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POTUS 46.10: A New Hope

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dxmnkd316 said:
Which is kind of my point
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Which is still not the same as Afghanistan. We aren't in a post war situation the war was still going on. (last I checked they haven't capitulated) Germany, Japan and well Europe needed us there. (I think we have exhausted this argument :^) )

As you all point out the problem is Afghanistan is really not a thing. It is another example of the West trying to make the world easier to carve up for the Empire Builders. Arbitrary lines on a BS map that the people there don't recognize. Our military being there might be holding back the collapse but we can't do it forever and there will always be an excuse to stay. We made the same stupid mistake we did in Vietnam we chased victory even when it was all but certain the chances were slim. We became the Poker player who knows he has lost but can't stop himself from trying to win the big pot.

There is no ambiguity anymore...Trump set the date for withdrawal. The American People seemed to overwhelmingly support it and Biden honoring it. There was really only two choices left...fully occupy the way McCain wanted to (100 years!!) or set a hardline date and GTFO. There is no way we can get all the women and children out so get out what you can and let the whole thing collapse on its own timeline.
 
https://mobile.twitter.com/ryanstruy...33296310640649

BIDEN: "One more year, or five more years, of US military presence would not have made a difference if the Afghan military cannot or will not hold its own country. And an endless American presence in the middle of another country’s civil conflict was not acceptable to me."
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I notice that many of the people who called Biden like Dems "Warmonger" and hate "The Forever War" are now upset he is...ending the war. That makes me laugh.

edit: on twitter not here.
 
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Drew S. said:
I get that, I just wish we could have gotten the decent people out before those terrorist ***** take over. And I feel so horrible for the girls and women there.

Biden is the first politician I’ve ever donated money to and I like him a lot. Not really sure why people think I’m itching for a chance to criticize him.
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Don’t worry, Im sure George W is off somberly painting a new picture today to capture his sadness at the war he rushed to start
 
WRT Afghanistan being like Germany and/or Japan- IMHO, it comes down to the long term reaction to us being there. The "war" against the Taliban was pretty much over in 2004-ish. Sure, they were not fully gone, ever, but whatever. Lets even call in 2005. We are 16 years beyond that, right? Where was Germany and Japan in 1961? Other than the Cold War part, Germany and Japan were fully functioning countries by then, trying to put the war behind them, and not really holding much against the US by then. Convince me that it's anywhere the same. At some point, you have to realize that your action isn't wanted by the locals, they just want you gone. Fine, have it your way, be oppressed. At least we know that Taliban want us all dead instead of not really realizing that where they were actively plotting against us (the West, I mean, not just the US). This has been a colossal waste of time, money, and more- lives.

The worst thing about "the war on terror" is that there have been zero goals. Zero. None, nada, zilch, nothing. How do you know you win? The second worst thing about the wars have been we have zero plans on if we really take the country. None, nada, zilch, nothing. We go in, kill a lot of people, expect to "win the hearts and minds" only to just suffer for over a decade of people being angry we are there.

And the whole reason we went into Iraq was a total con job. Which actually lead to the uprising of some non-existent terrorists in the first place.

The "reason" we got into Afghanistan ended when Bin Laden was killed a decade ago. Why in the world have we stayed so long after that??? What a waste.

But at least Halliburton and other defense companies made billions of dollars of our tax dollars, right? And there was never a real bond drive to pay for this, other than borrowing a lot of money after cutting taxes. The biggest joke coming from this is that Republicans are some kind of fiscal conservative group of people- no, they are extremists putting us into trillions in debt for no reason at all other than to murder a bunch if people dark skinned and worshiping someone other than their god. Aka, they are Racists.
 
MichVandal said:
WRT Afghanistan being like Germany and/or Japan- IMHO, it comes down to the long term reaction to us being there. The "war" against the Taliban was pretty much over in 2004-ish. Sure, they were not fully gone, ever, but whatever. Lets even call in 2005. We are 16 years beyond that, right? Where was Germany and Japan in 1961? Other than the Cold War part, Germany and Japan were fully functioning countries by then, trying to put the war behind them, and not really holding much against the US by then. Convince me that it's anywhere the same. At some point, you have to realize that your action isn't wanted by the locals, they just want you gone. Fine, have it your way, be oppressed. At least we know that Taliban want us all dead instead of not really realizing that where they were actively plotting against us (the West, I mean, not just the US). This has been a colossal waste of time, money, and more- lives.

The worst thing about "the war on terror" is that there have been zero goals. Zero. None, nada, zilch, nothing. How do you know you win? The second worst thing about the wars have been we have zero plans on if we really take the country. None, nada, zilch, nothing. We go in, kill a lot of people, expect to "win the hearts and minds" only to just suffer for over a decade of people being angry we are there.

And the whole reason we went into Iraq was a total con job. Which actually lead to the uprising of some non-existent terrorists in the first place.

The "reason" we got into Afghanistan ended when Bin Laden was killed a decade ago. Why in the world have we stayed so long after that??? What a waste.

But at least Halliburton and other defense companies made billions of dollars of our tax dollars, right? And there was never a real bond drive to pay for this, other than borrowing a lot of money after cutting taxes. The biggest joke coming from this is that Republicans are some kind of fiscal conservative group of people- no, they are extremists putting us into trillions in debt for no reason at all other than to murder a bunch if people dark skinned and worshiping someone other than their god. Aka, they are Racists.
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The majority of folks in postwar Japan and Germany wanted to live in a western democracy, the majority of Afghans don’t.

There’s been plenty of articles written about it in recent years but one thing we really need to wrap our head round is not everyone wants what we do. You could make an argument a lot of the Trump crowd doesn’t even want a western style democracy. John Robinson would be so disappointed in us.
 
aparch said:
Religion ruins everything, doesn't it? The photos of 1960's Afghanistan have always stuck out to me. It was idealistic before Islamic Fundamentalism swooped in.
https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127914602
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How much of those pictures are just downtown Kabul, versus the rest of the country? Even during the last 20 years I'm sure the green zone (or equivalent) looked pretty modern versus going anywhere outside of the heaviest US/NATO presence.
 
And if Biden had refused to honor the agreement they would have destroyed him for that.

With that said it is rather inexcusable how badly this is going. It just seems disorganized and well...Trumpian. There is no way this won't be a black mark for Biden and his Foreign Policy fair or not.
 
Handyman said:
And if Biden had refused to honor the agreement they would have destroyed him for that.

With that said it is rather inexcusable how badly this is going. It just seems disorganized and well...Trumpian. There is no way this won't be a black mark for Biden and his Foreign Policy fair or not.
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Sorry, but this is how I see it would have happened no matter who was doing it and no matter in what way. Once the US troop move back, the Taliban will move in. After 20 years trying to build an Afghani armed forces to defend their country- we've totally wasted the effort. It's their country- at some point, they need to be responsible for it, too.
 
MichVandal said:
Sorry, but this is how I see it would have happened no matter who was doing it and no matter in what way. Once the US troop move back, the Taliban will move in. After 20 years trying to build an Afghani armed forces to defend their country- we've totally wasted the effort. It's their country- at some point, they need to be responsible for it, too.
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If we knew that why didn’t we have everyone out we wanted out? That’s what is frustrating.
 
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