more money) since Reagan.

We can be aspirational and also make steady gains. Our problem has been our opening bid is always watered down by the mealy mouthed caution of a political cast that is either (1) still in PTSD from Reagan's second term landslide or (2) just flat out paid off by the 1% to be the Washington Generals.

 

[Rover]

Re: 116th Congress: Episode 1 - Trial by Fire

Hard righters showed us what we can do. McConnell cowers in his shell because of a frothing base that will primary anybody who doesn't support crucifying Muslims and immigrant children on the National Mall. It doesn't matter that McConnell is an educated man who is horrified by the rightwing base. He is terrified of them. We can do the same. Single Payer or you're out. UBI or you're out. Reverse McCutcheon and Citizens United or you're out.

Aannnnd now you've gone insane. Universal Basic Income or you're out? Okay then. Nothing like handing power to the Republicans until the end of time if that's your attitude.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 116th Congress: Episode 1 - Trial by Fire

I think you're drifting a little bit again Kep. Keep your eyes on the prize. Finding mythical Dem boogeymen to argue against is a waste of time when we're dealing with Nazis on the other side. Its not worth our time to savage people who feel the top tax rate should be 50% or 60% instead of 70%. Lets vanquish the cult first.

I quite agree we have to Aldo Raine every Nazi first.

Your time will come, Rover, but likely not for decades. You can keep counting your money til then. Consider it my personal guarantee.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 116th Congress: Episode 1 - Trial by Fire

Aannnnd now you've gone insane. Universal Basic Income or you're out? Okay then. Nothing like handing power to the Republicans until the end of time if that's your attitude.

Old Democrats.

 

[Rover]

Re: 116th Congress: Episode 1 - Trial by Fire

Old Democrats.

Show me all the progressives who won competitive races in 2018? Not AOC who's district is 99% Dem but in swingy districts? Seems you want to govern with half of a coalition. Not a winning strategy.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 116th Congress: Episode 1 - Trial by Fire

Show me all the progressives who won competitive races in 2018? Not AOC who's district is 99% Dem but in swingy districts? Seems you want to govern with half of a coalition. Not a winning strategy.

That's the other problem.

 

[Rover]

Re: 116th Congress: Episode 1 - Trial by Fire

That's the other problem.

I'm not sure what's missing in Kep's life but I just don't get the notion that anybody one step to the right of Bernie Sanders should be considered the enemy along with the Republicans. Its stark raving insane. Furthermore it keeps setting the country back from the socialist utopia he aspires to as handing over total power to the GOP is always a total disaster. We all agree that taxes on the rich should be higher. Indeed, flaming closet conservatives like Barack Obama even raised taxes on the rich. We all agree that the feds should be expanding govt run healthcare. Flaming closet conservatives Obama and Clinton achieved this during their terms. We all agree in putting scientists instead of Exxon in charge of climate policy. There is very, very little daylight between anybody who calls themselves a Democrat anymore except for loony ideas like a universal basic income.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 116th Congress: Episode 1 - Trial by Fire

Show me all the progressives who won competitive races in 2018? Not AOC who's district is 99% Dem but in swingy districts? Seems you want to govern with half of a coalition. Not a winning strategy.

What I am saying is we should never win any election by more than 5 points. Every point above that is one point further we could have run to the left. So that means we run Manchin in WI and AOC in NYC. Right now it means we run Obama for the White House, but we do it as part of a national spectrum in which he is well into the right wing of our party.

We can run Scooby for President, Rover for Governor of Kansas, and Kepler for Mayor of Burlington, VT. But we should take every opportunity to keep moving leftwards across the full distribution of offices and candidacies, and that's how primaries help. We should be running Lunatic Left candidates for statewide offices in CA and building their resumes for national office.

And then we can do what the GOP does: during the general election just lie. Get into office, keep talking like a moderate but govern like a radical. As long as the people like your nice hair and avuncular manner they'll be comfortable with you.

Most of America is not ideological -- most voters have been programmed by a lifetime of TV and movies to see political figures in terms of tropes -- tough but fair, too smart and not down to earth, bombastic but honest, rich but never forgot where he came from -- all bullsh-t that has no reality but which they've been trained by scriptwriters and speech writers to respond to emotionally.

So tap those tropes, get into office, and then govern according to policies that help people. That's how you get UBI and Single Payer even though maybe they're not supported by 50% yet. Know how I know that? Because that's how we got a Plutocracy that 95% of the people hate.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 116th Congress: Episode 1 - Trial by Fire

I'm not sure what's missing in Kep's life but I just don't get the notion that anybody one step to the right of Bernie Sanders should be considered the enemy along with the Republicans. Its stark raving insane. Furthermore it keeps setting the country back from the socialist utopia he aspires to as handing over total power to the GOP is always a total disaster. We all agree that taxes on the rich should be higher. Indeed, flaming closet conservatives like Barack Obama even raised taxes on the rich. We all agree that the feds should be expanding govt run healthcare. Flaming closet conservatives Obama and Clinton achieved this during their terms. We all agree in putting scientists instead of Exxon in charge of climate policy. There is very, very little daylight between anybody who calls themselves a Democrat anymore except for loony ideas like a universal basic income.

You're not reading what I've written, or in any case you're not absorbing it. You're relying on the same old strawman argument that is used to ignore or patronize liberal positions by your friends in the DNC. I recall now that that's the main part of your shtick -- you argue against your fantasy image of an opponent rather than his actual words and positions. But that doesn't work in a medium where people can scroll back and see what each of us is really saying. So by all means keep embarrassing yourself.

I acknowledge that we can't run AOC everywhere. But you apparently have no ability to incorporate new data into your model. But in a way that's a perfect reflection of why the DNC is what it is, now. That is in a nutshell the difference between Old Dem and New Dem (we'll call it New because some of us sure aint Young). We're listening. You're dictating.

 

[Rover]

Re: 116th Congress: Episode 1 - Trial by Fire

You're not reading what I've written, or in any case you're not absorbing it. You're relying on the same old strawman argument that is used to ignore or patronize liberal positions by your friends in the DNC. I recall now that that's the main part of your shtick -- you argue against your fantasy image of an opponent rather than his actual words and positions. But that doesn't work in a medium where people can scroll back and see what each of us is really saying. So by all means keep embarrassing yourself.

I acknowledge that we can't run AOC everywhere. But you apparently have no ability to incorporate new data into your model. But in a way that's a perfect reflection of why the DNC is what it is, now. That is in a nutshell the difference between Old Dem and New Dem (we'll call it New because some of us sure aint Young). We're listening. You're dictating.

I am reading it but the problem is one side of your brain isn't talking to the other side. You will issue a call for unity, but then want it all on your terms. I personally don't want to elect politicians who are going to lie to me. If I did, I'd vote Republican. I'd be happy to continue this conversation because you're coming off as an angry extremist out of control loon.

The problem you have is a need for quick, feel good and flashy policy statements that will go nowhere. The brains of Dem voters are wired differently than Republicans. We want progress, not rhetoric. We could see the progress of the Clinton and Obama administrations and appreciate the hard fought battles won. You like some sort of masochist want to torture yourself into believing that its been nothing but GOP victories for the last 40 years because it fits into your need to be a victim of some dastardly corporate-righty Dem military industrial complex. Your take is old, boring, well worn and useless if you are to achieve the progressive goals you say you desire. Other than that I'm sure you're a great guy!

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: 116th Congress: Episode 1 - Trial by Fire

What I am saying is we should never win any election by more than 5 points. Every point above that is one point further we could have run to the left.

Understand the sentiment. But disagree. First, the electoral college means a 5 point win is a nailbiter.

You have to have a moderate agenda that can convince the large center of both parties in order to maximize success - Obama and Clinton and not Carter. We know Bernie. He'll push for extreme policies that moderates of both parties won't tolerate, they won't pass and he'll get into fights with the center. Sure, the first goal is to get to the presidency...but from there its better to have a successful administration than one that's further to the left yet that can't get anything done and isolates himself as he fights with the middle.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: 116th Congress: Episode 1 - Trial by Fire

Bernie's positions are pretty moderate in terms of global politics and many of his ideas have become mainstream within the dem party. There's a reason Kamala, Booker, and others have all pretty much adopted Medicare for all and Booker even proposed the job guarantee. You're basically not even a viable candidate if you're not pushing the first one at this point.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: 116th Congress: Episode 1 - Trial by Fire

Bernie's positions are pretty moderate in terms of global politics and many of his ideas have become mainstream within the dem party. There's a reason Kamala, Booker, and others have all pretty much adopted Medicare for all and Booker even proposed the job guarantee. You're basically not even a viable candidate if you're not pushing the first one at this point.

There's still a moderate side to the Dem party and a side further to the left.

You're right about many of these candidates. But liberals from Vermont, NYC, SF and Mass are not representative of the full Dem party. I do think some like Harris would make a fine POTUS. Although she's still to the left, at least she's an intellectual rather than a firebrand. And I like an intellectuals chances of success over that of a firebrand.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 116th Congress: Episode 1 - Trial by Fire

I am reading it but the problem is one side of your brain isn't talking to the other side. You will issue a call for unity, but then want it all on your terms.

I'm calling for unity to defeat the fascist monster that is destroying our country. That's what we need right now and until that's done I'll play kissy kissy with the Plute-a-Dems and take the financial industry's money.

There will be plenty of time for The Purge after we've waxed the Nazis.

 

[mookie1995]

What I am saying is we should never win any election by more than 5 points. Every point above that is one point further we could have run to the left......

We should be running Lunatic Left candidates for statewide offices in CA and building their resumes for national office..

D should be shooting for 8pt wins and just forgetting CA

Take out CA and tD beat hilly 47.4% to 46.3%

Heck, pull out R lost causes NY and IL and tD wins 48.3% to 44.6%

Also remove those 3 states and turnout falls from 55.7% to 52.7%. Be afraid to motivator the whitey who didn’t vote!

......all these D voters and R has won 3 of last 5 presidential.

 

[Handyman]

Re: 116th Congress: Episode 1 - Trial by Fire

So then can we take out Texas too?

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

So then can we take out Texas too?

Lol. Funny how he didn’t include that

 

[Kepler]

Re: 116th Congress: Episode 1 - Trial by Fire

D should be shooting for 8pt wins and just forgetting CA

Take out CA and tD beat hilly 47.4% to 46.3%

Heck, pull out R lost causes NY and IL and tD wins 48.3% to 44.6%

Also remove those 3 states and turnout falls from 55.7% to 52.7%. Be afraid to motivator the whitey who didn’t vote!

......all these D voters and R has won 3 of last 5 presidential.

Let's forget the Slave States instead. At least CA pulls its own weight.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: 116th Congress: Episode 1 - Trial by Fire

Bernie's positions are pretty moderate in terms of global politics and many of his ideas have become mainstream within the dem party. There's a reason Kamala, Booker, and others have all pretty much adopted Medicare for all and Booker even proposed the job guarantee. You're basically not even a viable candidate if you're not pushing the first one at this point.

Comparing a Democratic candidate's policies (or those of Bernie) to those of candidates in countries more liberal than the US is not going to help a Democratic candidate's chances of winning office in the USA.

US CENTRIST VOTERS: We like purple!
YOU: Yeah, but turtles are green and brown.

Okay, terrific! Where does that get us in terms of winning an election?