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Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

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Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

I have to agree with wojo: there's a lot of circumstantial stuff involved with recruiting that makes it hard to make an apples to apples comparison. Especially when it comes to kids who leave programs early- we've learned the hard way how unpredictable that side of the equation can be.

On the other side of the token: several other coaches of top-flight programs have not had the same depths as we have in past years, and most of them have considerably more conference hardware (something we've historically struggled with) to show for it.
 
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

I think we can compare Eaves and Berenson head to head. they compete for many of the same recruits and Michigan doesn't have a lock on all Michigan-born talent like Lucia does on Minnesota kids.

for now I'm going w/NCAA rings and Eaves loses out on that score 2-1 and 2-1. with NCAA appearances he loses as well. we'll know all we need to know not this year but in 3 years I think when these current kids are all gone, will they re-load or re-build?
 
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

Just wanted to note that there is much more that goes into winning than recruiting rankings. Wisconsin had three first round draft picks, and a second round draft pick in their 2007 class. Did they win a ring? No. Minnesota had four first round draft picks in their 2006 class. Did they win a ring? No. Minnesota had four first round draft picks and a second round draft pick in their 2005 class. Did they win a ring? No.

Only two of those high end guys even played in a Frozen Four and that was Brendan Smith and Ryan McDonagh in 2010.

I sat at Select 15's in St. Cloud and watched with my own two eyes Seth Ambroz absolutely dominate the action against the best players in the entire country. He was a can't miss prospect and people pegged him as a top 5 player for his NHL draft year. Everyone in the crowd was drooling over this kid including every college coach in the building.

The point is hockey games are won on the ice, not on Heisenberg's recruiting site. Minnesota has some studs coming in? Yeah, no kidding. What year have they not had a good recruiting class? Michigan and Minnesota have two of the top 5 recruiting classes every single year. Same can be said for a lot of high end school. But it's the development of these kids over the next 3-5 years that makes the difference between winning games and losing games.
 
Just wanted to note that there is much more that goes into winning than recruiting rankings. Wisconsin had three first round draft picks, and a second round draft pick in their 2007 class. Did they win a ring? No. Minnesota had four first round draft picks in their 2006 class. Did they win a ring? No. Minnesota had four first round draft picks and a second round draft pick in their 2005 class. Did they win a ring? No.

Only two of those high end guys even played in a Frozen Four and that was Brendan Smith and Ryan McDonagh in 2010.

I sat at Select 15's in St. Cloud and watched with my own two eyes Seth Ambroz absolutely dominate the action against the best players in the entire country. He was a can't miss prospect and people pegged him as a top 5 player for his NHL draft year. Everyone in the crowd was drooling over this kid including every college coach in the building.

The point is hockey games are won on the ice, not on Heisenberg's recruiting site. Minnesota has some studs coming in? Yeah, no kidding. What year have they not had a good recruiting class? Michigan and Minnesota have two of the top 5 recruiting classes every single year. Same can be said for a lot of high end school. But it's the development of these kids over the next 3-5 years that makes the difference between winning games and losing games.

This.
 
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

All that said, Chuck, it would seem that Eaves' ability to develop talent has provided more results in the NHL than it has in Madison.

I have a hard time making sense of that disparity.

I agree w/this 1000% *and* I also understand what Chuck is saying...I guess bottom line is Jerry York has figured out how to get it done and the rest of the coaches really haven't. So for now, we wait to see what the next 2-3 years bring
 
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

I agree w/this 1000% *and* I also understand what Chuck is saying...I guess bottom line is Jerry York has figured out how to get it done and the rest of the coaches really haven't. So for now, we wait to see what the next 2-3 years bring

Eaves needs a constant train of top end guys coming in every year. Every year you need 1 stud D and 2 stud F coming in, which assuming every year you lose a std D and 2 stud F early, you always have 3 stud D and 6 stud F on the roster. That gives you scoring through the first 3 lines, 2 good PP units and more than likely 3 solid sets of D. Obviously way easier said than done, especially with unbalanced classes. Right now he doesn't have that constant train, it's too sporadic to have consistent success.
 
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

Just wanted to note that there is much more that goes into winning than recruiting rankings. Wisconsin had three first round draft picks, and a second round draft pick in their 2007 class. Did they win a ring? No. Minnesota had four first round draft picks in their 2006 class. Did they win a ring? No. Minnesota had four first round draft picks and a second round draft pick in their 2005 class. Did they win a ring? No.

Only two of those high end guys even played in a Frozen Four and that was Brendan Smith and Ryan McDonagh in 2010.

I sat at Select 15's in St. Cloud and watched with my own two eyes Seth Ambroz absolutely dominate the action against the best players in the entire country. He was a can't miss prospect and people pegged him as a top 5 player for his NHL draft year. Everyone in the crowd was drooling over this kid including every college coach in the building.

The point is hockey games are won on the ice, not on Heisenberg's recruiting site. Minnesota has some studs coming in? Yeah, no kidding. What year have they not had a good recruiting class? Michigan and Minnesota have two of the top 5 recruiting classes every single year. Same can be said for a lot of high end school. But it's the development of these kids over the next 3-5 years that makes the difference between winning games and losing games.

I would add that college coaches get too much credit or blame for that development or lack thereof. The great majority of "development" is genetic. There is some environmental impact, but every kid has his potential and there is nothing a coach can do about that. The key is recruiting as many high potentials that you can and then hoping they have the intangibles to reach that potential. Recruiting to the more difficult to identify intangibles is the key these days.
 
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

I agree w/this 1000% *and* I also understand what Chuck is saying...I guess bottom line is Jerry York has figured out how to get it done and the rest of the coaches really haven't. So for now, we wait to see what the next 2-3 years bring

York has buttered his bread with small players that are highly skilled and have wheels, but are either not NHL ready or are drafted in the latter rounds because of concerns around size/durability at the next level. For every Chris Kreider, there are 3-4 players who are highly effective in the college game, but may not translate into impact NHL'ers, let alone ever play in the NHL.

Look no farther than Ben Eaves as a perfect example of the prototypical BC player.
 
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

All that said, Chuck, it would seem that Eaves' ability to develop talent has provided more results in the NHL than it has in Madison.

I have a hard time making sense of that disparity.

I have to disagree somewhat...the high end talent that has moved through Madison and ultimately into the NHL was generally all very productive in college as well. It's not as if Pavelski, Craig Smith, McDonagh, Geoffrion, McBain, Brendan Smith, and on and on were bums in college and suddenly morphed into good players when they signed their pro contract. The problem is that that talent flow has been uneven (some by premature departure as well as other circumstances) and that in general, a lot of that high end talent is coming in as legit 18 year old frosh competing in a league that generally is won by the teams with good upperclass nucleuses. The 06 title team won not so much because argueable the best pro players (Pavelski, Gilbert, & Elliott) but by virtue of them all being 21, 22, & 23 years old with a solid collection of upperclassmen supplementing their skills. Guys like MacMurchy, Joudrey, Dowell, Burish, Ross Carlson, Licari, ect that were all old enough to legally have a beer. Likewise, look at the 2010 runner up team roster and specifically the quantity of upperclassmen (and the high end NHL guys that stuck around to their Jr & even Sr year like Geoffrion).

The Badgers woes have been at times lacking upperclass kids that have been through the battles to supplement the high end kids that are generally only in college 2 or 3 years at most. 18 year old kids like LaBate, McCabe, & Mersch will be good in college as frosh and better as sophs, but the trick is can you hang on to a few of those kids for that 3rd or even 4th year (like Gilbert or Geoffrion) and have enough upperclass talent/leadership to be a legit contender.
 
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Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

Way too long for a post here, but I took in the Central District festival this Saturday. Notes on some players if any of you are interested.

LINK
 
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

York has buttered his bread with small players that are highly skilled and have wheels, but are either not NHL ready or are drafted in the latter rounds because of concerns around size/durability at the next level. For every Chris Kreider, there are 3-4 players who are highly effective in the college game, but may not translate into impact NHL'ers, let alone ever play in the NHL.

Look no farther than Ben Eaves as a perfect example of the prototypical BC player.

I'd like Eaves to get more of these types of players. He does have 1st Star and Lee, who maybe fit this model, and I'd say Davies did as well.
 
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

I think we can compare Eaves and Berenson head to head. they compete for many of the same recruits and Michigan doesn't have a lock on all Michigan-born talent like Lucia does on Minnesota kids.

for now I'm going w/NCAA rings and Eaves loses out on that score 2-1 and 2-1. with NCAA appearances he loses as well. we'll know all we need to know not this year but in 3 years I think when these current kids are all gone, will they re-load or re-build?
You can't compare one with 28 years as coach and the other with 10. If you are talking about those 2 going head to head for recruits and success, you can only use the last 10 years. Berenson has no rings.
 
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

Baggot talked to Tischke's coach today.

"He's physical, he reads the play and he hits like a freight train.''

"His compete level is off the charts,'' Cavallini said of Tischke, who was a second-round U.S. Hockey League draft pick of Des Moines. "He does what it takes to win.''
 
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

Forgot to mention this earlier in the week but here are the Wisconsin kids that advanced to Rochester (with my brief scouting report):

Of note IMO Luke Davison (Notre Dame Academy) and Cooper Watson (Appleton HS) were egregiously left off the select 16 list, as was Jackson Charlesworth (Antigo) from the select 15 list. All 3 deserve to be in Rochester.

Also, if you're curious why the numbers drop off so much for the older players there are a few things in play. One, they take less kids. Select 15's take 7D and 13F. Select 16's take 6D and 10F. Select 17's take 5 D, and 9 F.

Also, a lot of players for whatever reason don't try out. Wisconsin recruit Jake Linhart from Brookfield decided not to tryout this year. Also, guys that would be eligible for Select 17's like Ian McCoshen (Hudson, playing for Waterloo in the USHL), Travis Wood (Hudson, playing for Erie in the OHL), and Will Butcher (Sun Prairie, playing for the NTDP) obviously weren't there to tryout.

Select 15's:


D-Anthony Stillwell-Notre Dame Academy (5'6, 134): Tiny kid at 5'6, 134 pounds right now. When I talked to his high school coach at NDA last winter he really liked this kid and talked about UW recruit Tim Davison taking him under his wing. He moves well and is an incredible passer but will those skills make up for his lack of size? We'll see.

D-Adam Parsells-Wausau West HS (6'4, 175): If we could mesh Parsells and Stillwell we'd have one hell of a defenseman. Incredible size for his age at 6'4, 175. He was decent here, not great. Going to have to improve his skating, but you can't teach 6'4.

F-Tarek Baker-Verona HS (5'6, 150): Pleasantly surprised with this Wisconsinite. I'd be surprised if he doesn't move on to the next stage in Rochester. Has some nice offensive flair and really makes defensemen nervous with his skill level. Scored a goal right in front of me and set another one up.

F-Sam McCormick-Notre Dame Academy (5'8, 148):
McCormick grew on me as the game wore on. He needs to improve his skating but he's intelligent and makes the correct play with the puck. You could sense his anticipation skills were elite. Older brother plays at Ohio State.

F-Tom Novak-St. Thomas Academy (From River Falls) (5'10, 150):
Loved him when I saw him in the Minnesota state tournament this spring and felt the same way this weekend. 5'10, 150 and has a lot of potential. Too early to tell what his ceiling is but with the coaching he's going to get with Team Wisconsin and at St. Thomas you have to like his future. Some kids just score goals and Novak scores goals.

F-Ty Pelton-Byce-Madison Memorial HS (6'0, 160): Good bloodlines and good frame at 6'0, 160. Another kid who's going to have to keep working on his skating but I like the potential here.

Select 16's:

D-Keegan Ford-Waunakee HS (5'9, 177): Don't let his size (5'9, 177) fool you, Ford is a future D1 hockey player. Dubuque of the USHL used a tender on him and I can see why. He's only 5'9 but he's got a thick lower half and isn't afraid to hit. He's always positionally aware and you can tell he really thinks the game. Advanced.

F-Charley Grasskamp-Eau Claire Memorial HS (6'2, 170): Liked him, didn't love him. 6'2, 170 and gangly. Certainly not going to write him off as he looks like the perfect late bloomer candidate. Going to need to improve his skating.

F-Brett Gruber-Notre Dame Academy (5'8, 158): Gruber's prospect status is always going to be tied to his size (5'8, 158). The problem is that every time you try and doubt him, he makes a play. He's a pure goal scorer and has a rare knack to find areas where he can get open to score goals. If he gets the puck in a shooting lane, he buries it.

Select 17's:

F-Drew Callin-Milwaukee Jr. Admirals U18 (From Middleton) (6'1, 175): Have not seen him play yet.
 
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Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

Forgot to mention this earlier in the week but here are the Wisconsin kids that advanced to Rochester (with my brief scouting report):

Of note IMO Luke Davison (Notre Dame Academy) and Cooper Watson (Appleton HS) were egregiously left off the select 16 list, as was Jackson Charlesworth (Antigo) from the select 15 list. All 3 deserve to be in Rochester.

Also, if you're curious why the numbers drop off so much for the older players there are a few things in play. One, they take less kids. Select 15's take 7D and 13F. Select 16's take 6D and 10F. Select 17's take 5 D, and 9 F.

Also, a lot of players for whatever reason don't try out. Wisconsin recruit Jake Linhart from Brookfield decided not to tryout this year. Also, guys that would be eligible for Select 17's like Ian McCoshen (Hudson, playing for Waterloo in the USHL), Travis Wood (Hudson, playing for Erie in the OHL), and Will Butcher (Sun Prairie, playing for the NTDP) obviously weren't there to tryout.

Select 15's:


D-Anthony Stillwell-Notre Dame Academy (5'6, 134): Tiny kid at 5'6, 134 pounds right now. When I talked to his high school coach at NDA last winter he really liked this kid and talked about UW recruit Tim Davison taking him under his wing. He moves well and is an incredible passer but will those skills make up for his lack of size? We'll see.

D-Adam Parsells-Wausau West HS (6'4, 175): If we could mesh Parsells and Stillwell we'd have one hell of a defenseman. Incredible size for his age at 6'4, 175. He was decent here, not great. Going to have to improve his skating, but you can't teach 6'4.

F-Tarek Baker-Verona HS (5'6, 150): Pleasantly surprised with this Wisconsinite. I'd be surprised if he doesn't move on to the next stage in Rochester. Has some nice offensive flair and really makes defensemen nervous with his skill level. Scored a goal right in front of me and set another one up.

F-Sam McCormick-Notre Dame Academy (5'8, 148):
McCormick grew on me as the game wore on. He needs to improve his skating but he's intelligent and makes the correct play with the puck. You could sense his anticipation skills were elite. Older brother plays at Ohio State.

F-Tom Novak-St. Thomas Academy (From River Falls) (5'10, 150):
Loved him when I saw him in the Minnesota state tournament this spring and felt the same way this weekend. 5'10, 150 and has a lot of potential. Too early to tell what his ceiling is but with the coaching he's going to get with Team Wisconsin and at St. Thomas you have to like his future. Some kids just score goals and Novak scores goals.

F-Ty Pelton-Byce-Madison Memorial HS (6'0, 160): Good bloodlines and good frame at 6'0, 160. Another kid who's going to have to keep working on his skating but I like the potential here.

Select 16's:

D-Keegan Ford-Waunakee HS (5'9, 177): Don't let his size (5'9, 177) fool you, Ford is a future D1 hockey player. Dubuque of the USHL used a tender on him and I can see why. He's only 5'9 but he's got a thick lower half and isn't afraid to hit. He's always positionally aware and you can tell he really thinks the game. Advanced.

F-Charley Grasskamp-Eau Claire Memorial HS (6'2, 170): Liked him, didn't love him. 6'2, 170 and gangly. Certainly not going to write him off as he looks like the perfect late bloomer candidate. Going to need to improve his skating.

F-Brett Gruber-Notre Dame Academy (5'8, 158): Gruber's prospect status is always going to be tied to his size (5'8, 158). The problem is that every time you try and doubt him, he makes a play. He's a pure goal scorer and has a rare knack to find areas where he can get open to score goals. If he gets the puck in a shooting lane, he buries it.

Select 17's:

F-Drew Callin-Milwaukee Jr. Admirals U18 (From Middleton) (6'1, 175): Have not seen him play yet.

excellent update!

any thoughts on UW potentially landing the Dvorak kid?

is Byce John Byce's son?
 
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting: Filling the foundation with 5 stars

excellent update!

any thoughts on UW potentially landing the Dvorak kid?

is Byce John Byce's son?

I'd say that UW's chances with Dvorak are at least 50%. I know that Notre Dame is also in the hunt, not sure who else. Can't hurt that 3 of his teammates are committed to Wisconsin.

I'm 95% sure that Ty is John Byce's son, maybe Mad City Rich can confirm that.
 
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