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Youth Sports - How much is too much

C

CrazyDave

That alumni band guy
Starting a new thread because, well, this really didn't fit anywhere else (unless someone wanted to start a 2024-25 recruiting thread).

The Star Tribune in Minneapolis posted a lengthy article -- 7-year-old Sara Woll: A life (already) committed to hockey. The preview tag reads:
As in many households throughout Minnesota, the debate over how-much-is-too-much with youth sports goes on almost daily in the Woll home, a modest, two-story in south Minneapolis with an aging Ford Taurus parked out front.
Click to expand...

I haven't taken the time to formulate my own opinion on this yet. I just wanted to put it out as a discussion (civilized, preferably) starter.
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

Ugghh. Skating lessons are one thing. But at this age anything more is overkill, and the kid, no matter how much she loves the game, is likely to burn out.
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

One can claim that you're doing it for daughter, but when you want to start your 7 year old lifting weights and thinking about where to attend college, it's time to back away. Let kids be kids.
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

Wow! To each their own I guess. Hopefully they will be able to look back with no regrets and whatever expectations the parents have for her are not too high.
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

So I agree with the other posters... not good. But here are some further thoughts:

1. All of this training will probably work (unfortunately). She'll likely be a good hockey player and coaches will fall over themselves recruiting her at all levels.
2. Reminds me of East German athletes in the 70's and 80's. I don't think that turned out well.
3. These parents are putting a lot of eggs in one basket. She'll always be an injury away from not having anything to fall back on for her future.
4. The long-term risk here is that this girl will not have experiences and skills (outside of hockey) to deal with life after the sport.
5. I wonder how many other parents are doing this with their daughters (and sons).
6. If these kids get results, there will be a rush of parents sending kids to these training facilities at a too-young-age.
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

PuckRush said:
So I agree with the other posters... not good. But here are some further thoughts:

1. All of this training will probably work (unfortunately). She'll likely be a good hockey player and coaches will fall over themselves recruiting her at all levels.
2. Reminds me of East German athletes in the 70's and 80's. I don't think that turned out well.
3. These parents are putting a lot of eggs in one basket. She'll always be an injury away from not having anything to fall back on for her future.
4. The long-term risk here is that this girl will not have experiences and skills (outside of hockey) to deal with life after the sport.
5. I wonder how many other parents are doing this with their daughters (and sons).
6. If these kids get results, there will be a rush of parents sending kids to these training facilities at a too-young-age.
Click to expand...

It's done now with gymnastics and tennis at ridiculously young ages. Is it just a matter of time? (That being said, I wholeheartedly do NOT agree with the concept)
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

I agree with all of the above but I'll add that it's not just the kid. Even aside from those concerns, the parents seem far too invested in this. What are they going to do when their daughter's hockey comes to an end? There's a difference between supporting your children and making their lives your own. In most cases it isn't going to end up healthy for any of those involved. Join a bowling league, for god's sake, and spend time with your own friends.
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

ARM said:
One can claim that you're doing it for daughter, but when you want to start your 7 year old lifting weights and thinking about where to attend college, it's time to back away. Let kids be kids.
Click to expand...


Agreed. At that age it should be all about play and fun, not muscle specific training. Until at least age 10 but more like age 12, kids should play various sports, take time away from one sport to play another. No issue with doing weekly skates parts of the off season, but most of the off season should be about other sports. Soccer kids play hockey/Basketball in winter and Hockey kids play Ball/Soccer/Lacrosse in summer.

As long as they are active, they will develop in all around athletes, and that will serve them better in the long run. If they do have the talent and the drive, once they get into the 13-14 year age group start focusing on the sport of choice, but even then there should be some "Off periods".

When our kids where younger all they wanted to do was play games, so we let them.
 
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Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

Eeyore said:
I agree with all of the above but I'll add that it's not just the kid. Even aside from those concerns, the parents seem far too invested in this. What are they going to do when their daughter's hockey comes to an end? There's a difference between supporting your children and making their lives your own. In most cases it isn't going to end up healthy for any of those involved. Join a bowling league, for god's sake, and spend time with your own friends.
Click to expand...

Agree. "An attorney taking an extra job to pay for it all". Wow.
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

Hmmm, in Minnesota? Whatever happened to hours and hours and hours of good old pond hockey every week? :confused:
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

Sadly this is the way things are moving in youth hockey in Minnesota and Canada: Huge topic of discussion and problem... Its good to see common sense on a hockey board so I'll throw my 2cents into the hat. I really doubt that there is a magic amount of hockey that is too little or too much for sure - each kid probably has a different hockey threshold. Face it, even if you have four kids in hockey I would suspect that there are six hockey dreams in the ol' ford - parents guide their children. Can a parent actually get the amount of hockey right and still give their kid a fighting chance towards fulfilling 'the dream'? Its awfully hard - especially when your trying to keep up with the 'Woll's' out there. Many a time have I had to weigh the hockey pros and cons. Face it, there are a lot of people making a lot of money from the sport of hockey so stay on your toes and learn to say no thanks. Hockey is an expensive sport and can be stupid expensive if you let it be. I do suspect that there are a few key ingredients - skating and puck skills - in helping make good hockey players while not crossing the 'too much' line. It's hard to argue that starting hockey on a backyard rink (or pond) at an early age provides a good base for success in the sport. From there on out, drawing from experience, I recommend nothing more than doing what is necessary to keep it (hockey) fun along the way (with an emphasis on being a great teammate). Recognizing when your kid isn't enjoying the whole hockey thing and being creative in dealing with it is tricky. Variety in activity helps this 'growing' problem immensely - lots of other sports and activities translate well with hockey, and can help your child become a better player. Bobby Orr played a lot of sports besides hockey. Not necessarily at an elite level but my kids have played or still play baseball, basketball, golf, and hockey. A game of catch can go a long way. Further, confidence and enjoyment are usually two key factors in having success in most things so I try to lean towards finding a team for my kids with a coach that #1 believes in my kid and motivates through positive reinforcement - I'd take the right coach on the B team vs. the wrong coach on the A team any day (the end justifies the means). So many goods can come out of hockey...friends, close families, adventure, values. Hopefully at the end of the day my kids are playing hockey for the love of the game. I just hope I can still build an outdoor rink in 2024 - for my grandchildren - its getting harder to build one every year. For some reason hockey parents instinctively want to choose to keep up with the pack of 'wolls' for fear of being left behind. Fortunately my wife is a lady of tremendous faith... when my hockey parent frustrations set in she reminds me that 'What is meant to be will be - no need to force things'. Looking forward to this thread and picking up some ideas that will 'assist' in making my hockey parent journey a good one.
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

I'll bet Jack Blatherwick will weigh in on this in the next Let's Play Hockey.
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

There is a simple answer for this kind of foolishness....Parents are idiots...[opps, there I said it...I am a bad person] :D
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

Amazing article kudos to Star Tribune.

A few thoughts, I was probably as crazy as hockey dads come and we were lucky to be able to have our kids do a lot of unique things amazed and a little jealous at the options now available to train kids who love the game. We approach hockey a Team sport as a jump start way to learn how to win at the game of life.

1) To be truly world class at anything it takes 10,000 hours of deliberate practice - do the math on how long that takes. I don't know if this young lady is a virtuoso but look at the kids who sing or play they are doing all of this - right or wrong.

2) Dean Talafous who played at Wisconsin and +500 games in the NHL founded a training business Total Hockey 10 years ago - he developed a number of players who went on to play D1 and some playing in the NHL. He said he had the business plan for Total Hockey and a second one where he would pick kids up on a Yellow School Bus give them a sack lunch with a peanut butter sandwich and take them to an outdoor rink to just skate and have fun - he said a player really doesn't get "great & creative" until that 4th hour of messing around and having fun. The Winter Classic always has great stories of kids growing up on ponds, lakes and backyard rinks. Gretzky's Dad pushed Wayne and he spent countless hours on their outdoor rink. Natalie Darwitz has said she would spend all the time she could at the rink with her older brother. I am amazed in our community where we have 6-7 flooded hockey rinks maintained by the parks dept from mid December to mid February the actual small number of kids just out using the rinks having fun or creating their next great move or making the shot with time running out in game 7 - and we live in a community with one of the largest Hockey Clubs in MN Hockey. Diane Ness is something any hockey player at any age can really show improvement from - if you can skate well good things can happen if you can't they won't.

3) I have learned at D1 I probably would have had my daughter take 2 months off from hockey and work harder on strength training and speed work. Our family YMCA and our park with little orange cones is where our daughter has summer trained while at PC - huge changes in her game as she became stronger and quicker.

4) We have a favorite little 7 year old who attends Friar games and two years ago her father asked how do I help my daughter one day play at Providence. My answer "was make sure at the end of every season she has had fun". Kids will push themselves harder than any coach or parent if they are having fun "playing". He didn't accept my answer and asked my daughter the same question and got basically the same "have fun" answer. I saw him recently and he said his daughter has become a real rink rat (skating when ever and where ever they can) and a has a place where she shoots and stick handles. The term is "messes around" as she says. Getting good coaching probably helped Tiger Woods but the countless drills and play developed his game.

5) The last comment is what if we helped any hockey player become great in STEM classes - developing great minds and a passion for science may not be as fun as hockey but long term pretty rewarding to the kids who really practice and learn and in reality Mad Science can be fun.
 
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Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

How much is too much depends on the child, and on the expectations (or lack thereof) placed on the child by her parents. And of course, the physical aspects of workouts--particularly strength training--should be carefully tailored to the child's age.

My worry, with articles like the Strib article, is that some dumb parents will see that little Sarah is doing this much training, and they'll push their girl to train this hard because that's what it takes. I'm guessing little Sarah has passion for the game...

IMO, the number one predictor of success in hockey is passion for the game. I read a great article last summer that describes harmonious passion and obsessive passion. Success can be achieved with either, but as you might guess, harmonious passion is a lot healthier way to go, and burnout is essentially non-existent. Not so with obsessive passion.

The key ingredients of harmonious passion: autonomy (child gets to decide what she loves to do, and how passionate she is about that activity) and encouragement (parents provide every opportunity to allow child to pursue and devleop in her chosen activity, and provide positive feedback on her successes).

Obsessive passion, on the other hand, is more pushy parents. 'You need to train like this to get ahead of the pack.'

Some links:
http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r26710/LRCS/resultats_en.htm
http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/r26710/LRCS/papers/mageau2009.pdf

And a good article on burnout prevention:
http://www.nfhs.org/CoachingTodayContent.aspx?id=6831
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

I read this and as a current player and a current coach, it just seems a bit much to me. It also seems potentially counter productive to specialize so early in a sport in which the peak years of performance are in college (except for National team, CWHL ect. when the peak years obviously continue and more mirror the expectations for the development of professional male players.) There is nothing wrong with a kid who loves hockey and loves improving getting a ton of ice time and taking lessons, but I personally think that a well rounded athletic base aids the long term development of players. Skating is obviously a skill that needs to be learned earlier but not at the exclusion of other sports. I also see a lack of creativity in the women's game that I think stems from girls not having a lot of experience in non-structured shinny, pick-up games ect. I'm not saying this will be the case for this girl going forward but there are some things that you can't learn from a hockey school. I think the lack of creativity is now coming more into the boys game as well and it probably stems from a lack of informal ice time.

On a side note, I'm not sure what pay out the parents expect. In this case seems as though the girl loves hockey and that's fine, but I've coached a lot of kids (girls and boys) where the parents seem to be expecting something. An NHL career is a nice way to recoup all the money spent on youth hockey, but it's not something anyone can bank on. Way too many variables. Way too few spots. And for women there is no way to get rich playing hockey and there probably won't be any time soon. A scholarship is nice, but there are other ways to get one. If a girl happens to earn a college scholarship through playing hockey that's great, but parents seem to view it as something due them for their investment.
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

Good thread, and some thoughtful responses. Look at the ‘start dates’ on many of the commentors—these folk have been here a while, and usually speak with some pretty good insight.
And they responded quickly to this topic. Thanks for raising it.

So this is the state some parents have gotten to (and this kid isn’t doing it on her own) …but you gotta be pretty naive if you’ve read on this board for years the occasional? frequent? misplaced passion and not be surprised that this is where we’ve gotten.
Dance…and piano…yup. I’ve been in those parent worlds too, and the ratio of broken kids to stars can be even greater than in hockey. Not necessarily a model to follow. But just like hockey—it’s great to help a kid know practice and perseverance and performance in dance or music or art or drama or sports or debate or scholastics can offer both personal and social rewards. But the kids aren’t the ones who take it over the edge unless parents let them or push them.

Before my kids’ hockey games, I’d tell ‘em “play hard –have fun”. They’re adults now. They all played in college, at different levels. They still play hockey in adult leagues. They drive themselves to games and tournaments. They still play hard. They still have fun. Isn’t that our real goal?
 
Re: Youth Sports - How much is too much

Good thread, and some thoughtful responses. Look at the ‘start dates’ on many of the commentors—these folk have been here a while, and usually speak with some pretty good insight.
And they responded quickly to this topic. Thanks for raising it.

So this is the state some parents have gotten to (and this kid isn’t doing it on her own) …but you gotta be pretty naive if you’ve read on this board for years the occasional? frequent? misplaced passion and not be surprised that this is where we’ve gotten.
Dance…and piano…yup. I’ve been in those parent worlds too, and the ratio of broken kids to stars can be even greater than in hockey. Not necessarily a model to follow. But just like hockey—it’s great to help a kid know practice and perseverance and performance in dance or music or art or drama or sports or debate or scholastics can offer both personal and social rewards. But the kids aren’t the ones who take it over the edge unless parents let them or push them.

Before my kids’ hockey games, I’d tell ‘em “play hard –have fun”. They’re adults now. They all played in college, at different levels. They still play hockey in adult leagues. They drive themselves to games and tournaments. They still play hard. They still have fun. Isn’t that our real goal?
 
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