Norwich Hockey - Time to Regroup

[dwb]

Curry was one of the best skating skilled teams I've seen at Norwich in quite awhile-hopefully the financial aide situation will improve so we don't keep losing good recruits to other teams--I think you will see this years team improve quite bit as the season progresses--

 

[KrbFlint]

Curry was one of the best skating skilled teams I've seen at Norwich in quite awhile-hopefully the financial aide situation will improve so we don't keep losing good recruits to other teams--I think you will see this years team improve quite bit as the season progresses--

Agreed, I fully expect consistent improvement over the course of the year.

 

[HawksHockey]

There is a few ways to look at this...

1. If Ellsworth's recruiting was as bad as this board believes, Dawes is not working with "his guys" yet. I would argue it isn't a "rebuild" but, nonetheless, the improvement - if it comes - isn't going to happen overnight.
2. The new reality that this board doesn't seem to want to accept is that with the addition of so many programs, Norwich will never again have the same kind of pull for the really good players that they enjoyed under McShane. It's my belief that some of the best players EVER at Norwich don't attend Norwich in today's climate due to the options available now
3. When the VP of Enrollment said to the head coaches, "you just have to accept you might not win for a while", she meant it. This really only affects hockey, football, and wrestling. The GNAC sports can survive with the available pool but hockey is expected to compete nationally, football is stuck in a conference they don't remotely have the resources to compete in, and wrestling is forced to compete against a much higher level of opponent than the GNAC sports.

Despite all this, as Prez said, I don't think it's panic button time. Yes, we probably saw that Norwich is not ready to be a national contender again yet, but they should 100% contend for the Little East title. Get back to winning 20+ games a year and recruiting will improve as much as it can.

*all opinion; I'm no expert

I think you've contradicted yourself in an earlier post where you stated, "D3 schools give no athletic aid, but it's not a secret that highly successful athletic programs almost always have great financial aid behind them."

If the GNAC sports "can survive" under the current financial aid modeling, as you've suggested, why not ice hockey, football, or wrestling? Unless you're saying the Norwich ice hockey teams receive different financial aid or benefits than the rest of the school? That would go against NCAA Division III regulations, so I don't see why finances are used as a crutch only for the ice hockey programs at Norwich.

 

[KrbFlint]

I think you've contradicted yourself in an earlier post where you stated, "D3 schools give no athletic aid, but it's not a secret that highly successful athletic programs almost always have great financial aid behind them."

If the GNAC sports "can survive" under the current financial aid modeling, as you've suggested, why not ice hockey, football, or wrestling? Unless you're saying the Norwich ice hockey teams receive different financial aid or benefits than the rest of the school? That would go against NCAA Division III regulations, so I don't see why finances are used as a crutch only for the ice hockey programs at Norwich.

I didn’t contradict myself at all. To the first point, I’ll use Hobart as an example. Same rink and coach they’ve had forever. What changed? Financial aid. I’m not suggesting any cheating but I am telling you they’ve been very aggressive with aid and it’s improved recruiting. A lot. Endicott, same deal. I’ve seen packages from these schools, and packages from Norwich.

I believe I addressed this in the initial post, but the reason I said the “GNAC sports can survive” is that the GNAC is a lower level conference. That’s indisputable. Hockey has to compete with the national powers. Football is all alone in the NEWMAC, which is one of the best conferences in the Northeast, and wrestling has to compete against higher level competition as well. So, with Norwich tightening the purse strings with financial aid, it has more of a negative impact on programs who have to face higher level competition. I don’t see why that would be confusing.

Side note: Norwich will be just fine in the LEC this year.

 

[Bog Hockey]

Flint, thoughts on tonight’s game?

 

[KrbFlint]

Flint, thoughts on tonight’s game?

I was a little nervous early. Cadets seemed timid and on their heels. It seemed to me that hitting the pipe midway through the first was like some epiphany that they could score goals and suddenly all the confidence was there and they were rolling. Nice to see fairly even distribution between young and “old” on the scoresheet.

Thought they took a couple dumb penalties early, but I think we’re gonna see that a bit this year.

Looking forward to tomorrow. NEC beat Curry in an exhibition so could be a very early LEC test for the boys.

 

[HawksHockey]

I didn’t contradict myself at all. To the first point, I’ll use Hobart as an example. Same rink and coach they’ve had forever. What changed? Financial aid. I’m not suggesting any cheating but I am telling you they’ve been very aggressive with aid and it’s improved recruiting. A lot. Endicott, same deal. I’ve seen packages from these schools, and packages from Norwich.

I believe I addressed this in the initial post, but the reason I said the “GNAC sports can survive” is that the GNAC is a lower level conference. That’s indisputable. Hockey has to compete with the national powers. Football is all alone in the NEWMAC, which is one of the best conferences in the Northeast, and wrestling has to compete against higher level competition as well. So, with Norwich tightening the purse strings with financial aid, it has more of a negative impact on programs who have to face higher level competition. I don’t see why that would be confusing.

Side note: Norwich will be just fine in the LEC this year.

The LEC is a step below the NEHC, and Norwich’s non-league schedule is underwhelming. You mentioned they “have to compete with national powers,” but they don’t have to do anything in non-league play they don’t want to.

Norwich hockey benefits from major advantages, including a storied history of success and one of the top three facilities in all of NCAA hockey.

If their past recruiting depended on precise financial aid packaging and not those things I just mentioned, the staff simply needs to be more strategic, just as other Norwich coaches and other Division III programs have been doing for years.

Hobart and Endicott have built strong, well-rounded athletics programs with success across multiple sports. Norwich, on the other hand, has not seen department-wide competitiveness outside its hockey and club rugby programs.

Now that “financial aid is gone,” as some claim, the hockey team’s success has dipped, yet other sports other than football (you have a valid point regarding NEWMAC) and wrestling (I guess?) show no major changes.

Considering Norwich’s Division III status and how teams are supposed to be equally funded and packaged across the board, I just find that interesting.

 

[KrbFlint]

The LEC is a step below the NEHC, and Norwich’s non-league schedule is underwhelming. You mentioned they “have to compete with national powers,” but they don’t have to do anything in non-league play they don’t want to.

Norwich hockey benefits from major advantages, including a storied history of success and one of the top three facilities in all of NCAA hockey.

If their past recruiting depended on precise financial aid packaging and not those things I just mentioned, the staff simply needs to be more strategic, just as other Norwich coaches and other Division III programs have been doing for years.

Hobart and Endicott have built strong, well-rounded athletics programs with success across multiple sports. Norwich, on the other hand, has not seen department-wide competitiveness outside its hockey and club rugby programs.

Now that “financial aid is gone,” as some claim, the hockey team’s success has dipped, yet other sports other than football (you have a valid point regarding NEWMAC) and wrestling (I guess?) show no major changes.

Considering Norwich’s Division III status and how teams are supposed to be equally funded and packaged across the board, I just find that interesting.

You're misunderstanding me, and I can't tell if it is intentional or not.

When I say Norwich has to compete with the national powers, I mean that NU recruits the best players they can because NU is a historically premier program. The kids Norwich wants are also wanted by Hobart, Endicott, Curry, etc.

When a SCHOOL gives aggressive financial aid, to everyone, athletes also get good aid - because they are students at the school giving the aid. When NORWICH (not Norwich Hockey) decides to scale back financial aid, Norwich STUDENTS and student-athletes are asked to pay more. When other top tier hockey SCHOOLS are giving more generous aid to their students, student-athletes tend to attend those schools because it is more affordable. It can quickly impact a sport like hockey because, even with the recent growth, there are not as many programs to choose from.

When the Cadets "took off" under McShane, there were probably less than 10 schools in the country who were serious about hockey and, obviously, Norwich chose to be one of them (rink, coach, etc). At the same time, coming off a significant enrollment dip in the 90s, NORWICH was giving fantastic financial aid to ALL students to boost enrollment. This benefitted athletics because Norwich was one of the most affordable private schools in the country. I believe it was 2003-2004 that every single sport at Norwich reached some form of postseason play.

When financial aid is not good, it particularly affects athletics because athletes are the ones who are being pursued by other schools. I keep using the example of the GNAC sports because, frankly, most of them can be relatively competitive with kids who are coming to Norwich anyway (Corps, ROTC, etc). The non-GNAC sports cannot recruit that way to have even a chance to compete. There's a reason why, as the landscape changed, the number of Corps guys on the hockey team dropped to 0-1 per year.

So no, in no way am I insinuating that Norwich was aiding athletes/hockey players improperly. I'm talking about institutional aid across the student body and how that affects athletics and recruiting.

 

[jerrynu26]

Big road trip early in the year. Babson has always been a close game for NU, and USM has been lately (in Gorham). Will be watching to see if the trajectory keeps its upward trend, or not.
I remain optimistic on the season (with realistic expectations of course-but a 3rd place finish in the league seems possible now).

Seeing so many members of the 2000 team last weekend was great. I hadn’t seen a few of them since that year, and great to reminisce with them. I did see the new coach has the Thanksgiving hosted dining out to the public again. A great way to connect the team and community. Although I’m too far away for that now, it was a special event. Also great to see Mike, Pat, and Bolder together again too!

Things are looking up!

 

[KrbFlint]

Big road trip early in the year. Babson has always been a close game for NU, and USM has been lately (in Gorham). Will be watching to see if the trajectory keeps its upward trend, or not.
I remain optimistic on the season (with realistic expectations of course-but a 3rd place finish in the league seems possible now).

Seeing so many members of the 2000 team last weekend was great. I hadn’t seen a few of them since that year, and great to reminisce with them. I did see the new coach has the Thanksgiving hosted dining out to the public again. A great way to connect the team and community. Although I’m too far away for that now, it was a special event. Also great to see Mike, Pat, and Bolder together again too!

Things are looking up!

Expecting a good weekend. I don't want to rain on the parade of positivity around the program right now, but a third place finish in the LEC - in my eyes - would be a massive letdown. I mean, we're coming off three straight second place finishes (to the eventual natl. champ) in the MUCH tougher NEHC. That was so unacceptable the coach got run out of town. After what I've seen from this team, I'll be disappointed with anything less than a 1 seed in the LEC tourney, bummed with a 2 seed, and borderline shocked with a 3rd place finish.

We'll obviously see what happens this weekend, but I'm anticipating an LEC "regular season championship". I can't see how third place is a weaker league is progress in any way. I think the roster is good and Dawes is a good coach. I'm high on the current team in the current league.

 

[jerrynu26]

Score 2 in the first two minutes of the second to tie, and then get a 5 on 3 for a minute and a half a minute later, and generate only two shots.
The team is still adapting to a new style of play, is a work in progress, and will take time to gel. Lots of energy last weekend, but this 4 game road trip will be telling. USM has been a split the last 2 years, UMB always tough at home.
Coaching is there, the new players are finding spots on the roster (although one is prob not there next year), improvements in offense easily seen.

 

[NU Pastime]

You're misunderstanding me, and I can't tell if it is intentional or not.

When I say Norwich has to compete with the national powers, I mean that NU recruits the best players they can because NU is a historically premier program. The kids Norwich wants are also wanted by Hobart, Endicott, Curry, etc.

When a SCHOOL gives aggressive financial aid, to everyone, athletes also get good aid - because they are students at the school giving the aid. When NORWICH (not Norwich Hockey) decides to scale back financial aid, Norwich STUDENTS and student-athletes are asked to pay more. When other top tier hockey SCHOOLS are giving more generous aid to their students, student-athletes tend to attend those schools because it is more affordable. It can quickly impact a sport like hockey because, even with the recent growth, there are not as many programs to choose from.

When the Cadets "took off" under McShane, there were probably less than 10 schools in the country who were serious about hockey and, obviously, Norwich chose to be one of them (rink, coach, etc). At the same time, coming off a significant enrollment dip in the 90s, NORWICH was giving fantastic financial aid to ALL students to boost enrollment. This benefitted athletics because Norwich was one of the most affordable private schools in the country. I believe it was 2003-2004 that every single sport at Norwich reached some form of postseason play.

When financial aid is not good, it particularly affects athletics because athletes are the ones who are being pursued by other schools. I keep using the example of the GNAC sports because, frankly, most of them can be relatively competitive with kids who are coming to Norwich anyway (Corps, ROTC, etc). The non-GNAC sports cannot recruit that way to have even a chance to compete. There's a reason why, as the landscape changed, the number of Corps guys on the hockey team dropped to 0-1 per year.

So no, in no way am I insinuating that Norwich was aiding athletes/hockey players improperly. I'm talking about institutional aid across the student body and how that affects athletics and recruiting.

I greatly appreciate this insight. To those familiar with Norwich, this makes a lot of sense.

If I may add a bit more of context…Norwich truly is a unique institution, even amongst military schools as it’s the only private one. That means the school is greatly impacted by public perception/funding of the military, which then dominos into other parts of the school.

The heart and soul of Norwich always has been and always will be the Corps. If you look back through Norwich history you’ll see that the school has always struggled in post-war eras. This goes all the way back to the 1870s where the school almost closed after the Civil War and even changed its name for a year or two to honor a major benefactor who kept the school open.

In connecting the dots with other people I know who have a bit of a look behind the curtain, I know that Corps enrollment is down. I’m assuming that a major reason Corps enrollment is down is because ROTC scholarships have greatly dried up in the post-GWOT era. When I was applying for ROTC scholarships in 2008 immediately following The Surge in Iraq, the Army was handing them out like candy. I arrived on campus as one of 100+ Rooks with a full-ride ROTC scholarship.

Nowadays those scholarships are, from my understanding, much more competitive. The number of Rooks arriving on campus with ROTC scholarships - full sticker-price straight into the coffers - now numbers in the dozens. This undoubtedly has had an effect on university finances, in addition to the COVID strain impacting many universities. Hence, the pullback on financial aid across the board because a major source of revenue - DOD scholarships - has been greatly reduced.

 

[Bog Hockey]

Anyone interested in sharing observations and thoughts on Friday’s and Saturday’s games?

 

[jerrynu26]

Anyone interested in sharing observations and thoughts on Friday’s and Saturday’s games?

I did on Fridays’s game.

On Saturday, NU had a lot more jump early, and carried through most of the game. Walcarius played well, and should see more action. Should have been a shutout, but nervousness caused a bad turnover late, resulting in a goal.
Still, it is obvious they are adapting to the new style of play.
Babson is still Avery good team, and Plymouth may have gotten back on track, so the conference title could be too far for this year.

 

[KrbFlint]

I did on Fridays’s game.

On Saturday, NU had a lot more jump early, and carried through most of the game. Walcarius played well, and should see more action. Should have been a shutout, but nervousness caused a bad turnover late, resulting in a goal.
Still, it is obvious they are adapting to the new style of play.
Babson is still Avery good team, and Plymouth may have gotten back on track, so the conference title could be too far for this year.

I was excited to see Walcarius. I heard he had recovered, and I've always thought he was a very good goaltender. McShane's teams usually had a solid one-two punch in net, so perhaps we can get back to that.