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US Foreign Policy 3.0: We're The Mets of International Diplomacy

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Handyman said:
And what you are proposing is that everyone should sit back while Putin basically tries to will Ukraine off the map. The US has a long history of doing that which is why our reputation sucks. (ask any nation with people who are darker than White that have dealt with a genocide)

No one wants war but I am not going to sacrifice the Ukrainian People to prevent it either. History has shown you don't prevent war by letting evil people do evil things it just delays the inevitable and makes you look like a tacit accomplice.

Unless you think Putin is negotiating in good faith, which is well something...

If the Russians had any sort of actual military logistical power (which people seemed to brush off me saying didn't exist a few months ago) you would be seeing a humanitarian crisis on a massive scale. And you are basically saying all of the West and especially Europe should be willing to make said sacrifice in the name of peace. While I get that, and as an American I even can back the thought in theory...as someone whose every branch of a family tree comes from a country that did these very things to his ancestors I say "yeah no". We all have different points where the line is...for you apparently it is an attack on people that aren't in Ukraine. (i.e. NATO allies) For me it is when you violate the terms of your own ceasefire and start trying to kill indiscriminately. The problem is as long as someone like Putin is in charge there is no real right answer because none of us know how far he is willing to go. America/NATO/The West though can't talk about their high values and protecting innocent lives though and then just watch as Putin kills...that is hypocrisy of the highest order and it is the very thing Authoritarians count on as they seize control.

TL;DR: Lady G is still right Putin needs to get a case of "Window Cancer" so the world can breathe again. Good lord now I need a shower... ;^)
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"Washington has over a million guys whose only job is pushing for maximal military intervention at the drop of a pin and even most of them are dead quiet, what do you think that tells you about how good of an idea it is"
 
So how do you all propose we assist in the efforts to evacuate Ukranians who want out? Just watch them be slaughtered when Russia promises a clear path and then guns down Ukranians using said path?

All 43 million people are not willing combatants of this invasion. An invasion where another country attacked a country because the invading country's feelings were hurt. We're Ukrane planting missiles at the border? Was there a massive buildup of troops along the Russian border to provoke this?

JJ's video is a great explainer of this. The "westernification" of Ukraine lead to the 2014 annex of Crimea. And we just stood around with our thumbs up our asses and said "shame on you, don't do it again."

And now, Putin is shelling Kyiv into submission because he wants the land back. Minus the people.
 
aparch said:
So how do you all propose we assist in the efforts to evacuate Ukranians who want out? Just watch them be slaughtered when Russia promises a clear path and then guns down Ukranians using said path?

All 43 million people are not willing combatants of this invasion. An invasion where another country attacked a country because the invading country's feelings were hurt. We're Ukrane planting missiles at the border? Was there a massive buildup of troops along the Russian border to provoke this?

JJ's video is a great explainer of this. The "westernification" of Ukraine lead to the 2014 annex of Crimea. And we just stood around with our thumbs up our asses and said "shame on you, don't do it again."

And now, Putin is shelling Kyiv into submission because he wants the land back. Minus the people.
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Exactly what we're doing. NATO has said, "you can take Ukraine but it will cost you everything." Because the simple calculation is better than total war in Europe.

Make no mistake, what you are proposing IS total war in Europe against a re-motivated army. Soldiers might not hate Ukraine but they absolutely hate the west. Millions would die. And the entire nuclear chain of command would have much less incentive to keep their collective finger off the button.

Obviously they are depleted won't hulk out and turn into a war machine overnight, but no serious person is seriously advocating a war between NATO and Russia. We've established a very clear policy of non-aggression. I don't know if there's anything short of nuclear strikes or WMDs that would bring NATO into this. Right now the only official line is the border of NATO members. That's the no fly zone and that's the line Russia would have to cross.

If the trade is hundreds of thousands vs. millions, it's not easy but it is simple.
 
aparch said:
So how do you all propose we assist in the efforts to evacuate Ukranians who want out? Just watch them be slaughtered when Russia promises a clear path and then guns down Ukranians using said path?

All 43 million people are not willing combatants of this invasion. An invasion where another country attacked a country because the invading country's feelings were hurt. We're Ukrane planting missiles at the border? Was there a massive buildup of troops along the Russian border to provoke this?

JJ's video is a great explainer of this. The "westernification" of Ukraine lead to the 2014 annex of Crimea. And we just stood around with our thumbs up our asses and said "shame on you, don't do it again."

And now, Putin is shelling Kyiv into submission because he wants the land back. Minus the people.
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So now you're suggesting we target their artillery surrounding their cities and hitting the cruise missiles bases being fired from inside the Russian Federation so the Ukrainians can safely escape?
 
Drew S. said:
I read that Trump and some other Republicans were trying to raise money(with Trump taking an 80% cut) so that Russia could keep fighting.
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And how would they get the money into their Soviet masters’ hands? The Ruskies have been removed from SWIFT, and you can’t book travel to the USSR-Lite anymore. Even that alleged 20% can only go into the grifters’ pockets.
 
Right now, the stays quo is we can send food, defensive weapons, and cash. If that changes, then you'll see a shift or we'll hold the line and make Putin act first.

The west will not enter Ukraine and we've only flirted with sending new aircraft. Putin has said new aircraft would make that country party. Ok, we should test that diplomatically and if we think he's not bluffing we'll do what we did before and pull the deal. It sounds like NATO is going to send aircraft so I guess we'll see.

I acknowledge and everyone else acknowledges this a fucking horrible decision to have to make. The leaders will have to live with making the choice. It turns their stomachs (and anyone else watching) and if there was a better option the west would take it.
 
dxmnkd316 said:
Right now, the stays quo is we can send food, defensive weapons, and cash. If that changes, then you'll see a shift or we'll hold the line and make Putin act first.

The west will not enter Ukraine and we've only flirted with sending new aircraft. Putin has said new aircraft would make that country party. Ok, we should test that diplomatically and if we think he's not bluffing we'll do what we did before and pull the deal. It sounds like NATO is going to send aircraft so I guess we'll see.

I acknowledge and everyone else acknowledges this a fucking horrible decision to have to make. The leaders will have to live with making the choice. It turns their stomachs (and anyone else watching) and if there was a better option the west would take it.
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Sound like the Poles are gonna send old Mig29's and the US will back fill the Polish with new F16's.
 
dxmnkd316 said:
Exactly what we're doing. NATO has said, "you can take Ukraine but it will cost you everything." Because the simple calculation is better than total war in Europe.

Make no mistake, what you are proposing IS total war in Europe against a re-motivated army. Soldiers might not hate Ukraine but they absolutely hate the west. Millions would die. And the entire nuclear chain of command would have much less incentive to keep their collective finger off the button.

Obviously they are depleted won't hulk out and turn into a war machine overnight, but no serious person is seriously advocating a war between NATO and Russia. We've established a very clear policy of non-aggression. I don't know if there's anything short of nuclear strikes or WMDs that would bring NATO into this. Right now the only official line is the border of NATO members. That's the no fly zone and that's the line Russia would have to cross.

If the trade is hundreds of thousands vs. millions, it's not easy but it is simple.
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My brain understands all this. My heart tells me this is still wrong.

I am thankful that there have been calm heads on thr NATO and US side of things, but I fear that Ukranians will turn against the entire west for sitting out.
 
bronconick said:
So now you're suggesting we target their artillery surrounding their cities and hitting the cruise missiles bases being fired from inside the Russian Federation so the Ukrainians can safely escape?
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No. I asked what everyone's solution was to allow safe passage instead of watching Ukranians be forced on a 21st century Trail of Tears.
 
aparch said:
My brain understands all this. My heart tells me this is still wrong.

I am thankful that there have been calm heads on thr NATO and US side of things, but I fear that Ukranians will turn against the entire west for sitting out.
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Well yeah, because war is terrible. And there are no good solutions. There are only options that can make things less worse.
 
aparch said:
My brain understands all this. My heart tells me this is still wrong.

I am thankful that there have been calm heads on thr NATO and US side of things, but I fear that Ukranians will turn against the entire west for sitting out.
Click to expand...

Then you’re doing it right. This shouldn’t be something we feel good about. It’s horrible and it should be a heavy burden we all have to live with for the rest of our lives. I see these videos of parents with AKs on their back walking their children to train stations and it breaks my fucking heart. It’s horrific.

And it’s why Russians alive today will never live the way they did before this. The sanctions are punishing. I can’t begin to imagine a life with them (saying nothing of the true hell that exists in Ukraine). They can’t use credit cards. They can’t fly. The two largest ocean carriers and the two largest shipping companies have stopped all shipments in and out. Flights will be grounded completely in under two weeks. They don’t have any new computer chips. No new phones. No repairs for phones. No televisions. No consoles or games. Entertainment companies have entirely pulled out. They don’t have international sports. They don’t have Microsoft. They don’t have stream. They don’t have new cars. They don’t have pornhub. They can’t get their luxury goods. They can’t travel. Their boats aren’t welcome in any ports in the northern hemisphere. Their stock market is nonexistent. The currency is bust. The ATMs are out of money. Inflation is 50%+ if we could even measure it. Their jobs will dry up as exports do.

One guy I follow on Twitter said it best
”this is calculated to cause indescribable misery”
”Russia is going to be in the 19th century a year from now. This is honestly kind of fucked up if it continues for a long time.”
 
Apparently there were pretty big protests in St. Petersburg and Moscow today.

The Russian police and national guard are beating protesters. When there are children present they threaten the parents with separating their families. So, basically, they're our CBP.

This is America the next time the Republicans are in control. I fucking hope the electorate finally understands that. This is what fascism is, and Putin's people have exactly the same mis-wired brains as Dumpies.
 
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