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Grand Unified Election Thread 2: What is the difference between Biden and Dump?

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Handyman said:
Was this a challenge of ALL absentees or just the 2 counties? Neither would have worked if heard but for entirely different reasons.
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Yeah, I think it was just the two counties where the election clerks made that definition last spring regarding "indefinite confinement." But either way, just demanding that all of the absentee votes in those counties be bounced as the remedy when individual votes may have been improperly submitted was never going to work as a remedy.
 
Here's the problem with the Electoral College as it plays out today: Nevada has beaten many other states to counting its final vote.
 
Also, these election decisions were done months ago, and if Donnie had an issue with them, he should have made his claim before the election was held, not after it was all over.
 
SJHovey said:
You'll have to read the opinion, which is fairly long, to get the gist of it. It really isn't as simple as asking "should Biden's win in Wisconsin be overturned?"

Trump argued some points of Wisconsin election law that he said necessitated throwing out absentee ballots. Basically the arguments centered around election clerks completing addresses or other information on ballots that were submitted not in conformance with what the statute says, a claim that ballots collected during various "Democracy in the Parks" rallies shouldn't count, and a claim relating to some declarations last spring by election officials that the Covid stay at home orders constitute "indefinite confinement" which then triggered certain requirements.

An examination of those points reveals a couple of things. First, yeah Wisconsin's election process as handled this year was completely screwed up and haphazard, probably no big surprise. They basically winged it, which of course leads to all sorts of challenges. But the bigger problem, and one that Trump could probably never overcome, is that the remedy he is looking for (just tossing the absentee ballots) was never going to work. It's impossible for him to figure out and prove which ballots were cast contrary to the rules, but his remedy that therefore all absentee ballots be tossed is clearly wrong.

It looks like the primary dispute at the Wisconsin Supreme Court was the way in which the Court chose to decide the case. The majority went with the doctrine of laches, which is sort of an archaic and rarely used notion that if you unnecessarily delay in pursuing your remedy, your claim may be barred. It was the majority's way of punting the decision out of the Court without having to go through the troublesome analysis of what was truly a mess in the Wisconsin election system.

The dissent felt that the analysis should be undertaken, if for no other reason than spanking the election officials and election commission, but I think one of the dissenters even noted that doing so doesn't mean that Trump had any chance of winning on the merits. They just wanted the merits discussed.
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When this suit was filed I read a pretty good analysis on it, and naturally I absolutely cannot find it now.

It said that the state said that those election helpers should not be helping people fill out the forms, but some counties did anyway, and thousands of voters - at the direction of a state and/or county representative - filled out their registrations in good faith under the guidance of a state actor. There are some other laws preceding all of this that says in these cases you must count the votes because individuals should not have their votes invalidated because of bad advice in minutiae like this. So it was a well-thought-through challenge (for a change) but on merits it still should lose.

And it did.
 
Swansong said:
When this suit was filed I read a pretty good analysis on it, and naturally I absolutely cannot find it now.

It said that the state said that those election helpers should not be helping people fill out the forms, but some counties did anyway, and thousands of voters - at the direction of a state and/or county representative - filled out their registrations in good faith under the guidance of a state actor. There are some other laws preceding all of this that says in these cases you must count the votes because individuals should not have their votes invalidated because of bad advice in minutiae like this. So it was a well-thought-through challenge (for a change) but on merits it still should lose.

And it did.
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Yeah, I think the thing that some members of the Court struggled with is this. If the law passed by the legislature says "x," the Secretary of State or some county election official can't just decide that it's "Ok" to do it some other way, pandemic or not. They don't have the authority, and I think the dissenting members of the Court thought it was important that there be sort of a public reprimand of the officials, and clarification of what is and is not acceptable, as part of the decision, even though the remedy Trump sought simply couldn't be granted. It's not fair to the voters, since as you noted, they checked with the "officials" who said it was ok. But there has to be some sort of consequence to the officials, even it it's a public repudiation, otherwise there is nothing to stop them from doing it again.
 
The problem is if they wanted to go after this they had ample opportunity to do it while they were signing people up. It isnt like it was a secret. Just like in Pennsylvania if you really think the issue is problematic when it comes to election integrity you do it right away not weeks after the fact. Judges have said this to them multiple times...especially in Pennsylvania where the GOP run Leg set the rules, 1 of the people suing over it defending it on Twitter. Then he lost and all of a sudden he hated it...

(and the "only Legislatures can make the rules" idea is not set in stone it is just one interpretation of the Constitution)

The truth is they don't think any of this puts the integrity in doubt, they think Trump losing is wrong and this has to be the reason why. They cannot accept that they had complete tunnel vision and missed the signs things were going sideways. (see also: 2016 with Democrats) Everyone knows this, which is why everyone rolls their eyes at it. If they cared as much then as they do they might have been able to fix what they see as problems. They didn't because they believed Trump's rallies proved he was gonna steamroll everywhere so it won't matter anyways. Snooze you lose there is no retroactive rules that can save you. Even if the Wisconsin Supreme Court agreed on principle it isnt in their purview to throw out the ballots in two counties because of technicalities. And of course even if they did Biden still is way beyond the threshold anyways so it is stupid.

And see, if they werent making into a big deal to make money no one would really even care. These lawsuits would be about things GOING FORWARD so they can at least they are doing this to fix issues for the future. They of course aren't saying that...they are convincing the Gullibles that each is a step towards flipping the election so Jesus H. Trump can be President. Now I am all for fleecing the stupid but this is dangerous territory because of how divided we are. And it is unending. I mean when prominent members of the GOP/Parler Crowd are now accusing ACB and Kavanaugh of being traitors (Kavanaugh is also now a rapist according to them and she is crazy) and Communists (which last I checked is still not illegal even though it is laughable on its face) and Trump and his lawyers/inner circle are talking about the next steps because the Court sucks we are straying into some real dark areas with people who are susceptible to manipulation and filled with anger and resentment. They also believe the "Enemy" is a bunch of criminal baby rapers who drink the blood of children to stay young.
 
Did our local R just say there needs to be consequences for actions ???

lol I needed that.
 
Handyman said:
The problem is if they wanted to go after this they had ample opportunity to do it while they were signing people up. It isnt like it was a secret. Just like in Pennsylvania if you really think the issue is problematic when it comes to election integrity you do it right away not weeks after the fact. Judges have said this to them multiple times...especially in Pennsylvania where the GOP run Leg set the rules, 1 of the people suing over it defending it on Twitter. Then he lost and all of a sudden he hated it...

(and the "only Legislatures can make the rules" idea is not set in stone it is just one interpretation of the Constitution)

The truth is they don't think any of this puts the integrity in doubt, they think Trump losing is wrong and this has to be the reason why. They cannot accept that they had complete tunnel vision and missed the signs things were going sideways. (see also: 2016 with Democrats) Everyone knows this, which is why everyone rolls their eyes at it. If they cared as much then as they do they might have been able to fix what they see as problems. They didn't because they believed Trump's rallies proved he was gonna steamroll everywhere so it won't matter anyways. Snooze you lose there is no retroactive rules that can save you. Even if the Wisconsin Supreme Court agreed on principle it isnt in their purview to throw out the ballots in two counties because of technicalities. And of course even if they did Biden still is way beyond the threshold anyways so it is stupid.

And see, if they werent making into a big deal to make money no one would really even care. These lawsuits would be about things GOING FORWARD so they can at least they are doing this to fix issues for the future. They of course aren't saying that...they are convincing the Gullibles that each is a step towards flipping the election so Jesus H. Trump can be President. Now I am all for fleecing the stupid but this is dangerous territory because of how divided we are. And it is unending. I mean when prominent members of the GOP/Parler Crowd are now accusing ACB and Kavanaugh of being traitors (Kavanaugh is also now a rapist according to them and she is crazy) and Communists (which last I checked is still not illegal even though it is laughable on its face) and Trump and his lawyers/inner circle are talking about the next steps because the Court sucks we are straying into some real dark areas with people who are susceptible to manipulation and filled with anger and resentment. They also believe the "Enemy" is a bunch of criminal baby rapers who drink the blood of children to stay young.
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Well, when the legislature does choose to act and set out what the rules are, those are the rules until either the legislature changes them, or a court strikes them down. Some deputy clerk in Dane County who thinks it would be handy if the ballots could just be picked up by meals on wheels drivers doesn't get to change them.
 
SJHovey said:
Well, when the legislature does choose to act and set out what the rules are, those are the rules until either the legislature changes them, or a court strikes them down. Some deputy clerk in Dane County who thinks it would be handy if the ballots could just be picked up by meals on wheels drivers doesn't get to change them.
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That is only true if Wisconsin says it is true. If they (hypothetically) put into place that other people have the right to make such decisions then that is the law...not some archaic Originalist interpretation of the Constitution. Wisconsin has the right to set up their elections their way as long as they are free and fair.

(I am not saying that is the case here just saying your comment is a bit too narrow)
 
Handyman said:
https://twitter.com/ryanstruyk/status/1338593812445327365
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Watched a replay of that, he pointed out that other states had the exact same "issues" that Texas had, but they were not included in the lawsuit. Only the ones that dumpy lost. He clearly thinks this was a total political power grab.

And it should be pointed out that dumpy has never really wanted to BE the President, he just wants to be called the president. I do hope that he's treated with the contempt he's deserved, and is rarely called what other former Presidents are called.
 
Biden calling out the ridiculous lawsuits and the gop members who backed this nonsense.

seeethe republicans. I sense a rage tweet storm coming
 
Handyman said:
Oh they have been turning on the Blue the last 2 weeks or so. Parler is filled with hatred of the cops because they dont back Trump overthrowing the vote.
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GOP-picked federal judges, GOP Govs and Secretaries of State, state cops, let's face it - to Dumpies we are now ALL part of the Deep State conspiracy to steal the election from their cult leader. ;-)
 
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