Chuck Schwartz
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For the sake of clarity, that was 2 years ago.
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Wisconsin Hockey: Episode XXXI: A New Hope
- Thread starter Wisko McBadgerton
- Start date
- Status
For the sake of clarity, that was 2 years ago.
LordofBrewtown
Registered User
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Episode XXXI: A New Hope
Reading other threads I found something that might support this. Omaha has 10 freshmen & 7 sophomores on their roster; and they are not 1-10-1. That's pretty ****ing. I don't think it's unreasonable for badger fans to expect our program to be better than Omaha's; which in theory are both in down/rebuilding years.
Reading other threads I found something that might support this. Omaha has 10 freshmen & 7 sophomores on their roster; and they are not 1-10-1. That's pretty ****ing. I don't think it's unreasonable for badger fans to expect our program to be better than Omaha's; which in theory are both in down/rebuilding years.
Wisko McBadgerton
Teaching you how to Bucky.
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Episode XXXI: A New Hope
I appreciate the effort you put into this list, and the fact that you have posted more on this day than you have at any one time in the last two years. I hope that continues a bit more, as you always bring something good to the discussion.
To begin with, all I said was Kerdiles marked the 5th straight year of Soph. departures. Not sure who you're getting at that thought it was "shocking"?
My apologies, but I didn't "cherry pick" Minnesota guys on purpose, it was simply convenient list as I was short on time, and also relevant to Hammy's point that MN has had players stay longer. As WI is compared to MN often around here (as though they're in exactly the same boat ) I felt it relevant to the general discussion as well. Without going through the history of every single player on this list and speculating about each one, I can't say exactly whether your statement that "For every 1st/2nd round forward that sees a third year of college, I bet there are 5 or 6 if not more that leave." is true or not with all the specific caveats you add to it. As a standalone general statement, it's not true. A little less than half (46%) of the 1st and 2nd round forwards on this list stayed.
Incidentally, Sachetti put up 63 in 43gp in England's pro Elite league and Pat White has played 4 years in the European Pro leagues (currently in Slovakia) since graduating. Hoeffel is in his 5th AHL year. I'm surprised Dubby didn't jump in to point that all out, but they have in fact played "an ounce" of pro hockey. And how about compare these guys to Jason Clark and Brendan Woods and tell me those two should have left early based solely on career moves?
On Kerdiles, (which I certainly didn't suggest was at all shocking) I hate to quote Lucia, but this is what he said recently on early departures when asked, "I really have little to do with it, but my advice has been that they should stay unless they are NHL ready." Personally I agree with the sentiment. And the only people who have a say in Kerdiles being in the show have said he's not ready. He's doing ok, he's 6g-11a for 17 (-3) in 27gp, at the moment. That's not getting him very far anytime soon though, barring a big rash of injuries. Besides the fact that he's still only 20. Your points are all well taken, but it's not absolutely crazy to suggest there was possibly some benefit to him in staying however unlikely history suggests that might be.
I appreciate the effort you put into this list, and the fact that you have posted more on this day than you have at any one time in the last two years. I hope that continues a bit more, as you always bring something good to the discussion.
To begin with, all I said was Kerdiles marked the 5th straight year of Soph. departures. Not sure who you're getting at that thought it was "shocking"?
My apologies, but I didn't "cherry pick" Minnesota guys on purpose, it was simply convenient list as I was short on time, and also relevant to Hammy's point that MN has had players stay longer. As WI is compared to MN often around here (as though they're in exactly the same boat ) I felt it relevant to the general discussion as well. Without going through the history of every single player on this list and speculating about each one, I can't say exactly whether your statement that "For every 1st/2nd round forward that sees a third year of college, I bet there are 5 or 6 if not more that leave." is true or not with all the specific caveats you add to it. As a standalone general statement, it's not true. A little less than half (46%) of the 1st and 2nd round forwards on this list stayed.
Incidentally, Sachetti put up 63 in 43gp in England's pro Elite league and Pat White has played 4 years in the European Pro leagues (currently in Slovakia) since graduating. Hoeffel is in his 5th AHL year. I'm surprised Dubby didn't jump in to point that all out, but they have in fact played "an ounce" of pro hockey. And how about compare these guys to Jason Clark and Brendan Woods and tell me those two should have left early based solely on career moves?
On Kerdiles, (which I certainly didn't suggest was at all shocking) I hate to quote Lucia, but this is what he said recently on early departures when asked, "I really have little to do with it, but my advice has been that they should stay unless they are NHL ready." Personally I agree with the sentiment. And the only people who have a say in Kerdiles being in the show have said he's not ready. He's doing ok, he's 6g-11a for 17 (-3) in 27gp, at the moment. That's not getting him very far anytime soon though, barring a big rash of injuries. Besides the fact that he's still only 20. Your points are all well taken, but it's not absolutely crazy to suggest there was possibly some benefit to him in staying however unlikely history suggests that might be.
LordofBrewtown
Registered User
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Episode XXXI: A New Hope
I've thought about that too. Agree that Eaves is probably not doing this on purpose. However, assuming that it is the strategy - I'm not sure that the strategy itself isn't OK, it's just the execution of it that's failed. Think about that first 4 year cycle - that would be the aim: 1st yr, under .500 miss ncaa's; yr 2 bubble team, maybe barely make it in; yr 3 in ncaa's comfortably, and yr 4 national title contender. I think we'd all be happy with an NCAA championship every 4 years, and making the tournament 5-6 out of 8 years.
I would even cut Eaves some slack for going out in the first round last year, as in a 1 game playoff, anything can happen. The problem is, we are not doing well enough in those other years. Two years ago, we do not make the tournament without winning the conference tournament, and missed out three years ago also.
No matter how you look at it, Eaves is underperforming. I hate calling for anyone to be fired. Honestly, if we could have just approached .500 this year, it would have given me hope for a 4 year cycle as described above. Instead, this start is a debacle, and logically it follows that this 4 yr cycle will be a little worse than the last (meaning maybe only barely getting a bid in year 4).
I think it's time for Eaves to go.
I've thought about that too. Agree that Eaves is probably not doing this on purpose. However, assuming that it is the strategy - I'm not sure that the strategy itself isn't OK, it's just the execution of it that's failed. Think about that first 4 year cycle - that would be the aim: 1st yr, under .500 miss ncaa's; yr 2 bubble team, maybe barely make it in; yr 3 in ncaa's comfortably, and yr 4 national title contender. I think we'd all be happy with an NCAA championship every 4 years, and making the tournament 5-6 out of 8 years.
I would even cut Eaves some slack for going out in the first round last year, as in a 1 game playoff, anything can happen. The problem is, we are not doing well enough in those other years. Two years ago, we do not make the tournament without winning the conference tournament, and missed out three years ago also.
No matter how you look at it, Eaves is underperforming. I hate calling for anyone to be fired. Honestly, if we could have just approached .500 this year, it would have given me hope for a 4 year cycle as described above. Instead, this start is a debacle, and logically it follows that this 4 yr cycle will be a little worse than the last (meaning maybe only barely getting a bid in year 4).
I think it's time for Eaves to go.
Wisko McBadgerton
Teaching you how to Bucky.
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Episode XXXI: A New Hope
The only thing I'd say about this is that with having 5 top end talents at a position in your area, you can miss on 4 of them and still get a great kid. If you have one Will Butcher and you miss, you're out of luck. In Butcher's case he wasn't opposed to playing at UW and probably would have if not for Miller. He's not sitting a year though to change back.
The only thing I'd say about this is that with having 5 top end talents at a position in your area, you can miss on 4 of them and still get a great kid. If you have one Will Butcher and you miss, you're out of luck. In Butcher's case he wasn't opposed to playing at UW and probably would have if not for Miller. He's not sitting a year though to change back.
Wisko McBadgerton
Teaching you how to Bucky.
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Episode XXXI: A New Hope
Great post but unfortunately it's entirely wrong. Thurber came in and left with Stepan. He sat a year and was a senior at NMU in 12-13.
Great post but unfortunately it's entirely wrong. Thurber came in and left with Stepan. He sat a year and was a senior at NMU in 12-13.
Wisko McBadgerton
Teaching you how to Bucky.
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Episode XXXI: A New Hope
This is a good point. Their top line with Soph's Ortega(18pts.) and Guentzel (16 pts.) are tearing it up playing with Sr. Dominic Zumbo (34 and 35 pts. the last two years) Guentzel is arguably one of the best soph's in the country, but they are definitely playing a number of underclassmen. Fair enough to question why UW doesn't have a line like that here.
On paper, perhaps LaBate could be centering Besse and Zulinick instead of 17 year old Cameron Hughes carrying a big load. But Hughes has impressed with his skills and attitude...
Thing is, Labate was supposed to be a flight risk last year. Anybody care to comment on how far his has stock fallen with only 1 goal so far? There's gotta be some expectation he could produce something more for Bucky. He, probably more than anybody, was supposed to be a guy to make something happen offensively and he's been mostly a disaster thus far, IMO. Why?
This is a good point. Their top line with Soph's Ortega(18pts.) and Guentzel (16 pts.) are tearing it up playing with Sr. Dominic Zumbo (34 and 35 pts. the last two years) Guentzel is arguably one of the best soph's in the country, but they are definitely playing a number of underclassmen. Fair enough to question why UW doesn't have a line like that here.
On paper, perhaps LaBate could be centering Besse and Zulinick instead of 17 year old Cameron Hughes carrying a big load. But Hughes has impressed with his skills and attitude...
Thing is, Labate was supposed to be a flight risk last year. Anybody care to comment on how far his has stock fallen with only 1 goal so far? There's gotta be some expectation he could produce something more for Bucky. He, probably more than anybody, was supposed to be a guy to make something happen offensively and he's been mostly a disaster thus far, IMO. Why?
badgerhawk
Tools in the thread!
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Episode XXXI: A New Hope
You'll have to excuse the poor graph, but here is a list of some teams, freshman production this year. Hopefully you can decipher it and make of it what you will. Sorted from lowest to highest points per game.
Team , # of freshman, games played, goals, assists, points, PPG
Michigan St. 3 39 0 6 6 0.15
Northeastern 4 52 3 7 10 0.19
Colorado College 5 43 4 5 9 0.21
Connecticut 9 109 10 15 25 0.22
Maine 6 90 7 16 23 0.25
Minnesota 5 38 2 8 10 0.26
Wisconsin 9 86 5 17 23 0.26
Providence 4 36 3 7 10 0.27
Western Mich. 7 83 10 13 23 0.27
Miami 3 46 4 9 13 0.28
Notre Dame 9 122 11 26 37 0.3
Ohio St 7 73 5 18 23 0.31
Massachusetts 8 92 13 16 29 0.31
New Hampshire 9 94 9 22 31 0.33
St. Cloud St. 5 67 9 14 23 0.34
Minnesota Duluth 5 56 7 13 20 0.35
Vermont 7 74 13 14 27 0.36
Penn st 3 40 5 10 15 0.37
Merrimack 9 118 21 23 44 0.37
Nebraska-O 10 124 18 31 49 0.39
North Dakota 5 78 12 21 33 0.42
Umass L. 9 89 18 23 41 0.46
Boston U. 9 129 18 43 61 0.47
Boston C. 2 34 4 12 16 0.47
Michigan 7 71 10 33 43 0.6
Denver 3 33 6 16 22 0.66
You'll have to excuse the poor graph, but here is a list of some teams, freshman production this year. Hopefully you can decipher it and make of it what you will. Sorted from lowest to highest points per game.
Team , # of freshman, games played, goals, assists, points, PPG
Michigan St. 3 39 0 6 6 0.15
Northeastern 4 52 3 7 10 0.19
Colorado College 5 43 4 5 9 0.21
Connecticut 9 109 10 15 25 0.22
Maine 6 90 7 16 23 0.25
Minnesota 5 38 2 8 10 0.26
Wisconsin 9 86 5 17 23 0.26
Providence 4 36 3 7 10 0.27
Western Mich. 7 83 10 13 23 0.27
Miami 3 46 4 9 13 0.28
Notre Dame 9 122 11 26 37 0.3
Ohio St 7 73 5 18 23 0.31
Massachusetts 8 92 13 16 29 0.31
New Hampshire 9 94 9 22 31 0.33
St. Cloud St. 5 67 9 14 23 0.34
Minnesota Duluth 5 56 7 13 20 0.35
Vermont 7 74 13 14 27 0.36
Penn st 3 40 5 10 15 0.37
Merrimack 9 118 21 23 44 0.37
Nebraska-O 10 124 18 31 49 0.39
North Dakota 5 78 12 21 33 0.42
Umass L. 9 89 18 23 41 0.46
Boston U. 9 129 18 43 61 0.47
Boston C. 2 34 4 12 16 0.47
Michigan 7 71 10 33 43 0.6
Denver 3 33 6 16 22 0.66
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Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Episode XXXI: A New Hope
On the surface, having a large quantity of frosh with massive playing time/pp roles available might lead you to think UW's frosh are not that good given their opportunity. On the other hand, having little or no upper class help to complement (or simply take the pressure off them) may explain why they are one of the worst scoring teams in the country. If you are a frosh and are playing on the "top line", you are going to go against one of the other teams top d pairings. If you are on the top PP unit, again you will face the other teams top dmen and top defensive forwards.
On the surface, having a large quantity of frosh with massive playing time/pp roles available might lead you to think UW's frosh are not that good given their opportunity. On the other hand, having little or no upper class help to complement (or simply take the pressure off them) may explain why they are one of the worst scoring teams in the country. If you are a frosh and are playing on the "top line", you are going to go against one of the other teams top d pairings. If you are on the top PP unit, again you will face the other teams top dmen and top defensive forwards.
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Episode XXXI: A New Hope
According to the final press notes from the 2013-14 season, "Wisconsin saw its attendance average climb 957 fans per game from last season’s
average to 10,478 for the 2013–14 season."
They are averaging 10,228 per game as of the U-18 game on Friday night.
Having said that, that is no where near the attendance in the building. If there were 9,200 people at the Friday night Ferris State game, I'll walk back up to Madison and apologize to each of you individually.
According to the final press notes from the 2013-14 season, "Wisconsin saw its attendance average climb 957 fans per game from last season’s
average to 10,478 for the 2013–14 season."
They are averaging 10,228 per game as of the U-18 game on Friday night.
Having said that, that is no where near the attendance in the building. If there were 9,200 people at the Friday night Ferris State game, I'll walk back up to Madison and apologize to each of you individually.
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XYZ
Smoking in the selection room.
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Episode XXXI: A New Hope
That was absolutely not what I was suggesting. My point was very straightforward; if you chose to ignore it that is not my problem. But since I'm in a good mood I'll address your misguided assessment of my point: While I'm not inclined to use the word "embarrassing," a program like Wisconsin losing to Penn State two nights in a row isn't good. But it isn't necessarily terrible considering the nature of hockey. Losses can come in all sorts of unexpected and unfortunate ways.
However, a program like Wisconsin getting skated up and down the ice for 109 minutes by a second-year NCAA program is simply inexcusable. Whether that program is named Penn St., Minnesota Mankato State Cornfield Tech, St. Norbert or Alaska-North Pole doesn't really matter.
Now that all that has been settled, you're free to address my original point. Or, speaking of embarrassing, you could go back to your half-assed troll thread.
Up to you.
That was absolutely not what I was suggesting. My point was very straightforward; if you chose to ignore it that is not my problem. But since I'm in a good mood I'll address your misguided assessment of my point: While I'm not inclined to use the word "embarrassing," a program like Wisconsin losing to Penn State two nights in a row isn't good. But it isn't necessarily terrible considering the nature of hockey. Losses can come in all sorts of unexpected and unfortunate ways.
However, a program like Wisconsin getting skated up and down the ice for 109 minutes by a second-year NCAA program is simply inexcusable. Whether that program is named Penn St., Minnesota Mankato State Cornfield Tech, St. Norbert or Alaska-North Pole doesn't really matter.
Now that all that has been settled, you're free to address my original point. Or, speaking of embarrassing, you could go back to your half-assed troll thread.
Up to you.
Wisko McBadgerton
Teaching you how to Bucky.
Wisko McBadgerton
Teaching you how to Bucky.
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Episode XXXI: A New Hope
Thanks to badgerhawk for posting those stats. I looked up goals scored by each of those teams as it seemed relevant to me to compare ppg by fr. to what kind of scoring each team was doing overall in order to gauge fr. contributions. Did a little back of the envelope math and came up with this about a hypothetical "average" team:
It's comprised of a little less then one third freshman. (i.e. if you had 20 skaters, around 6-7 would be freshman.)
A team with 18 skaters (6 freshman) reaching 18 goals could be said to be averaging 1g /skater.
But based on badgerhawk's sample, freshman average a little under half as much as goal contributors. So the hypothetical team with 18 goals could only expect the 6 freshman to have had 3 goals, and the other 12 players totals equaling 15 goals.
If that makes sense.
Thanks to badgerhawk for posting those stats. I looked up goals scored by each of those teams as it seemed relevant to me to compare ppg by fr. to what kind of scoring each team was doing overall in order to gauge fr. contributions. Did a little back of the envelope math and came up with this about a hypothetical "average" team:
It's comprised of a little less then one third freshman. (i.e. if you had 20 skaters, around 6-7 would be freshman.)
A team with 18 skaters (6 freshman) reaching 18 goals could be said to be averaging 1g /skater.
But based on badgerhawk's sample, freshman average a little under half as much as goal contributors. So the hypothetical team with 18 goals could only expect the 6 freshman to have had 3 goals, and the other 12 players totals equaling 15 goals.
If that makes sense.
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MadCityRich
20 Years and Counting
Wisko McBadgerton
Teaching you how to Bucky.
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Episode XXXI: A New Hope
If Badger freshman score 82.6% as much as gofer freshman, the question then is how many points in total for Badgers vs. Rodents?
Also I'd be interested in seeing a chart. What else have we got to do for the next few weeks?
If Badger freshman score 82.6% as much as gofer freshman, the question then is how many points in total for Badgers vs. Rodents?
Also I'd be interested in seeing a chart. What else have we got to do for the next few weeks?
Wisko McBadgerton
Teaching you how to Bucky.
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Episode XXXI: A New Hope
This certainly makes sense to me.
Just by reading some posts here and questioning my own ideas (and having them questioned) about how things work I've definitely learned a few things in the last week or two. So thanks guys. A number of things I hadn't even considered... like this on how match-ups might play into the equation of how less experienced teams might produce.
This certainly makes sense to me.
Just by reading some posts here and questioning my own ideas (and having them questioned) about how things work I've definitely learned a few things in the last week or two. So thanks guys. A number of things I hadn't even considered... like this on how match-ups might play into the equation of how less experienced teams might produce.
G
Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Episode XXXI: A New Hope
1-10-1
Chart that.
1-10-1
Chart that.
Wisko McBadgerton
Teaching you how to Bucky.
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Episode XXXI: A New Hope
<a href="http://imgur.com/ydOgJhV"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/ydOgJhV.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>
From what I can tell, the Badgers seem to have had an upswing right around the time they played Ferris State.
<a href="http://imgur.com/ydOgJhV"><img src="http://i.imgur.com/ydOgJhV.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>
From what I can tell, the Badgers seem to have had an upswing right around the time they played Ferris State.
G
Gurtholfin
Guest
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