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Women's NCAA Tourney Expansion

ARM said:
I'm totally on your side regarding the travel restrictions. However, I think that there are other women's sports that get the short end. Like with volleyball, it isn't the first round that's the problem with regionalism, because as you say, there isn't much difference between teams near the bottom of the field. But I do think that there are times when they stretch those subsequent pairings due to travel. With your example, a #3 seed should be looking ahead to a #30 in the second round, going strictly by the numbers. The problem comes when there isn't any team close to #30 with in range of the host site, so the committee instead fills that slot with the #20 team. That isn't fair to the teams at #3 or #20, any more than a #1 Wisconsin having to host a #5 UMD in a quarter on the ice. I think softball is the same way. I'm guessing that the other sports (soccer, lacrosse, field hockey, etc.) are in the same boat, but I don't pay any attention to them, so can't say.
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I looked back at the last half-dozen years of the UW volleyball team hosting, and you can't prove it by their second round matches (where the #3 vs #30 would come): UCLA, Pepperdine, (legitimately; I think it was #16 vs #17) at Iowa State, Oregon (though it would have been Marquette if MU had been able to upset Oregon).

The next place I would look is at Penn State; the reputation is that Russ Rose always manages to get a pretty easy path to the round of 16, etc. so there may be some examples for mis-matching there. But the NCAA has had no qualms about making teams travel a good distance to Madison for volleyball. (Hawaii was here to play Nebraska in the round of 16 in 2019.)
 
robertearle said:
I looked back at the last half-dozen years of the UW volleyball team hosting, and you can't prove it by their second round matches (where the #3 vs #30 would come): UCLA, Pepperdine, (legitimately; I think it was #16 vs #17) at Iowa State, Oregon (though it would have been Marquette if MU had been able to upset Oregon).

The next place I would look is at Penn State; the reputation is that Russ Rose always manages to get a pretty easy path to the round of 16, etc. so there may be some examples for mis-matching there. But the NCAA has had no qualms about making teams travel a good distance to Madison for volleyball. (Hawaii was here to play Nebraska in the round of 16 in 2019.)
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Hawaii came to Minneapolis in consecutive seasons, although one was the regional round. Hawaii always has to travel, because there isn't a host within driving distance, unless Hawaii is hosting, and then the problem is multiplied by three. In these non-basketball sports, I think that if committees are faced with having a site that needs another team and a team that is too high or low for what the bracket would indicate, they will push the ranking and claim it was justified by "looking at the entire body of work." Granted, the degree of stretching may vary from sport to sport.
 
TitleIXHockey said:
Wish list:
  • No more minimizing flights. Get ready for Wisconsin getting a bye and playing the winner of Minnesota - UMD if they don't get rid of this.
  • Reseed after all rounds. I don't think #3 should luck out and get #11 if they win.
  • Play the frozen four at bigger arenas.
  • Fix the ticket purchases so we don't have a 2018 type scenario where the someone's fans buy all the tickets then leave the arena half empty because Colgate was better.
  • If you have the second frozen four game and the first one goes to OT, you get banned for life if you complain.
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Agree on all accounts.
 
TitleIXHockey said:
[*]Reseed after all rounds. I don't think #3 should luck out and get #11 if they win.
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Is there an NCAA tournament where they reseed? AFAIK, the conference tournaments do a reseed, but the NCAA never does in any of its tournaments. If they don't do it for men's BB, it isn't going to happen somewhere else.
 
If we assume that the tournament will still happen over two weekends, then they will have to play the games in 'regionals', like they do with other sports and tournaments. That is, the 8/9 game gets played at the home rink of the #1 team, 6/11 gets played at the #3 site.

And that precludes reseeding.

(Regionals also means that #11 doesn't have to travel twice if they pull off the upset of #6.)
 
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robertearle said:
If we assume that the tournament will still happen over two weekends, then they will have to play the games in 'regionals', like they do with other sports and tournaments. That is, the 8/9 game gets played at the home rink of the #1 team, 6/11 gets played at the #3 site.

And that precludes reseeding.

(Regionals also means that #11 doesn't have to travel twice if they pull off the upset of #6.)
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Just so they don’t have Wisco and OSU meet until the championship game…
 
thirdtime's . . . said:
Everyone should read Nicole Haase today on “malicious compliance."
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Getting to 11 when we all thought that any expansion would never happen it all is a great plus for the sport, especially such an immediate response from the NCAA. I'm ok with improving step by step. This is a great first step.
 
The minute Stonehill women's ice hockey takes the ice in 2022-23, the "malicious compliance" bites the NCAA because there will now be 42 teams competing in National Collegiate women's ice hockey and the percentage will be lower.
 
ARM said:
Is there an NCAA tournament where they reseed? AFAIK, the conference tournaments do a reseed, but the NCAA never does in any of its tournaments. If they don't do it for men's BB, it isn't going to happen somewhere else.
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No but I also don't know of any other where the field is this small. If a 15 beats a 2 in basketball, they probably get 7 next, and 3 or 10 after that. Less of a big deal, IMO
 
Also I vote for having the tournament in cities with decent airports and public transit.
Minneapolis
Chicago
Philadelphia
Columbus
New York City
Boston
Detroit

Maybe DC, maybe try some west expansion in Denver or Seattle
 
TonyTheTiger20 said:
Should be:
1 v 8/9
2 v 7/10
3 v 6/11
4 v 5

Top 5 get first round byes.
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If 11 teams is now a given, this is what I'd do.

The byes, however, are a potential problem. If you really play the first two rounds on the home ice of the top seed, on the same weekend, you've created an enormous advantage for the top 3 seeds. The higher seed already has home ice, home locker room, etc. Add in the fact they'll be a rested team against a potentially tired team, and you given the underdogs a very tall mountain to climb.

The Men's tournament had a twelve team tournament for a period of years, and used the first round byes. Those tourneys featured a pair of six team regionals, with each regional producing 2 Frozen Four teams. I attended several of these tournaments. They were great shows for the fans.

But the downside was that complaining on the byes began almost immediately. And it was understandable. Over and over again, you could see the higher seed gain the upper hand as the underdog began to tire. With a FF berth on the line. As the saying goes, those who cannot remember history are condemned to repeat it. If we don't get a 3rd weekend for the upgraded tournament, brace yourself for this scenario.

Don't get me wrong. I'm grateful for the expansion. An 11 team field is a little funky, but the three additional teams are definitely going to be grateful for those spots. To my ear, it sounds like a divided group of decision-makers split the difference between 10 & 12. I highly doubt that disrespect was intended. To the extent that any questionable motives were involved, my guess would be that paying for 1 less team to travel is the culprit.

Ultimately my hope is that the 11 team field is just a stepping stone on the way to a 16 team tournament for the Women.
 
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TitleIXHockey said:
Also I vote for having the tournament in cities with decent airports and public transit.
Minneapolis
Chicago
Philadelphia
Columbus
New York City
Boston
Detroit

Maybe DC, maybe try some west expansion in Denver or Seattle
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I'm flattered & grateful that Columbus made your list. We usually don't get much respect when we're proposed as a FF host.

John Glenn Airport, formerly known as Port Columbus, is medium sized and user friendly. From many cities you'll need to charge planes once. But usually that's about it. At least if you originate from the States were Women's D-1 Hockey is played. So I'm on board with "Decent Airport."

Mass transit? COTA (Bus Service) tries, but usually leaves something to be desired. Trains? Not Applicable. I'm afraid it's an all too typical Midwestern scenario. Automobile drivers are well taken care of. But mass transit riders, not so much.

If Nationwide Arena hosted, public transportation could work. Fly in, then bus or taxi to get to our Downtown/Arena District. Stay in one of the hotels within walking distance of the Arena.

But my biggest concern would be that both Nationwide Arena & The Schottenstein Center @ OSU would be both be too large for the event. Conversely, the OSU Ice Rink and the Suburban "Chiller" Rinks don't offer enough seating.

One more reaction; one that might surprise you. I actually think that a sold-out Cheel would make for an amazing tournament. I've been to Potsdam a couple of times, and enjoyed both visits. I realize travel would be a challenge, regardless of the mode of transportation. FWIW, I drove from Columbus both times.

The tournament atmosphere would be good regardless of the participating teams. It would be off the charts if Clarkson made the 4 four team field. Or at least that's my perception.
 
Piggy backing of something that Nicole wrote in her articles.... when are 2022 Frozen Four tix going on sale????
 
joecct said:
RIT jumped up to D1 after the prohibition on D3 playups offering scholarships passed but before the ban on all playups happened.

Union could have added scholarships as they were a playup before the scholarship ban passed, but declined.

Unless there's a change in legislation, they're stuck.
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There is a vote on January 22 to do just that -- change this legislation. This will only affect RIT and Union.

The reason for the push now is because no play-ups are allowed anymore. So, there will no longer be an issue of D3 schools trying to give scholarships for just one D1 sport. Therefore, since it will only affect RIT and Union, the argument is to get everyone on an even playing field because it won't change again.
 
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