Wisconsin Hockey XXXVI: Stop looking for the silver lining and ignoring the problem!!

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXVI: Stop looking for the silver lining and ignoring the probl

Why not? Why isn't it fair? I know why the fall in recruiting happened, but why shouldn't we be expecting to land the top recruits?

Just to speed the onslaught along I'll go ahead with what I assume part of the argument would be. There are probably 3- 5 teams in Women's hockey that an elite recruit would consider. There are probably at least 15-20 teams in Men's hockey under legitimate consideration, perhaps more. Plus the CHL draws elite players from the men's pool. Elite men's players are spread out and competed for 10 or 20x more.

Which doesn't answer your expectations rephrasing, but to be fair, Kamigo didn't say there should be no expectation of any top recruits.


Ok, go ahead, everybody have a ball with that.

 

[solovsfett]

While there is certainly many differences in recruiting on the Men's vs Women's programs....I think what ****es off the masses is that we used to get the top recruits and consistently had Badgers representing teams on the World Junior stage. Our teams were filled with NHL draft choices and the seats were filled at the Kohl and the Great Dane.

I guess where I am going with this is under Coach Excuse we are becoming irrelevant to the next generation of player. These kids never experienced the rocking full buildings and national championships. What they see is an unsuccessful program with a head coach who has a tainted reputation in the hockey circles, playing in a half empty building.

This is what has become of the once proud program under Eaves.

Exactly!

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXVI: Stop looking for the silver lining and ignoring the probl

Just to speed the onslaught along I'll go ahead with what I assume part of the argument would be. There are probably 3- 5 teams in Women's hockey that an elite recruit would consider. There are probably at least 15-20 teams in Men's hockey under legitimate consideration, perhaps more. Plus the CHL draws elite players from the men's pool. Elite men's players are spread out and competed for 10 or 20x more.

Which doesn't answer your expectations rephrasing, but to be fair, Kamigo didn't say there should be no expectation of any top recruits.

Ok, go ahead, everybody have a ball with that.

You are correct. UW and UM practically recruit themselves by name and reputation only. The UW Women are battling the rodents primarily for the elite recruits (UW and UM have won 7 out of the last 10 ncaa titles and played for the title in 9 of the last 10), and then BC and maybe Harvard. UMD used to be a power, but have fallen off the map. It's not apples to oranges, it's apples to bolts. In this era, how many men's programs recruit by name and reputation only?

I do think the men's college hockey talent pool is as deep as ever, how else does Providence and Quinnipiac do it? This thought should make it easier for UW to recruit, so that does make Eaves/Schuey look even worse. I want to give Strand and Bittner a chance to improve the recruiting.

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXVI: Stop looking for the silver lining and ignoring the probl

You are correct. UW and UM practically recruit themselves by name and reputation only. The UW Women are battling the rodents primarily for the elite recruits (UW and UM have won 7 out of the last 10 ncaa titles and played for the title in 9 of the last 10), and then BC and maybe Harvard. UMD used to be a power, but have fallen off the map. It's not apples to oranges, it's apples to bolts. In this era, how many men's programs recruit by name and reputation only?

I do think the men's college hockey talent pool is as deep as ever, how else does Providence and Quinnipiac do it? This thought should make it easier for UW to recruit, so that does make Eaves/Schuey look even worse. I want to give Strand and Bittner a chance to improve the recruiting.

I was thinking maybe UND instead of Harvard but even then, UM, UW, and then maybe BC are splitting up the elite players for the most part it seems.

The thing about the talent pool is that no matter how big it is, there still are only a small number of truly elite players. Look at football for example. Millions of kids play football, but there are usually still only about 30 or so "5 star" recruits each year.

How Q and Providence and Union are doing it is 4 year players, so a regular supply of 22-25 year old upperclassmen, including a healthy dash of overage Canadians. They aren't going out in the summer and having to find or accelerate guys to fill fall spots because guys that insisted they were coming back, or coming in, didn't.

And why they leave early is beyond me with few exceptions. Mike Mersch, (who I'm sure everyone looked at as a freshman and immediately thought "NHL talent" right?) 4 year guy, called up to the show today. Nic Kerdiles, two year guy, is sitting at 5 PP goals plus 1 g 2a for 8 pts. and last on the team at -11 in 21 games. I got tons of argument here about how ready he was to go. Now he's knocking his brains out on buses, getting further from the show every day, instead of having a degree, some more maturity, and possibly an All-American label.

Interesting fact I came across pertaining to 20 win seasons: There have been only 5 teams who have managed to put together more than 4 consecutive 20 wins seasons in the last 10 years. (Union, BC, DU, Miami, UND) Yet from the early 80's to the early 90's (when there were 40 something D-1 teams) at least 16 (or around 1/3) teams in college hockey boasted 4 or more consecutive seasons with 20+wins.

 

[markwojo]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXVI: Stop looking for the silver lining and ignoring the probl

Here's the one overriding factor when comparing mens verses womans hockey recruiting....there are WAY few girls playing. While men have way more viable options both in college and in juniors, there are like 10 or 20 (or even) more times as many to pick from. Seriously how many "elite" girl hockey players are there that can help at the upper end of D1 each year? A few dozen? On the men's side of things there has to be literally hundreds every recruiting year that can truly play at an upper D1 level.

Please spare me the how are you supposed to deal with guys leaving early like most of the guys that have left have been some huge shocker. Minnesota, North Dakota, BC and the rest have guys leave early too....only difference there is they have a couple guys lined up every year ready to come in and there isn't the drop off we have here under Eaves when one "shockingly" leaves early. Kerdilies put up a point a game from day one and somehow Eaves is shocked he didn't stay for his junior year? Seriously? Maybe he would have had Eaves recruited a little more around him in his class and the following one and he had guys that could play near his level and have some team success in his junior year. Instead, the boom bust cycle of Eaves at UW was painfully obviously written on the wall and Nic and Anaheim probably weren't overly interested in having him stick around to be a "difference maker" in trying to lead the Badgers to double digit wins verses the 4 they managed without him. Why would a high level player stick around to play on a roster as thin as last years? For every Kerdilies that was a point a game guys through 2 years, I can give you a Stepan and Craig Smith that were quite successful transitioning right into the NHL w/o even a cup of coffee in the A. Incidently, Kerdilies is 21 while Mersch is 23 so not shocking he would find his way toward the NHL sooner. Here's the other difference between the two, Mersch had pretty talented veteran rosters to stay for his junior and senior years.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXVI: Stop looking for the silver lining and ignoring the probl

How Q and Providence and Union are doing it is 4 year players, so a regular supply of 22-25 year old upperclassmen, including a healthy dash of overage Canadians. They aren't going out in the summer and having to find or accelerate guys to fill fall spots because guys that insisted they were coming back, or coming in, didn't.

I'd love to see UW go that route. I don't care if another former player makes it to the NHL, I want wins at UW. If that means 21-25 yr old Canadians, so be it. Just win baby.

 

[solovsfett]

I'd love to see UW go that route. I don't care if another former player makes it to the NHL, I want wins at UW. If that means 21-25 yr old Canadians, so be it. Just win baby.

Can't have over age Canucks, Mikey is part of the group of coaches crying about overagers in ncaa hockey

 

[KaMiGo]

Can't have over age Canucks, Mikey is part of the group of coaches crying about overagers in ncaa hockey

Please, show me any evidence from any source that shows Eaves as part of this proposal. There probably isn't any, but that's OK, you hate him so guilty by association is good enough.

 

[Almington]

Here's the one overriding factor when comparing mens verses womans hockey recruiting....there are WAY few girls playing. While men have way more viable options both in college and in juniors, there are like 10 or 20 (or even) more times as many to pick from. Seriously how many "elite" girl hockey players are there that can help at the upper end of D1 each year? A few dozen? On the men's side of things there has to be literally hundreds every recruiting year that can truly play at an upper D1 level.

Please spare me the how are you supposed to deal with guys leaving early like most of the guys that have left have been some huge shocker. Minnesota, North Dakota, BC and the rest have guys leave early too....only difference there is they have a couple guys lined up every year ready to come in and there isn't the drop off we have here under Eaves when one "shockingly" leaves early. Kerdilies put up a point a game from day one and somehow Eaves is shocked he didn't stay for his junior year? Seriously? Maybe he would have had Eaves recruited a little more around him in his class and the following one and he had guys that could play near his level and have some team success in his junior year. Instead, the boom bust cycle of Eaves at UW was painfully obviously written on the wall and Nic and Anaheim probably weren't overly interested in having him stick around to be a "difference maker" in trying to lead the Badgers to double digit wins verses the 4 they managed without him. Why would a high level player stick around to play on a roster as thin as last years? For every Kerdilies that was a point a game guys through 2 years, I can give you a Stepan and Craig Smith that were quite successful transitioning right into the NHL w/o even a cup of coffee in the A. Incidently, Kerdilies is 21 while Mersch is 23 so not shocking he would find his way toward the NHL sooner. Here's the other difference between the two, Mersch had pretty talented veteran rosters to stay for his junior and senior years.

What has killed UW is that the recruiting classes have lacked depth. The coaching staff from 2010-2015 totally wiffed with the secondary players. They went all in on the very top players, and when those didn't pan out the next level of players had already committed to the SCSU, providence, quinnipac type programs. That is why UWs recruiting classes have been so bimodal: a handful of elite players on one hand, and a bunch of AHA level recruits on the other. Hopefully, Strand and Bittner can change that in short order.

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXVI: Stop looking for the silver lining and ignoring the probl

Please spare me the how are you supposed to deal with guys leaving early like most of the guys that have left have been some huge shocker. Minnesota, North Dakota, BC and the rest have guys leave early too....only difference there is they have a couple guys lined up every year ready to come in

The primary difference I see is that during BC's great six year run to 3 titles, they had 2 players leave before completing their Junior year. In the same period, UND had 3 total leave before 3 years were done. Neither had a one and done. In a similar period, UW had 12-16 freshman (depending on which way you want to group it) leave before their Junior year. That may very well be all on Eaves, as I'm not saying he's not responsible. I'm simply saying having 2 or 3 additional strong Juniors per year is a huge difference, especially when you think of how many times UW has just seemed to be one or two guys short of being very good. And it certainly affects the pipeline. Planning 3 yrs out is a lot different than sort of maybe planning for one or two depending on what happens. Instead of stacking guys, they were often scrambling to fill spots and bring guys in early. Labate and Navin would be Seniors and Besse a Sophomore at a lot of those schools mentioned above as some examples. There are a number of others. (Although maybe that's how UW got Besse and/or Labate in the first place, I can't say.) This stuff doesn't exonerate Eaves, but I feel it's a bit more accurate then just saying "other places have done it" because the other places have had different circumstances.

Kerdilies put up a point a game from day one and somehow Eaves is shocked he didn't stay for his junior year? Seriously?....
Incidently, Kerdilies is 21 while Mersch is 23

In the case of Kerdiles, Baggot said Nic insisted to Eaves he would be back. Whether that's accurate, or whether Eaves should have bought it, I have no idea. I think Kerdiles age is a major factor in why he should have stayed. That and his D was very inconsistent. He certainly wasn't (and won't be) as good as Stepan or as old or mature as Smith who turned 22 in the fall of what would have been his junior year. It's true and a very fair point that he would have come back to an empty cupboard. I certainly can't see that he's better off for not having come back, just the same.

 

[srkbadger]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXVI: Stop looking for the silver lining and ignoring the probl

Please, show me any evidence from any source that shows Eaves as part of this proposal. There probably isn't any, but that's OK, you hate him so guilty by association is good enough.

See link: http://www.collegehockeynews.com/news/2015/11/24_big_ten_legislation_raises.php

"...done during the summer at the request of its six coaches.."

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXVI: Stop looking for the silver lining and ignoring the probl

Please, show me any evidence from any source that shows Eaves as part of this proposal. There probably isn't any, but that's OK, you hate him so guilty by association is good enough.

good grief are you intentionally not reading these articles or what? Eaves IS 1 of 6 coaches from the B10 wanna be football conference and ALL 6 want to see the age restriction implemented.

Is your last name Eaves by chance?

also re: hate. No, I don't hate Mikey, I think his time is way past him and he's become a cancer to this team by virtue of his negative reputation and his ****ty attitude. I want him and his staff gone yesterday so the team can start fresh with a great new coach and a refreshingly good outlook/attitude that comes with that.

Look, I don't really even need to justify my anti-mikey sentiment when you've got former players out there actively encouraging kids to play elsewhere, and if you need evidence to support that claim then re-read Chuck's posts or Baggot's write-ups

 

[UWisco]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXVI: Stop looking for the silver lining and ignoring the probl

Per Baggot, Rockwood and Tischke are not playing tomorrow.

 

[MadCityRich]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXVI: Stop looking for the silver lining and ignoring the probl

While there is certainly many differences in recruiting on the Men's vs Women's programs....I think what ****es off the masses is that we used to get the top recruits and consistently had Badgers representing teams on the World Junior stage. Our teams were filled with NHL draft choices and the seats were filled at the Kohl and the Great Dane.

I guess where I am going with this is under Coach Excuse we are becoming irrelevant to the next generation of player. These kids never experienced the rocking full buildings and national championships. What they see is an unsuccessful program with a head coach who has a tainted reputation in the hockey circles, playing in a half empty building.

This is what has become of the once proud program under Eaves.

EXACTLY my point. Thank you and good night. Apologists; Jesus ****ing Christ.

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXVI: Stop looking for the silver lining and ignoring the probl

Per Baggot, Rockwood and Tischke are not playing tomorrow.

Worse than that. Here's what Baggot has for lines:

Linhart-Wittchow, Schultz-Sexton, Davison-Bunz. Jurusik in goal.
Kunin-Malone-Besse, Freytag-Wagner-Johnson, Ford-Zirbel-Soleway, Cavallini-Ustaski-McGuire

No Rockwood, Tischke or Hughes.

Posick had said Rocky was practicing Monday... I thought Tischke was coming along some, too. Bummer.

I guess we'll see what Jake Bunz has learned in practice. At least Jed is back, but those lines are a scramble. I don't hate them, but Hughes is playing really well on both ends, and that's a big loss.

 

[XYZ]

Please, show me any evidence from any source that shows Eaves as part of this proposal. There probably isn't any, but that's OK, you hate him so guilty by association is good enough.

*blink*

It's almost like Sean T. Frazier created a USCHO account so he could amuse himself during UNI lunch hour.

UW Hockey: Every cloud has a silver lining, but odds are the lightning kills you before you find it.

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXVI: Stop looking for the silver lining and ignoring the probl

I obviously think the things in my previous post (unusual number of 1-2 year players) contributed to the problems outlined in Almington's post. You have time and can much more easily plan to replace a star after three with another carefully sought out star, either bringing him in then, or at worst, pushing out a player for a maximum of one year of juniors in the unlikely event said star returns for their senior year. It actually works very well. Preparing to replace in any of years 1, 2, or 3 though quickly becomes much more unmanageable especially when there are several. Add a couple late decommits and things snowball. In retrospect there are things that should have been done differently. Probably brought in more "ready to wear" players like Paddy Sexton. Should have abandoned the gentleman's agreement much sooner. Both things that go against Eaves nature I think, but should have been done. Some other stuff. The UW crystal ball was off the mark though and the pipeline still looked pretty good circa 2011... until it didn't.

Interesting tidbits on UW's WJ team players and draft picks. Around 1/3 of all the Badger's 44 reps played from 80-84. This is Eaves 2nd year (total and in a row) without a player on the WJ team. Sauer had 7 years without a rep, Badger Bob, one. There are 3 previous UW commits on the team. (Schmaltz, Dvorak, and Opilka) Plus the very odd circumstances that led to Will Butcher going to DU. Plus if you believe Luke Kunin, Caleb Jones was almost a Badger. Plus under a similar but different heading, so was Dante Fabbro. Depressing thoughts there.
Eaves has had more 1st and 2nd round draft picks play for him than Badger Bob and Jeff Sauer combined. Which isn't that interesting. However the case of Steve Clippingdale is. He played 4 games for Badger Bob in '74 as a freshman, then left to play for the Westminster Bruins for two years. THEN he was drafted in the second round. But we still count him.

The Badgers currently have the same or more NHL draft picks than the last 3 NCAA Champions. But far less than MN, MI, and BC. I wonder how many we'll see in the future regardless of coach, given the much changed landscape of college hockey?

Tough road to hoe tonight, down a couple of key guys on the road. Just have to step up. Go Red.

 

[gwhinwi]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXVI: Stop looking for the silver lining and ignoring the probl

Good to know Gwoz is still coaching. Still would have liked to see him get a shot coaching here, even at 62.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/11/s...l-coach.html?smid=tw-nytsports&smtyp=cur&_r=0

 

[KaMiGo]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXVI: Stop looking for the silver lining and ignoring the probl

See link: http://www.collegehockeynews.com/news/2015/11/24_big_ten_legislation_raises.php

"...done during the summer at the request of its six coaches.."

good grief are you intentionally not reading these articles or what? Eaves IS 1 of 6 coaches from the B10 wanna be football conference and ALL 6 want to see the age restriction implemented.

Thanks guys, I had missed the one point in the article. My memory was that it was coming from the Big Ten and that Don was the only one mentioned by name. I missed the fact that they also identified as "six coaches".

I find the difference in the responses interesting. One person says "here is the information you had asked for" and another person doesn't give the specific link or information but goes off on a rant. Make of that what you will.

 

[WiscTJK]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey XXXVI: Stop looking for the silver lining and ignoring the probl

I obviously think the things in my previous post (unusual number of 1-2 year players) contributed to the problems outlined in Almington's post. You have time and can much more easily plan to replace a star after three with another carefully sought out star, either bringing him in then, or at worst, pushing out a player for a maximum of one year of juniors in the unlikely event said star returns for their senior year. It actually works very well. Preparing to replace in any of years 1, 2, or 3 though quickly becomes much more unmanageable especially when there are several. Add a couple late decommits and things snowball. In retrospect there are things that should have been done differently. Probably brought in more "ready to wear" players like Paddy Sexton. Should have abandoned the gentleman's agreement much sooner. Both things that go against Eaves nature I think, but should have been done. Some other stuff. The UW crystal ball was off the mark though and the pipeline still looked pretty good circa 2011... until it didn't.

Interesting tidbits on UW's WJ team players and draft picks. Around 1/3 of all the Badger's 44 reps played from 80-84. This is Eaves 2nd year (total and in a row) without a player on the WJ team. Sauer had 7 years without a rep, Badger Bob, one. There are 3 previous UW commits on the team. (Schmaltz, Dvorak, and Opilka) Plus the very odd circumstances that led to Will Butcher going to DU. Plus if you believe Luke Kunin, Caleb Jones was almost a Badger. Plus under a similar but different heading, so was Dante Fabbro. Depressing thoughts there.
Eaves has had more 1st and 2nd round draft picks play for him than Badger Bob and Jeff Sauer combined. Which isn't that interesting. However the case of Steve Clippingdale is. He played 4 games for Badger Bob in '74 as a freshman, then left to play for the Westminster Bruins for two years. THEN he was drafted in the second round. But we still count him.

The Badgers currently have the same or more NHL draft picks than the last 3 NCAA Champions. But far less than MN, MI, and BC. I wonder how many we'll see in the future regardless of coach, given the much changed landscape of college hockey?

Tough road to hoe tonight, down a couple of key guys on the road. Just have to step up. Go Red.

We are not an NHL farm club. Eaves has one job and that is win games and as a result of that, national championships. NHL Draft picks are nice to have, but it seems to me we are missing the more mature guys that are not drafted / under the radar guys that don't bolt after a year or even come, like Almington said.