Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

[joecct]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

We have a winner - this (complete adaptation of DIII policies) is IMO, the ONLY way the DII schools can compete on a "fair enough" field, until then, they need to "sleep in the bed they make", even if sadly, it means an end (or trivialization) of the DII hockey programs.

Wouldn't reducing D-II scholly's to 0 enable the D-III's to compete on a level playing field???

BTW, D-II men can offer 13.5 schollys, while the D-II women can offer 18.0. Hmmmmmm......

 

[norm1909]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Wouldn't reducing D-II scholly's to 0 enable the D-III's to compete on a level playing field???

BTW, D-II men can offer 13.5 schollys, while the D-II women can offer 18.0. Hmmmmmm......

Exactly, and I think that is what I said (or what NUProf said and I agreeded with)

 

[jerrynu26]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Wouldn't reducing D-II scholly's to 0 enable the D-III's to compete on a level playing field???

BTW, D-II men can offer 13.5 schollys, while the D-II women can offer 18.0. Hmmmmmm......

But the athletes playing hockey, even with no scholorships, still have complete access to an athletic department that does NOT need to follow DIII rules (and intents). That athletic department has an advantage over DIII structured ones. That gives the athlete a potential advantage that a DIII school cannot match.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Wouldn't reducing D-II scholly's to 0 enable the D-III's to compete on a level playing field???

Yes!

So, what is everyone arguing about?

 

[joeyc3402]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

But the athletes playing hockey, even with no scholorships, still have complete access to an athletic department that does NOT need to follow DIII rules (and intents). That athletic department has an advantage over DIII structured ones. That gives the athlete a potential advantage that a DIII school cannot match.

OK, maybe because I'm don't know much about these nuances, I'll bite.

What can D-II programs do (facilities-wise and department structure-wise) that D-III programs can't, money being equal?

 

[norm1909]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

OK, maybe because I'm don't know much about these nuances, I'll bite.

What can D-II programs do (facilities-wise and department structure-wise) that D-III programs can't, money being equal?

My 2 cents:

As the DII schools have made a stronger commitment to their programs - particularly in adding scholarships and the additional support staff to support the "Eligibility Center" and other DII nuances, they inherently should have more resources – including the all important Administrative Support. Also, as I alluded to in my previous post, presumably, this increased importance of the athletics in supporting the school’s mission, makes them more attractive to potential student athletes (i.e. in addition to the additional prestige, media coverage, etc there also may be a “I’ve made the extra commitment to athletics through training and practice to get where I am, I want a school that has also made an extra commitment to their athletic programs”).

That said I do not believe that schools willing to restrict their hockey programs to the rules and policies of DIII, will have a materially significant advantage over their DIII teams. IMO, any advantage is likely to be no greater than and likely less than, the advantage that DIII private schools have over their public school counterparts. I also, as previously noted do not see that the existing DII programs that compete with DIII schools have shown any significant dominance.

 

[joecct]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Yes!

So, what is everyone arguing about?

Nobody's arguing. We're discussing on how to make an unwokable situation workable.

Where I think we've gotten agreement:
(a) Modify ByLaw 18 to sanction a National Collegiate Championship for D-II/III men.
(b) Modify D-II Bylaw 15 to reduce scholarship limits for men's ice hockey to 0.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Nobody's arguing. We're discussing on how to make an unwokable situation workable.

Where I think we've gotten agreement:
(a) Modify ByLaw 18 to sanction a National Collegiate Championship for D-II/III men.
(b) Modify D-II Bylaw 15 to reduce scholarship limits for men's ice hockey to 0.

I agree with Joe, with the "why bother" being to allow the student athletes of the DII schools to participate in a championship and the DIII schools a chance to play against (and have count toward their records) an expanded field that contributes to cost savings by reducing necessary travel and helps secure the AQ’s and perhaps at some schools, the sport itself.

Some (such as Jerry) do have valid points that the strengths/benefits of DII athletic departments inherent to the additional commitment made to them by their administration would carry over even if the hockey programs were operated under DIII policies. They may contend that the only thing keeping the best of the “non-DI” players from the DII schools is the lack of DII’s schools to offer a championship. IMO, there is certainly some creditability to the line of thought, however, IMO, these “non-DI” players will understand that playing under DIII rules against DIII competition will mean that scouts and other NHL potential carrier boosting benefits will come more from the school’s history, coaches, SOS, etc than the minor advantage of the athletic department being DII.

 

[jerrynu26]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Just for clarification, I've wanted the DII games to count for a long time.
as shown here.

 

[joecct]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I agree with Joe, with the "why bother" being to allow the student athletes of the DII schools to participate in a championship and the DIII schools a chance to play against (and have count toward their records) an expanded field that contributes to cost savings by reducing necessary travel and helps secure the AQ’s and perhaps at some schools, the sport itself.

Some (such as Jerry) do have valid points that the strengths/benefits of DII athletic departments inherent to the additional commitment made to them by their administration would carry over even if the hockey programs were operated under DIII policies. They may contend that the only thing keeping the best of the “non-DI” players from the DII schools is the lack of DII’s schools to offer a championship. IMO, there is certainly some creditability to the line of thought, however, IMO, these “non-DI” players will understand that playing under DIII rules against DIII competition will mean that scouts and other NHL potential carrier boosting benefits will come more from the school’s history, coaches, SOS, etc than the minor advantage of the athletic department being DII.

Norm

Good points as usual in this thread (rep forthcoming). The 6 schools in question appear not to be as athletically minded as some other schools and appear to be more D-III in their hockey philosophy than D-II.

Can anyone (Charlie????) plant a bug in some D-III president's ear and get this ball rolling????

 

[norm1909]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Norm

Good points as usual in this thread (rep forthcoming). The 6 schools in question appear not to be as athletically minded as some other schools and appear to be more D-III in their hockey philosophy than D-II.

Can anyone (Charlie????) plant a bug in some D-III president's ear and get this ball rolling????

I agree, especially St. Mikes - which I believe will eventually transition entirely to DIII. In all cases, I believe they would embrace the idea of having DIII hockey programs and the championship potential if they could. The biggest reluctance I can think of against the idea is the precedence such an exception would create, including the ability to weaken DII as a whole as well as the potential DIII perspective, that it would allow them to “have their cake and eat it to”. That said it is important that should an exception be created, it must be restrictive/conditional enough, to make such conditions extremely difficult, though nevertheless obtainable, should conditions such as those currently existing in DII hockey unfortunately occur in the future.

 

[hawkhockey]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

As a condition of being included in the interlock,the saints had to agree with ALL conditions in the original agrreement ,including NO scholarships for hockey.
playing without scholarships will not be a problem.If they have to sign a binding agreement with the ECAC,NCAA etc.,I am sure that will happen
In addition ,at St.A's, there are no monies set aside to help attract and retain(with financial aid) foreign students that may or may not be hockey players.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

My first question would be: If a DII/III NC Division were created, what are the chances that any other schools would be interested in joining? I'm sure there are some ACHA teams (M1, possibly even M2) that might consider such an opportunity. But who knows?

What about Minnesota-Crookston? Would they consider coming back?


My next question would be: How would this growth affect DIII Hockey (umm... Men's "National Collegiate hockey?")? Perhaps some new teams in the League would balance out the conference issues? Or would they all flock to the ECAC-NE and make the problem worse?

A lot of "what if?" scenarios to consider here.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

My first question would be: If a DII/III NC Division were created, what are the chances that any other schools would be interested in joining? I'm sure there are some ACHA teams (M1, possibly even M2) that might consider such an opportunity. But who knows?

What about Minnesota-Crookston? Would they consider coming back?


My next question would be: How would this growth affect DIII Hockey (umm... Men's "National Collegiate hockey?")? Perhaps some new teams in the League would balance out the conference issues? Or would they all flock to the ECAC-NE and make the problem worse?

A lot of "what if?" scenarios to consider here.

I can’t speak for others, but I certainly wasn’t thinking so much as creating an open “DII/DIII Division”, I am for amending the rules to allow existing DII schools to compete with and under DIII policies. The amendment could easily include an “already existing program” clause, to prevent additional issues from arising. I am a strong believe that one should sleep in the bed they make, but I also understand, that in the spirit of Goldilocks, sometimes someone else has messed with your bed. These DII programs were created in good faith and at one time competed for championships – these programs should be allowed a feasible plan to offer their student athletes a complete playing experience.

 

[dreamer6]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Nobody's arguing. We're discussing on how to make an unwokable situation workable.

Where I think we've gotten agreement:
(a) Modify ByLaw 18 to sanction a National Collegiate Championship for D-II/III men.
(b) Modify D-II Bylaw 15 to reduce scholarship limits for men's ice hockey to 0.

I realize other D2 teams offer athletic scholarships, but St. A's & St. Mike's do not offer scholarships for ice hockey. The only sport they give scholarships for is basketball. So I guess I am missing how they have any advantage over any of the D3 teams? Would this fact possibly help their case and allow them to remain in the ECAC East (and have the games played against them count)?

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I realize other D2 teams offer athletic scholarships, but St. A's & St. Mike's do not offer scholarships for ice hockey. The only sport they give scholarships for is basketball. So I guess I am missing how they have any advantage over any of the D3 teams? Would this fact possibly help their case and allow them to remain in the ECAC East (and have the games played against them count)?

If I'm understanding the argument correctly, they are discussing other advantages DII schools tend to have. In essence, the difference between schools that choose DII membership over DIII membership tends to be fundamental philosophy. DII schools tend to be more willing to commit portion of their budget to athletics (although less that DI schools), because they view athletics as even more of an integral part of the educational process than do the DIII schools.

As such, the quality of training equipment common to all sports teams will tend to be greater, quality of training and support staff will tend to be greater, and quality of advisement and counseling for student athletes will tend to be greater. These would all, in the end, prove to be an advantage should DII teams compete in DIII as championship-eligible teams. (being non-eligible for a championship is a huge hindrance in recruiting - enough to nullify most advantages accrued from other areas, such as training, counseling, etc.)

Of course, I should note that these arguments are based on major generalizations of both DII and DIII schools, which may or may not apply to the 6 DII schools in question, or even the 71(?) DIII schools in question. I'm not a part of the athletic departments or administration for any of these institutions, so I couldn't tell you how this would pertain to these specific schools. But, based on such generalizations, chances are good that DII schools, if relieved of that recruiting difficulty, could gain a competitive advantage in this sense.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

If I'm understanding the argument correctly, they are discussing other advantages DII schools tend to have. In essence, the difference between schools that choose DII membership over DIII membership tends to be fundamental philosophy. DII schools tend to be more willing to commit portion of their budget to athletics (although less that DI schools), because they view athletics as even more of an integral part of the educational process than do the DIII schools.

As such, the quality of training equipment common to all sports teams will tend to be greater, quality of training and support staff will tend to be greater, and quality of advisement and counseling for student athletes will tend to be greater. These would all, in the end, prove to be an advantage should DII teams compete in DIII as championship-eligible teams. (being non-eligible for a championship is a huge hindrance in recruiting - enough to nullify most advantages accrued from other areas, such as training, counseling, etc.)

Of course, I should note that these arguments are based on major generalizations of both DII and DIII schools, which may or may not apply to the 6 DII schools in question, or even the 71(?) DIII schools in question. I'm not a part of the athletic departments or administration for any of these institutions, so I couldn't tell you how this would pertain to these specific schools. But, based on such generalizations, chances are good that DII schools, if relieved of that recruiting difficulty, could gain a competitive advantage in this sense.

IMO, Cards you are on the same page as I am. I certainly acknowledge that the stronger administrative stance shown by a school adopting a DII strategy over a DIII strategy does give them a potential recruiting advantage. That said, if the school chooses to adhere to DIII polices in a particular program for the purpose of competing exclusively among DIII competition, this would significant reduce – though NOT eliminate that advantage. My feeling is that we are talking about student athletes who did not make the DI cut, many of these athletes nevertheless still foster strong hopes of extending their lifelong commitment to the sport by playing at some level beyond college, these student athletes will look at the big picture, with the schools historical legacy, current coaches and staff as well as SOS and other factors more important than the general strength of the athletic department. Hopefully, all of these student athletes will also recognize that a career leading to a successful retirement is a long shot even at DI and far less likely anywhere else, hence, their primary objective should be to choose the school most compatible with their occupational career goals. As I’ve noted, IMO, any residual advantages the schools may maintain by virtue of otherwise being DII institutions is likely to be less significant that the differences between DIII private versus public institutions.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Hopefully, all of these student athletes will also recognize that a career leading to a successful retirement is a long shot even at DI and far less likely anywhere else, hence, their primary objective should be to choose the school most compatible with their occupational career goals. As I’ve noted, IMO, any residual advantages the schools may maintain by virtue of otherwise being DII institutions is likely to be less significant that the differences between DIII private versus public institutions.

Just to put it in perspective...Given a choice between Anselm's and Norwich, would Norwich's history of DIII success outweigh St. Anselm's status as a DII program?

Then look at a choice between St. Anselm's and Framingham State under the same circumstances. What would Framingham State be able to offer a recruit to outweigh St. Anselm's DII status?

 

[altazo]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Just to put it in perspective...Given a choice between Anselm's and Norwich, would Norwich's history of DIII success outweigh St. Anselm's status as a DII program?

Just what I was thinking. I see the point about DII school's athletic departments being generally more likely to fund and support it's teams with facilities, etc. However, at this time I just don't see a kid who is a fringe level DI player choosing to attend St. Anselm or St. Mikes over say, Norwich, SNC, Plattsburgh, etc. etc. just to be able to tell his buddies from midget and junior hockey that he's playing at a DII school...

 

[joecct]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Guys

Aren't there disparities among the current D-III schools??? The ECAC-E & NE were created to separate the schools based on the resources devoted to the hockey programs. That's still the case right now.

There are D-III schools out there that treat there hockey programs with lots of resources (Middlebury, Norwich, CSS, SNC for example) with traveling radio, TV, first rate facilities, an engaged and active SID department. At the other end are schools where you may or may not have the SID engaged, no radio or TV, and the facilities are mediocre at best. That's just within D-III.

So what big advantage will the NE10 have over the ECAC-E, SUNYAC, NCHA, NESCAC or ECAC-W??