jmh
win or lose, we booze
Re: World Soccer XI: To South Africa, and Beyond!
So they're one game worse than .500? That's hardly awful.
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World Soccer XI: To South Africa, and Beyond!
- Thread starter BoomGoestheDynamite
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Re: World Soccer XI: To South Africa, and Beyond!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/8374495.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/8374495.stm
Re: World Soccer XI: To South Africa, and Beyond!
Choking aside, LA gets all the favorable treatment from the league. Because they had Donovan under contract for a large amount prior to the implementation of the Designated Player rule (the salary-cap exempt roster spot that allowed an MLS team to sign someone like Beckham), they basically exempted Donovan's salary from the rule, in effect giving LA two DP's with only one slot.
Teams can get more than one DP, but they have to trade for that slot from another team. LA got theirs for free.
Choking aside, LA gets all the favorable treatment from the league. Because they had Donovan under contract for a large amount prior to the implementation of the Designated Player rule (the salary-cap exempt roster spot that allowed an MLS team to sign someone like Beckham), they basically exempted Donovan's salary from the rule, in effect giving LA two DP's with only one slot.
Teams can get more than one DP, but they have to trade for that slot from another team. LA got theirs for free.
jmh
win or lose, we booze
Re: World Soccer XI: To South Africa, and Beyond!
OK, right, but you know what I'm getting at.
Re: World Soccer XI: To South Africa, and Beyond!
Not hardly. Sure, there are some goalkeepers who just guess, but a significant number have real skill at reading penalty shooters. An example would be the NER vs. Houston shootout a few years back, where the two goaltenders (Matt Reis and Pat Onstad) are two of the best at saving penalties. All ten penalties, the goaltender was going the right way, and the win came down to which players executed the kicks better.
That's not to say that it's a good way to decide a winner, just that it's a disservice to some very skillful players to call it luck.
Not hardly. Sure, there are some goalkeepers who just guess, but a significant number have real skill at reading penalty shooters. An example would be the NER vs. Houston shootout a few years back, where the two goaltenders (Matt Reis and Pat Onstad) are two of the best at saving penalties. All ten penalties, the goaltender was going the right way, and the win came down to which players executed the kicks better.
That's not to say that it's a good way to decide a winner, just that it's a disservice to some very skillful players to call it luck.
Re: World Soccer XI: To South Africa, and Beyond!
No, but there's a pretty lengthy history of using a formula to seed, and the basic breakdown (half past WC performance, half FIFA rankings) hasn't changed in a long time. They made one change in 2006, where they switched from a 3-2-1 weighting of the last three World Cups to a 2-1 weighting of the last two World Cups, but as it turned out (perhaps by design), that didn't change who was seeded.
2002 and prior, the formula was 1/6 the most recent FIFA ranking in the same year, 1/6 the FIFA ranking from December of the prior year, 1/6 the FIFA ranking from two years prior, 1/4 performance in the previous WC, 1/6 performance from the two WCs prior, 1/12 performance from three WCs prior.
As I said, in 2006 they cut it down to two WCs, so 1/3 is performance from the prior WC and 1/6 is performance from two WCs prior.
The results are usually pretty sensible.
I don't know of anything that FIFA requires to be seeded with their rankings. They might have seeded the Confederations Cup that way, which makes sense, but I think in other things the confederations make their own choices.
No, but there's a pretty lengthy history of using a formula to seed, and the basic breakdown (half past WC performance, half FIFA rankings) hasn't changed in a long time. They made one change in 2006, where they switched from a 3-2-1 weighting of the last three World Cups to a 2-1 weighting of the last two World Cups, but as it turned out (perhaps by design), that didn't change who was seeded.
2002 and prior, the formula was 1/6 the most recent FIFA ranking in the same year, 1/6 the FIFA ranking from December of the prior year, 1/6 the FIFA ranking from two years prior, 1/4 performance in the previous WC, 1/6 performance from the two WCs prior, 1/12 performance from three WCs prior.
As I said, in 2006 they cut it down to two WCs, so 1/3 is performance from the prior WC and 1/6 is performance from two WCs prior.
The results are usually pretty sensible.
I don't know of anything that FIFA requires to be seeded with their rankings. They might have seeded the Confederations Cup that way, which makes sense, but I think in other things the confederations make their own choices.
Re: World Soccer XI: To South Africa, and Beyond!
It was eerie watching Donovan miss in the shootout in light of his appearance in a Bill Simmons podcast where one of the topics was approach to penalties, how tough Rimando is, how Donovan sometimes will alter where he shoots at the last minute, and how that sort of thing is the most likely reason for someone to shoot over the bar.
It was eerie watching Donovan miss in the shootout in light of his appearance in a Bill Simmons podcast where one of the topics was approach to penalties, how tough Rimando is, how Donovan sometimes will alter where he shoots at the last minute, and how that sort of thing is the most likely reason for someone to shoot over the bar.
Spartanforlife4
Generic Catchy Message
Re: World Soccer XI: To South Africa, and Beyond!
Liverpool or Arsenal tomorrow for the more secure chance to win?
Liverpool or Arsenal tomorrow for the more secure chance to win?
Shirtless Guy
Old Dirty Basterd
Re: World Soccer XI: To South Africa, and Beyond!
group formation and the duration of the preliminary competition. It
forms groups and/or sub-groups for the preliminary competition by
seeding and drawing lots whilst taking sports and geographic factors
into consideration, as far as possible. The FIFA Executive Committee has
to approve these decisions. Any seeding based on team performance
for each continental preliminary competition will be based on the FIFA/
Coca-Cola World Ranking. The decisions of the Executive Committee
are final. The preliminary draw will take place in Durban, South Africa
on 25 November 2007.
http://www.uefa.com/multimediafiles/download/competitions/worldcup/67/17/65/671765_download.pdf
page 20...
The FIFA Organising Committee decides on the format of play, the
group formation and the duration of the preliminary competition. It
forms groups and/or sub-groups for the preliminary competition by
seeding and drawing lots whilst taking sports and geographic factors
into consideration, as far as possible. The FIFA Executive Committee has
to approve these decisions. Any seeding based on team performance
for each continental preliminary competition will be based on the FIFA/
Coca-Cola World Ranking. The decisions of the Executive Committee
are final. The preliminary draw will take place in Durban, South Africa
on 25 November 2007.
http://www.uefa.com/multimediafiles/download/competitions/worldcup/67/17/65/671765_download.pdf
page 20...
Re: World Soccer XI: To South Africa, and Beyond!
I'd be happy with any of these CONCACAF draws. Between Portugal and Italy, you'd think one would struggle in the group stage. They always do. It's difficult to imagine a scenario beyond an own goal where we score on Italy, but 0-0 is a possibility.
I could even imagine us winning a group with South Africa, Denmark and South Korea. I could also imagine us 0-3 in that group, but ***?
As for the MLS Cup, I enjoyed the game. I hope the salary cap goes up next CBA. It would be nice to see more skilled foreign players to even out the teams. It's odd seeing MLS teams with one [or two, **** Galaxy] superstar and a four or five of hacks. In what soccer universe does Edson Buddle belong on the same field as Donovon/Beckham. I'd like to see a salary situation where teams can bring in some solid dependable players, not superstars, that can raise the level of play. We'll never surpass the FMF until we raise the level of the 7-11 players on the field. Just another of my crazy opinions.
I'd be happy with any of these CONCACAF draws. Between Portugal and Italy, you'd think one would struggle in the group stage. They always do. It's difficult to imagine a scenario beyond an own goal where we score on Italy, but 0-0 is a possibility.
I could even imagine us winning a group with South Africa, Denmark and South Korea. I could also imagine us 0-3 in that group, but ***?
As for the MLS Cup, I enjoyed the game. I hope the salary cap goes up next CBA. It would be nice to see more skilled foreign players to even out the teams. It's odd seeing MLS teams with one [or two, **** Galaxy] superstar and a four or five of hacks. In what soccer universe does Edson Buddle belong on the same field as Donovon/Beckham. I'd like to see a salary situation where teams can bring in some solid dependable players, not superstars, that can raise the level of play. We'll never surpass the FMF until we raise the level of the 7-11 players on the field. Just another of my crazy opinions.
AMC
Registered User
Re: World Soccer XI: To South Africa, and Beyond!
http://www.fifpro.org/index.php?mod=one&id=17327&PHPSESSID=ba385e239640992f9aefa1d3b4251796
global soccer players' union calls for FIFA action against the MLS... MLS player's union wants the MLS to follow the international guidelines. This would be a huuuuuuuge change. No more draft? Definitely no more league controlled contracts.
FIFA says they won't get involved: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/soccer/11/23/fifa.mls/index.html
http://www.fifpro.org/index.php?mod=one&id=17327&PHPSESSID=ba385e239640992f9aefa1d3b4251796
global soccer players' union calls for FIFA action against the MLS... MLS player's union wants the MLS to follow the international guidelines. This would be a huuuuuuuge change. No more draft? Definitely no more league controlled contracts.
FIFA says they won't get involved: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/soccer/11/23/fifa.mls/index.html
Last edited:
BoomGoestheDynamite
Registered User
Re: World Soccer XI: To South Africa, and Beyond!
Today on FSC: Premier League FanZone (that is, a game called by two supporters) -- Stoke v. Portsmouth.
1. They actually found two fans who haven't been dumbed into a stupor?
2. They actually found two fans willing to admit they support Stoke and/or Pompey?
3. They actually found two fans?
Seriously, aren't there rules preventing matches like this from being televised?
Today on FSC: Premier League FanZone (that is, a game called by two supporters) -- Stoke v. Portsmouth.
1. They actually found two fans who haven't been dumbed into a stupor?
2. They actually found two fans willing to admit they support Stoke and/or Pompey?
3. They actually found two fans?
Seriously, aren't there rules preventing matches like this from being televised?
Re: World Soccer XI: To South Africa, and Beyond!
As someone who doesn't follow MLS closely, this quote from the article really surprised me.
That's a pretty archaic way of running things. They stopped that kind of crazy thing in baseball over thirty years ago and European soccer fifteen years ago.
This is really more of a human rights issue than a soccer issue.
-----------------------------------
I really think MLS should pass something like the "50+1" concept with club licensing that they use in all the major European league except England and Italy so that teams cannot go into debt. Then just follow the European rules. The only fear the league has it that they'll overspend and go out of business. Well, effectively ban overspending and go out on the open market for players and TV contracts.
I think MLS executives see expansion teams and greater numbers at the turnstiles as the future financial windfall of the league, but I think ultimately the real financial windfall will come from TV and MLS, with its weak player base, is poorly positioned in terms of TV. I only get basic cable and every weekend I can get EPL, La Liga, Serie A and Bundesliga games along with Columbia, Brazil and some Argentine and Central American games. The reason I don't watch MLS is probably pretty obvious. If MLS ever wants to make any money from TV, they need a better product. I know they can't go into debt to do it, but they need to start doing something toward that goal and clinging to depression era "reserve clause" type player contracts isn't moving in the direction I think they need to go.
As someone who doesn't follow MLS closely, this quote from the article really surprised me.
That's a pretty archaic way of running things. They stopped that kind of crazy thing in baseball over thirty years ago and European soccer fifteen years ago.
This is really more of a human rights issue than a soccer issue.
-----------------------------------
I really think MLS should pass something like the "50+1" concept with club licensing that they use in all the major European league except England and Italy so that teams cannot go into debt. Then just follow the European rules. The only fear the league has it that they'll overspend and go out of business. Well, effectively ban overspending and go out on the open market for players and TV contracts.
I think MLS executives see expansion teams and greater numbers at the turnstiles as the future financial windfall of the league, but I think ultimately the real financial windfall will come from TV and MLS, with its weak player base, is poorly positioned in terms of TV. I only get basic cable and every weekend I can get EPL, La Liga, Serie A and Bundesliga games along with Columbia, Brazil and some Argentine and Central American games. The reason I don't watch MLS is probably pretty obvious. If MLS ever wants to make any money from TV, they need a better product. I know they can't go into debt to do it, but they need to start doing something toward that goal and clinging to depression era "reserve clause" type player contracts isn't moving in the direction I think they need to go.
Re: World Soccer XI: To South Africa, and Beyond!
Not to pile on, but yes John, it's quite clear that you don't follow MLS.
MLS is a single entity league - all contracts are between players and the league, not players and the individual teams. The league allocates each team a salary budget (essentially a salary cap) and they fill it accordingly.
Revenues for the overall salary budgets of all teams are pooled and shared.
This has (and still does) allow the richer teams to subsidize those in smaller markets. It contains costs. It, essentially, is the reason the league has managed to survive without allowing one rich team to outspend everyone else. It is both a deliberate move towards financial and competitive parity, and was structured as such for the long term stability and growth of the league.
Now that the league is more or less stable, they can (and will) loosen those restrictions - but the league is never going to revert to the kind of economic model you see in Europe. Nor should it. That model is not used by any other North American professional sports leagues.
MLS knows they need to improve their product, but they're also (smartly) going to do so by building from within, developing strong local fanbases and supporters groups, and competing within the continental competitions. Comparisons to La Liga and EPL should stop right there.
Not to pile on, but yes John, it's quite clear that you don't follow MLS.
MLS is a single entity league - all contracts are between players and the league, not players and the individual teams. The league allocates each team a salary budget (essentially a salary cap) and they fill it accordingly.
Revenues for the overall salary budgets of all teams are pooled and shared.
This has (and still does) allow the richer teams to subsidize those in smaller markets. It contains costs. It, essentially, is the reason the league has managed to survive without allowing one rich team to outspend everyone else. It is both a deliberate move towards financial and competitive parity, and was structured as such for the long term stability and growth of the league.
Now that the league is more or less stable, they can (and will) loosen those restrictions - but the league is never going to revert to the kind of economic model you see in Europe. Nor should it. That model is not used by any other North American professional sports leagues.
MLS knows they need to improve their product, but they're also (smartly) going to do so by building from within, developing strong local fanbases and supporters groups, and competing within the continental competitions. Comparisons to La Liga and EPL should stop right there.
Re: World Soccer XI: To South Africa, and Beyond!
I understand all the single-entity things and the structure of the league. I just think the structure has reached its limit and needs to be changed if the league wants to develop into a major profit producing entity. MLS now has viable and marketable teams. They've reached the end of the line. The only way to increase marketability and profit margins is to make the step from minor league to major league. That means meaningful TV money, not franchise expansion. MLS isn't going to attract a lot more investment unless TV rating increase. TV rating won't increase until the low quality of play increases. The quality of play won't increase until the league is willing to spend some cash on players 4-11 in the roster. David Beckham passing to Edson Buddle has more of a carnival atmosphere to it than a major sporting event. The trend of decent players developed in MLS going to Sweden, Norway and Denmark is just going to continue if MLS keeps giving these guys raw deals.
Right now, MLS is a cute little minor sports enterprise with a limited, low profit, regional future. It's only purpose is to provide development opportunities for the USMNT and allow the USSF to have a "domestic league" so they can get another World Cup. If you're satisfied , I don't have a problem with that, but don't be surprised that people, and I mean true soccer fans, don't care about or follow the league.
I understand all the single-entity things and the structure of the league. I just think the structure has reached its limit and needs to be changed if the league wants to develop into a major profit producing entity. MLS now has viable and marketable teams. They've reached the end of the line. The only way to increase marketability and profit margins is to make the step from minor league to major league. That means meaningful TV money, not franchise expansion. MLS isn't going to attract a lot more investment unless TV rating increase. TV rating won't increase until the low quality of play increases. The quality of play won't increase until the league is willing to spend some cash on players 4-11 in the roster. David Beckham passing to Edson Buddle has more of a carnival atmosphere to it than a major sporting event. The trend of decent players developed in MLS going to Sweden, Norway and Denmark is just going to continue if MLS keeps giving these guys raw deals.
Right now, MLS is a cute little minor sports enterprise with a limited, low profit, regional future. It's only purpose is to provide development opportunities for the USMNT and allow the USSF to have a "domestic league" so they can get another World Cup. If you're satisfied , I don't have a problem with that, but don't be surprised that people, and I mean true soccer fans, don't care about or follow the league.
BoomGoestheDynamite
Registered User
Re: World Soccer XI: To South Africa, and Beyond!
Great summary. The shorthand I've always found helpful is MLS decided to follow the NFL model as opposed to the NASL model. Without this structure the league could've folded in the lean years (1999-2003 or so).
Great summary. The shorthand I've always found helpful is MLS decided to follow the NFL model as opposed to the NASL model. Without this structure the league could've folded in the lean years (1999-2003 or so).
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