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Youth Sports - How much is too much

Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

Before my kids’ hockey games, I’d tell ‘em “play hard –have fun”. They’re adults now. They all played in college, at different levels. They still play hockey in adult leagues. They drive themselves to games and tournaments. They still play hard. They still have fun. Isn’t that our real goal?
Well said! If you helped to push them to a high level and have fun you get it. The most successful people I know are driven, competitive but they really have fun and "Play The Game of Life". It is a very complicated balance but a great lifetime skill you can learn in the game of hockey and play over your lifetime.
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

Well said! If you helped to push them to a high level and have fun you get it. The most successful people I know are driven, competitive but they really have fun and "Play The Game of Life". It is a very complicated balance but a great lifetime skill you can learn in the game of hockey and play over your lifetime.

I've seen this in a number of sports and pursuits over the years, and I guess it is part of a natural instinct for adults to want their kids/relations to succeed. Unfortunately, the succeed part seems to be lost and it becomes excel...as in "my kid is the best." Too often the passion of the 8, 11, 14 year old is lost due to the overbearing "passion" of the parents.

Hell, we see it now in those infomercial ads touting toddlers reading. They can manage a Dick and Jane book, but still poop in their Huggies. Kinda putting the cart before the horse.

Prodding works, pushing...not so much.
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much


Great points and a well-written article!

I wonder too if all the rigorous training that some go through at such a young age might be having a detrimental impact on the number of kids playing the game. Others who don't give hockey a try until a little later on (like ages 8-10) may find themselves already so far behind that they become discouraged and quickly move on to something else. That and the fact that many youth coaches run practices like an Army boot camp and take so much enjoyment out of playing what should be the "funnest" game around!
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

A "An attorney taking an extra job to pay for it all".

couldn't happen to a less nice person

"I started skating around the time I started walking"

so did I

I wonder though, in Canada the majority does, and what % of them go on to get a college scholarship or play pro?
 
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Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

So I agree with the other posters... not good. But here are some further thoughts:

1. All of this training will probably work (unfortunately). She'll likely be a good hockey player and coaches will fall over themselves recruiting her at all levels.
2. Reminds me of East German athletes in the 70's and 80's. I don't think that turned out well.
3. These parents are putting a lot of eggs in one basket. She'll always be an injury away from not having anything to fall back on for her future.
4. The long-term risk here is that this girl will not have experiences and skills (outside of hockey) to deal with life after the sport.
5. I wonder how many other parents are doing this with their daughters (and sons).
6. If these kids get results, there will be a rush of parents sending kids to these training facilities at a too-young-age.

1 It might work the 10K hours rule does not always apply, there is a genetic factor, among many others.
2 Germans then like other countries relied heavily on HGH or Steroids
3 All those eggs for what a scholly? Maybe Olympic glory? Doesn't make sense, invest it now and you won't need a scholly.
4 She will be missing other motor, emotion, strategy etc skills from other sports or parts of life.
5 Depends on what you believe is too much.
6 Chances are people will never learn of the results fully. I like to say there is ALWAYS more to the story.
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

Amazing article kudos to Star Tribune.

A few thoughts, I was probably as crazy as hockey dads come and we were lucky to be able to have our kids do a lot of unique things amazed and a little jealous at the options now available to train kids who love the game. We approach hockey a Team sport as a jump start way to learn how to win at the game of life.

1) To be truly world class at anything it takes 10,000 hours of deliberate practice - do the math on how long that takes. I don't know if this young lady is a virtuoso but look at the kids who sing or play they are doing all of this - right or wrong.

2) Dean Talafous who played at Wisconsin and +500 games in the NHL founded a training business Total Hockey 10 years ago - he developed a number of players who went on to play D1 and some playing in the NHL. He said he had the business plan for Total Hockey and a second one where he would pick kids up on a Yellow School Bus give them a sack lunch with a peanut butter sandwich and take them to an outdoor rink to just skate and have fun - he said a player really doesn't get "great & creative" until that 4th hour of messing around and having fun. The Winter Classic always has great stories of kids growing up on ponds, lakes and backyard rinks. Gretzky's Dad pushed Wayne and he spent countless hours on their outdoor rink. Natalie Darwitz has said she would spend all the time she could at the rink with her older brother. I am amazed in our community where we have 6-7 flooded hockey rinks maintained by the parks dept from mid December to mid February the actual small number of kids just out using the rinks having fun or creating their next great move or making the shot with time running out in game 7 - and we live in a community with one of the largest Hockey Clubs in MN Hockey. Diane Ness is something any hockey player at any age can really show improvement from - if you can skate well good things can happen if you can't they won't.

3) I have learned at D1 I probably would have had my daughter take 2 months off from hockey and work harder on strength training and speed work. Our family YMCA and our park with little orange cones is where our daughter has summer trained while at PC - huge changes in her game as she became stronger and quicker.

4) We have a favorite little 7 year old who attends Friar games and two years ago her father asked how do I help my daughter one day play at Providence. My answer "was make sure at the end of every season she has had fun". Kids will push themselves harder than any coach or parent if they are having fun "playing". He didn't accept my answer and asked my daughter the same question and got basically the same "have fun" answer. I saw him recently and he said his daughter has become a real rink rat (skating when ever and where ever they can) and a has a place where she shoots and stick handles. The term is "messes around" as she says. Getting good coaching probably helped Tiger Woods but the countless drills and play developed his game.

5) The last comment is what if we helped any hockey player become great in STEM classes - developing great minds and a passion for science may not be as fun as hockey but long term pretty rewarding to the kids who really practice and learn and in reality Mad Science can be fun.

1 That 10K hour rule does not always work and it's really an average with a fairly wide range. Read the Sport Gene and Bounce or Outliers, all give insight.
2 I think you have to look at the Euro model of things were kids do more skating and skill work than game play. But still no ONE answer to get to the top. Pond hockey, less structure more fun, no pressure, learning from kids older often THAT is fun.
3 Important that strength training not done too early and lots of mis-information on what strength training really needs to be done.
4 Think we have to define good coaching, I see a LOT of bad coaching.
5 Typically MUCH more rewarding especially on the women's side as really no pro career to go on with.
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

"I started skating around the time I started walking"

I wonder though, in Canada the majority does, and what % of them go on to get a college scholarship or play pro?

Vast majority of young children in Canada DO NOT PLAY hockey. Those days are long gone.

Percentages are low no matter the sport or region. No Different than the small percentage of Hockey Players from Minnesota or Football players from Texas making it to the pro's.
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

Taken from the Ontario Board from a thread that has otherwise nothing to do with this subject, so copied the whole post here. Read the last sentence.

November 11 2013, 10:48 AM post in this Tread: http://www.network54.com/Forum/679250/thread/1383670015/last-1384184929/U18+Nationals


"Karl Subban knows the cost of being a hockey parent in Canada.

The patriarch of one of Canada’s most successful hockey families – his boys P.K., Malcolm and Jordan have all been drafted by NHL teams – he and his wife paid $5,000 each in one year just to register them in minor hockey in the Greater Toronto Hockey League (GTHL).

“And that’s not including equipment and what not,” Mr. Subban says. “It was very expensive. But you make sacrifices. That’s what we did.”

It’s widely known that Canada’s national winter sport is expensive to play. But various factors have conspired over the last 10 to 15 years to make minor hockey dramatically more expensive, pricing out many middle-class families. These days, more and more of the players that go on to play major junior, college and, ultimately, pro hockey are from wealthy backgrounds.

It’s a development that threatens the sport’s blue-collar roots, including the idea that the next Gordie Howe or Wayne Gretzky will come from backgrounds as modest as theirs were. Players of modest means in this generation must beat out peers who are often better trained and have spent many more hours on the ice, thanks to wealthy parents.

“The game has changed in this respect: It used to be that you had a right to play,” long-time GTHL president John Gardner says. “Now it’s can you afford to pay.”

While there are still many examples of players of limited means who beat the odds and make the NHL, a sport that was once a true meritocracy is increasingly one where money talks, and a case study of how income inequality affects Canadians.

According to a confidential survey commissioned by Hockey Canada last year and obtained by The Globe and Mail, the 1,300 parents surveyed had an average household income roughly 15 per cent higher than the national median. The majority listed their occupation as a “professional, owner, executive or manager,” a reflection of hockey’s new white-collar base.

“If you’re doing eight, nine, 10 years of Triple A hockey from novice up, you’re talking eight to 10 grand, minimum,” says Jim Parcels, a long-time minor hockey coach and administrator who is the co-author of Selling the Dream: How Hockey Parents and Their Kids Are Paying the Price for Our National Obsession. “You do that for 10 years, that’s almost $100,000. That’s because it’s six, sometimes seven days a week commitments.”

Mr. Parcels recalls coaching teams of 14- and 15-year-olds through NHL-calibre seasons, where they would travel around the province and play 80-plus games between September and March. Every additional game added to the already considerable cost, but parents often wanted more chances for their kids to compete, not fewer.

“I was absolutely embarrassed I was part of a staff that did that,” Mr. Parcels says. “And we weren’t the only ones. Everybody did it.”

The highest levels of minor hockey aren’t the only ones that have become prohibitively expensive, however. According to the survey by Hockey Canada, the average hockey parent spent just shy of $3,000 on minor hockey in the 2011-12 season alone.

Those costs included $1,200 for registration and ice time, $900 for travel and accommodations and more than $600 for skates and other equipment. The expenses were also considerably higher as players got older, with parents paying roughly double – or about $3,700 a season – for children between the age of 11 and 17.

Among the parents surveyed by Hockey Canada whose children had recently stopped playing hockey, 46 per cent said lower costs would make them “much more likely” or “somewhat more likely” to resume playing. (Add the increased costs to changing demographics and concerns about concussions, and enrolment in hockey across the country has been down or flat, with only one in 10 Canadians between the age of 5 and 19 now playing, according to Hockey Canada.)

One of the biggest reasons for hockey’s spiralling costs is the rise in the price of ice time. Municipal facilities have become overburdened in many parts of the country. Private arenas have begun offering more and more of the available ice time, often at a much higher cost. What used to cost a minor hockey team $50 an hour can now be upwards of seven times that.

Another factor is the enormous rise in the importance of rep or “travel” hockey teams: elite teams that draw on the best minor hockey players at each level to compete against teams from other towns or neighbourhoods. The travel costs and additional fees can add up quickly, but it’s often kids on these elite teams that get noticed by scouts and drafted into the Canadian Hockey League, the NHL’s primary feeder system in this country.

Then there is the emergence of so-called hockey academies – private boarding schools where parents pay $40,000 a season for their teens to incorporate hockey into their high-school education, all in a bid to improve their skills so they can compete in elite leagues and catch the eye of scouts. Add to that what some parents are now paying for skills-development programs and off-season training, and the cost can become mind-boggling.

“It’s getting totally out of control,” says Derek Popke, who deals with overzealous parents dreaming of their children making the NHL as the president of Vancouver Hockey School. “It’s a crazy world. It’s professionalized. And I think this really has to come to people’s attention that it has to be dialled back. Everything.”

Beyond the financial picture, playing minor hockey at the elite level has other bizarre implications, many of which only involve the super-rich. There are stories of parents moving into different neighbourhoods – or even legally separating from their partner in order to have two addresses – in order to allow their children to play on higher-profile teams.

“It’s an ego thing for parents,” says Mr. Parcels. “Their kids couldn’t care less, but it becomes a status symbol.”

Some of the solutions to the problems plaguing high-level minor hockey are novel. Mr. Parcels points to Thunder Bay, Ont., where the city’s remote location makes travel hockey difficult. Hockey officials there devised a system where top players compete against older teams in the area in order to get an appropriate challenge.

With no need to travel for games and tournaments, the costs are more manageable. Thunder Bay has produced an impressive number of pro players despite its modest population.

Other ideas are more obvious, such as Mr. Gardner’s call for governments at all levels to better subsidize arenas and ice time as a way to promote kids being active.

“If you don’t invest in youth, if you don’t plant the seeds, the tree isn’t going to grow,” says the GTHL president. “I mean, this is insane. How in the heck can you get kids involved in hockey with those kinds of costs? Especially people that are new to the country. When they find out how much it’s going to cost, they get very nervous.”

The Subban family has taken its own approach to the issue. Partnering with a corporate sponsor, they helped create the Hyundai Hockey Helpers program, which provides grants of up to $1,000 to children who can’t afford to play hockey.

P.K. Subban, the charismatic, 24-year-old star with the Montreal Canadiens, has become the face of the campaign, appearing in television commercials that have played during Hockey Night in Canada.

“It’s a great game,” he says in one of the ads, “but it’s an expensive game, too.”

The program’s first year helped 1,880 children get onto the ice last season, something that was important to Karl Subban, who immigrated to Sudbury from Jamaica when he was 11 and couldn’t afford to play organized hockey.

He and his wife, Maria, were ultimately able to give their children that opportunity thanks to two successful careers, but he knows from experience that many will not get that chance without some help.

“Many of us afforded it with difficulty,” says Mr. Subban, who recently retired after 30 years as a principal and teacher, at times in some of Toronto’s poorest neighbourhoods. “Many people are making sacrifices, and I don’t remember many parents not complaining about the cost.

We have so many children who want to play but just can’t afford it. The rising cost is just putting too many children on the sidelines.
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

Vast majority of young children in Canada DO NOT PLAY hockey. Those days are long gone.


You are correct, most Canadians don't play hockey any more... and from what I can see, there are very few Canadians in Canada too. ;)
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

and from what I can see, there are very few Canadians in Canada too. ;)

What are you suggesting ?. Pretty sure most people living in Canada are proud to call themselves Canadian.
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

The article was very thought-provoking, and I agree with many (although not all) of the comments from the other posters.

I agree completely with the issue of costs, on both sides of the borders. If not for help from family and friends, our daughter would not have had as many opportunities to participate in many of the more advanced offerings. The economic downturn was very hard on us, and we have still not recovered completely. It's easy to say "then don't do it," but that's not fair to our daughter. She was gifted with athletic talent (as, obviously, are the other girls on college teams) more than any other type of talent - like art, music, or even academics. Do you not honor that talent, and do as much as you can to help her make the most of her gifts? Nothing is guaranteed in hockey, of course, but working hard for many years certainly is the minimum standard that she and her teammates share in common.

If you can't participate in elite leagues, national camps, etc., there is frankly, virtually no chance of getting to play college hockey. The exceptional talent level of today's players is due in large part to the demanding training and playing schedules these girls have participated in. I remember watching women's college hockey a decade ago...the average player on today's college team is (in many ways) as good as some of the best players back in the day (not all, clearly). It's so much more fun to watch, isn't it? And, for the girls, I expect it's much more fun to play when your body is performing at such a high level - and you are playing with girls doing the same thing.

Many of these girls came from high school, and even boarding school teams, where they were the top player(s). The average high school female hockey player has improved, but still finds it difficult to consistently get a pass out of the zone, or pick the puck up along the boards consistently. Getting to play with teammates of equally high skill is one of the main things my daughter enjoys about college hockey, frankly.

Another point I'll take some issue with is the notion that academic scholarships are just tumbling out of the woodwork for students. My daughter is very smart, but has a learning issue that made formal learning very difficult in grade school. There were times when hockey was perhaps the only thing keeping her as focused as possible, and moving forward. Again, it's soooo easy to say "get an academic scholarship instead of an athletic one," but that's not at all realistic for *every* student. We took her to plenty of college women's games, and getting to know some of the older players was a huge gift. She had role models to help guide her decisions, and to keep her focused on her goal. Not only are academic scholarships hard to get overall, students with average GPA's will find few opportunities to attend the school of their choice this way. Even with scholarships, student loans are the norm.

She does have a hockey scholarship, and assuming all goes well, will graduate with virtually no debt - which is an enormous blessing in this day and age. Kids graduating with $20, 30, 40, 50,000 (or more) in college debt are starting their working life with chains around their feet. So many of their decisions will be driven by this debt and it will take many of them decades to pay it back. It will retard home buying, marriage, and having children. It will be an enormous drain on society. Did she work hard for a hockey scholarship? Yes, she did (and is still working very hard). Was it a goal worth pursuing? Absolutely. Am I thrilled for her? You bet. People who sneer at the idea of wanting an athletic scholarship to help pay for college clearly don't know the angst of trying to figure out how to help your child pay for it.

To my knowledge we (as parents) never once had to "force" her to do anything related to hockey. It was quite the opposite (like the young lady in the article). We had to help her balance the other demands in her life with practices, off-season hockey, other sports, and school. I know there were times we let hockey take priority over everything else, including school. For our daughter, at that time in her life, I think it was the right thing to do. Again, the goal with any child is to help them move forward and engage with life...and sometimes they need the carrot much more than any stick. Instead of forbidding her to go to practice with a "D" on a test, we encouraged her to continue playing and trying hard. This is an important life lesson to learn - and the academic path isn't the only way to get there.

We used to talk about "what school do you want to play hockey for?", too. It was fun. Of course, we never promised her such a thing would come to pass, nor did any of us ever *assume* it would happen. It would come up in conversation sometimes, and we'd use it as a fun motivational comment - "well, if you want to play for [insert college name here] some day, you're going to have to be a good student." Or maybe "I don't think I ever want to wear a [insert color of choice here] jersey. It would run in the laundry!" Said in a light hearted tone, it became part of our family "thing" if you will. I think some of what you're reading in print is easy to take out of context.

Does the family in this article seem rather extreme? A bit. Is there a problem with hockey being out of reach financially for many families? Definitely. College or not, it's a wonderful sport that *more* kids should have access to. It would be a huge help if more associations had scholarships, including for gear and equipment - and perhaps engaged some of the wealthier members of the community in helping make it happen. And as for "pond hockey", someone please explain why associations and rinks don't just open up arena ice for pick up games throughout the week? The ice is made - it's just sitting there. If you had age groupings throughout the day/evening, many more kids could jump in and just play for the fun of it. This would also help the kids and young people who get started with the game later on. A 15-year old isn't at all likely to play college hockey (although it has happened in a couple of cases), but they can start enjoying a life long sport.
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

The article was very thought-provoking, and I agree with many (although not all) of the comments from the other posters.

I agree completely with the issue of costs, on both sides of the borders. If not for help from family and friends, our daughter would not have had as many opportunities to participate in many of the more advanced offerings. The economic downturn was very hard on us, and we have still not recovered completely. It's easy to say "then don't do it," but that's not fair to our daughter. She was gifted with athletic talent (as, obviously, are the other girls on college teams) more than any other type of talent - like art, music, or even academics. Do you not honor that talent, and do as much as you can to help her make the most of her gifts? Nothing is guaranteed in hockey, of course, but working hard for many years certainly is the minimum standard that she and her teammates share in common.

If you can't participate in elite leagues, national camps, etc., there is frankly, virtually no chance of getting to play college hockey. The exceptional talent level of today's players is due in large part to the demanding training and playing schedules these girls have participated in. I remember watching women's college hockey a decade ago...the average player on today's college team is (in many ways) as good as some of the best players back in the day (not all, clearly). It's so much more fun to watch, isn't it? And, for the girls, I expect it's much more fun to play when your body is performing at such a high level - and you are playing with girls doing the same thing.

Many of these girls came from high school, and even boarding school teams, where they were the top player(s). The average high school female hockey player has improved, but still finds it difficult to consistently get a pass out of the zone, or pick the puck up along the boards consistently. Getting to play with teammates of equally high skill is one of the main things my daughter enjoys about college hockey, frankly.

Another point I'll take some issue with is the notion that academic scholarships are just tumbling out of the woodwork for students. My daughter is very smart, but has a learning issue that made formal learning very difficult in grade school. There were times when hockey was perhaps the only thing keeping her as focused as possible, and moving forward. Again, it's soooo easy to say "get an academic scholarship instead of an athletic one," but that's not at all realistic for *every* student. We took her to plenty of college women's games, and getting to know some of the older players was a huge gift. She had role models to help guide her decisions, and to keep her focused on her goal. Not only are academic scholarships hard to get overall, students with average GPA's will find few opportunities to attend the school of their choice this way. Even with scholarships, student loans are the norm.

She does have a hockey scholarship, and assuming all goes well, will graduate with virtually no debt - which is an enormous blessing in this day and age. Kids graduating with $20, 30, 40, 50,000 (or more) in college debt are starting their working life with chains around their feet. So many of their decisions will be driven by this debt and it will take many of them decades to pay it back. It will retard home buying, marriage, and having children. It will be an enormous drain on society. Did she work hard for a hockey scholarship? Yes, she did (and is still working very hard). Was it a goal worth pursuing? Absolutely. Am I thrilled for her? You bet. People who sneer at the idea of wanting an athletic scholarship to help pay for college clearly don't know the angst of trying to figure out how to help your child pay for it.

To my knowledge we (as parents) never once had to "force" her to do anything related to hockey. It was quite the opposite (like the young lady in the article). We had to help her balance the other demands in her life with practices, off-season hockey, other sports, and school. I know there were times we let hockey take priority over everything else, including school. For our daughter, at that time in her life, I think it was the right thing to do. Again, the goal with any child is to help them move forward and engage with life...and sometimes they need the carrot much more than any stick. Instead of forbidding her to go to practice with a "D" on a test, we encouraged her to continue playing and trying hard. This is an important life lesson to learn - and the academic path isn't the only way to get there.

We used to talk about "what school do you want to play hockey for?", too. It was fun. Of course, we never promised her such a thing would come to pass, nor did any of us ever *assume* it would happen. It would come up in conversation sometimes, and we'd use it as a fun motivational comment - "well, if you want to play for [insert college name here] some day, you're going to have to be a good student." Or maybe "I don't think I ever want to wear a [insert color of choice here] jersey. It would run in the laundry!" Said in a light hearted tone, it became part of our family "thing" if you will. I think some of what you're reading in print is easy to take out of context.

Does the family in this article seem rather extreme? A bit. Is there a problem with hockey being out of reach financially for many families? Definitely. College or not, it's a wonderful sport that *more* kids should have access to. It would be a huge help if more associations had scholarships, including for gear and equipment - and perhaps engaged some of the wealthier members of the community in helping make it happen. And as for "pond hockey", someone please explain why associations and rinks don't just open up arena ice for pick up games throughout the week? The ice is made - it's just sitting there. If you had age groupings throughout the day/evening, many more kids could jump in and just play for the fun of it. This would also help the kids and young people who get started with the game later on. A 15-year old isn't at all likely to play college hockey (although it has happened in a couple of cases), but they can start enjoying a life long sport.
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

Vast majority of young children in Canada DO NOT PLAY hockey. Those days are long gone.

Percentages are low no matter the sport or region. No Different than the small percentage of Hockey Players from Minnesota or Football players from Texas making it to the pro's.

I said skate

still, my point is starting to skate early is no guarantee that you'll turn into a star or even play hockey
 
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