Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

[d3follower]

Re: Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

I was thinking about the fact there were virtually no public schools on that list outside of the major universities. Like UW and UMTC....and any of those were way down the list...seems a little biased toward the people that can pay an arm and leg to go to the school in the first place. UW should definitely been higher.

Yes - the methodology is biased against public schools for many reasons. Here's how Forbes describes its methodology:

Next they measure how satisfied students are with their college experience, examining freshman-to-sophomore retention rates (5%) and student evaluations of classes on the websites RateMyProfessors.com (17.5%) and MyPlan.com (5%). They look at how much debt students rack up over their college careers, considering the four-year debt load for a typical student borrower (12.5%), and the overall student loan default rate (5%). They evaluate how many students actually finish their degrees in four years, considering both the actual graduation rate (8.75%) and the gap between the average rate and a predicted rate, based on characteristics of the school (8.75%).

The factors that I have highlighted all pertain to affordability questions. Public school students are often in and out of school for financial reasons (instead of the uninterrupted 4-year process) so public schools are more likely to get lower ratings on the freshmen retention rate (5% of the Forbes score) and the 2 ratings that have to do with how quickly students graduate (a total of 17.5% of the rating is based on that question). Then we add factors like student debt load (12.5% of the score) and the default rate (5%). So 40% of the score is based on questions that have to do directly or indirectly with relative institutional wealth and relative student wealth.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

Yes - the methodology is biased against public schools for many reasons. Here's how Forbes describes its methodology:

The factors that I have highlighted all pertain to affordability questions. Public school students are often in and out of school for financial reasons (instead of the uninterrupted 4-year process) so public schools are more likely to get lower ratings on the freshmen retention rate (5% of the Forbes score) and the 2 ratings that have to do with how quickly students graduate (a total of 17.5% of the rating is based on that question). Then we add factors like student debt load (12.5% of the score) and the default rate (5%). So 40% of the score is based on questions that have to do directly or indirectly with relative institutional wealth and relative student wealth.

There is probably even more bias in the rankings in favour of those with money and private schools. Considering the impact of ratings from payscale.com @ 30%, you would also think that logically those from more privileged backgrounds might have a leg up on their starting salaries too....given those working in family businesses and/or getting their first jobs as a result of connections....and seeking those high-paying majors their parents may have more likely studied too.

 

[Plugger]

Re: Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

There is probably even more bias in the rankings in favour of those with money and private schools. Considering the impact of ratings from payscale.com @ 30%, you would also think that logically those from more privileged backgrounds might have a leg up on their starting salaries too....given those working in family businesses and/or getting their first jobs as a result of connections....and seeking those high-paying majors their parents may have more likely studied too.

You are assuming everyone is full pay and come from afluent families at these private schools, but you would be amazed at the amount of grant money given out by many of the private institutions to families that do not "have a leg up". Many of these institutions have raised money so that families that may not otherwise be able to attend a private school are given an opportunity to do so.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

You are assuming everyone is full pay and come from afluent families at these private schools, but you would be amazed at the amount of grant money given out by many of the private institutions to families that do not "have a leg up". Many of these institutions have raised money so that families that may not otherwise be able to attend a private school are given an opportunity to do so.

Believe me, I actually really do realize that. However, the percentage that are full pay should invariably still have quite an effect in skewing the numbers. The fact is that financially privileged offspring still gravitate disproportionately to financially privileged schools (and vice versa), regardless of the potential to do otherwise.

 

[Goalie Dad]

Re: Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

One thing we need to remember, is the curriculum at the undergrad level in most universities across North America is basicly the same. So a student at #65 is using the same text books as a student at #365. The high acheivers are going to succeed no matter which university. The top tier colleges have an advantage in that, the ' best and brightest' from around the world want an Ivy League education. So they have become colleges of high acheivers.


This makes it difficult for the players who go to these universities. It's great to get into Princeton, but how many can major in subjects that Princeton is famous for, such as Math, Physics or Economics. (I would find it a little stressful in class full of geeks with 500 IQ's. I was always more comfortable when there was someone in the class dumber than me. LOL). So heres 2 questions.

1) What's the difference in a history degree from say Yale or Ohio St.

2) On graduation day (when hockey is over over for most girls). Is the girl who graduates from a D3 school with an engineering, business or science degree, better off then either girl from question #1

 

[spike]

Re: Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

Believe me, I actually really do realize that. However, the percentage that are full pay should invariably still have quite an effect in skewing the numbers. The fact is that financially privileged offspring still gravitate disproportionately to financially privileged schools (and vice versa), regardless of the potential to do otherwise.

I think Trillium and Plugger are both correct. At the end of the day, talented students are attracted to schools where they can learn from great faculty, compete directly against other highly talented students, and derive a great benefit from the networking that comes with having attended those types of institutions. No guarantee of better jobs, but most certainly a leg up in the resume department. When a Williams kid walks into Goldman Sachs for an interview, there's a pretty good chance someone at that firm is a Williams grad and has taken notice. And, I also think that the Williams degree carries weight regardless of whether that student was full pay or full grant.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

2) On graduation day (when hockey is over over for most girls). Is the girl who graduates from a D3 school with an engineering, business or science degree, better off then either girl from question #1

That really all depends on the WHAT IT IS WORTH to the person graduating, and what they intend to do with the stuff they learned at school.

Some students graduate magna cum lauda and cannot operate in the real world. Others are lousy in the class room, but are great at applying skills in real life.

 

[spike]

Re: Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

One thing we need to remember, is the curriculum at the undergrad level in most universities across North America is basicly the same. So a student at #65 is using the same text books as a student at #365. The high acheivers are going to succeed no matter which university. The top tier colleges have an advantage in that, the ' best and brightest' from around the world want an Ivy League education. So they have become colleges of high acheivers.


This makes it difficult for the players who go to these universities. It's great to get into Princeton, but how many can major in subjects that Princeton is famous for, such as Math, Physics or Economics. (I would find it a little stressful in class full of geeks with 500 IQ's. I was always more comfortable when there was someone in the class dumber than me. LOL). So heres 2 questions.

1) What's the difference in a history degree from say Yale or Ohio St.

2) On graduation day (when hockey is over over for most girls). Is the girl who graduates from a D3 school with an engineering, business or science degree, better off then either girl from question #1

I don't see any way to compare a kid with an engineering degree with another kid majoring in history. You are comparing apples and oranges.

as to comparing the history degree from Yale and Ohio State, let me say what I as an employer would think about: Yale= four years competing with classmates who were all top 10% of their high school class. Ohio State= four years competing with a very broad cross section including students who were in the 30-40-50th percentile of their high school class. If the Yalee had a GPA of 3.5 I would be impressed. I might not notice the Buckeye unless his/her GPA was 3.9 or above. This is all generalization, the Buckeye could turn out to be Warren Buffet!

We all seem to agree that hockey skills are best developed when competing against the best possible competition. School is really no different. IMHO.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

I don't see any way to compare a kid with an engineering degree with another kid majoring in history. You are comparing apples and oranges.

as to comparing the history degree from Yale and Ohio State, let me say what I as an employer would think about: Yale= four years competing with classmates who were all top 10% of their high school class. Ohio State= four years competing with a very broad cross section including students who were in the 30-40-50th percentile of their high school class. If the Yalee had a GPA of 3.5 I would be impressed. I might not notice the Buckeye unless his/her GPA was 3.9 or above. This is all generalization, the Buckeye could turn out to be Warren Buffet!

We all seem to agree that hockey skills are best developed when competing against the best possible competition. School is really no different. IMHO.

I look at school as an individual sport, so to speak.

 

[gojackets]

Re: Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

That really all depends on the WHAT IT IS WORTH to the person graduating, and what they intend to do with the stuff they learned at school.

Some students graduate magna cum lauda and cannot operate in the real world. Others are lousy in the class room, but are great at applying skills in real life.

As a teacher it would be stupid for me to go to an expensive private school. I have a good job and would be making the exact same amount of money whether I went to Harvard or UW-Superior. I know that Harvard probably doesn't put out too many high school teachers but colleges like Middlebury, Gustavus, Amherst probably do have those types of programs for a higher price. It might make a small difference in getting the job...but I don't think it would be worthwhile to go that in debt.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

As a teacher it would be stupid for me to go to an expensive private school. I have a good job and would be making the exact same amount of money whether I went to Harvard or UW-Superior. I know that Harvard probably doesn't put out too many high school teachers but colleges like Middlebury, Gustavus, Amherst probably do have those types of programs for a higher price. It might make a small difference in getting the job...but I don't think it would be worthwhile to go that in debt.

Remember, most people do not pay "retail" at private colleges. In fact, at a place like Amherst, if the family income is below a certain level FA covers everything. You can't always say that about all publics...

And school makes a huge difference in employment opportunities. Not just any school, but particularly at the best schools. And these days, a lot of teaching graduates are finding out that certain districts have really cut back in hiring.

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

I look at school as an individual sport, so to speak.

My vote for "Line of the Year" under twleve words with a smiley!

 

[Plugger]

Re: Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

Williams ranks first and Amherst is third....Pretty impressive.

http://shine.yahoo.com/event/backtoschool/americas-best-colleges-2293942/

....and congrats again to Williams as they are listed in the US News & World Report magazine as the top National Liberal Arts College, followed by Amherst #2, Middlebury #4, and Bowdoin #6.

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/liberal-arts-rankings

 

[goaliedad35]

Re: Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

National Universities National Ranking US News and World Report
#1,2,3 Harvard, Princeton, Yale

 

[Trillium]

Re: Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

I don't see any way to compare a kid with an engineering degree with another kid majoring in history. You are comparing apples and oranges.

as to comparing the history degree from Yale and Ohio State, let me say what I as an employer would think about: Yale= four years competing with classmates who were all top 10% of their high school class. Ohio State= four years competing with a very broad cross section including students who were in the 30-40-50th percentile of their high school class. If the Yalee had a GPA of 3.5 I would be impressed. I might not notice the Buckeye unless his/her GPA was 3.9 or above. This is all generalization, the Buckeye could turn out to be Warren Buffet!

We all seem to agree that hockey skills are best developed when competing against the best possible competition. School is really no different. IMHO.

This!!!!!!
BEST. QUOTE. EVER.

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

I don't see any way to compare a kid with an engineering degree with another kid majoring in history. You are comparing apples and oranges.

as to comparing the history degree from Yale and Ohio State, let me say what I as an employer would think about: Yale= four years competing with classmates who were all top 10% of their high school class. Ohio State= four years competing with a very broad cross section including students who were in the 30-40-50th percentile of their high school class. If the Yalee had a GPA of 3.5 I would be impressed. I might not notice the Buckeye unless his/her GPA was 3.9 or above. This is all generalization, the Buckeye could turn out to be Warren Buffet!

We all seem to agree that hockey skills are best developed when competing against the best possible competition. School is really no different. IMHO.

Under the same scenario and I was the employer.... if either the kid from Yale or the kid from Ohio State happened to be the Captain on the hockey team...I'd take them.

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

Found this in the Wall Street Journal this a.m. and thought it might be of interest to some...and absolutely alarming to most!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703824304575435831555726858.html?mod=WSJ_WSJ_US_News_3

 

[Trillium]

Re: Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

Found this in the Wall Street Journal this a.m. and thought it might be of interest to some...and absolutely alarming to most!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703824304575435831555726858.html?mod=WSJ_WSJ_US_News_3

Very interesting. Thanks.

Note to NJC....Canada #1 in world in % of population with university education; US only #12, 15% behind. But really, you're the genius we all want to emulate.

 

[D2D]

Re: Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

But really, you're the genius we all want to emulate.

By attending your universities!

 

[gojackets]

Re: Williams College named Forbes America's Top College

Found this in the Wall Street Journal this a.m. and thought it might be of interest to some...and absolutely alarming to most!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703824304575435831555726858.html?mod=WSJ_WSJ_US_News_3

As a hs science teacher I've tried pushing hard,keeping the pace up, tried to teach at a higher level but the students aren't able to do it. I've been amazed, especially since I moved to AZ(49th in the nation in education), what the kids don't know by the time they get to high school. Simple things like a basic knowledge of the metric system, scientific method...things of that nature...and they just don't know it.