Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

[jerrynu26]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Need some help with this.At the recent NCAA hockey meeting ,one of the major/significanr objections to allowing DII games to count was that there is "unbalanced funding in DII","DII programs fund their programs differently thab DIII schools which give them a competetive advantage over DIII." these were direct quotes of Ad's and coaches.
most of the DII schools in question, provide "need based" aid,usually not at 100%, to students, students playing hockey included.The tuition room and board etc.is >$40,000.how is this a funding advantage over a DIII private school or a DIII public?
Thanks

I think they are referring to the funding of the athletic department in general. That gives them some advantages that do carry over to all student athletes, whether there is any athletic scholorship involved or not.

 

[hawkhockey]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I think they are referring to the funding of the athletic department in general. That gives them some advantages that do carry over to all student athletes, whether there is any athletic scholorship involved or not.

sorry,I'm slow today, could you elaborate for me as to the the advantage in the athletic department away from hockey..thanks

 

[jerrynu26]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

sorry,I'm slow today, could you elaborate for me as to the the advantage in the athletic department away from hockey..thanks

Higher allocations (as a percentage of the schools budget if you will) can result in more resources available to the student athlete. These might be higher availablilty of academic counselling, access to more complex training resources, etc.

 

[hawkhockey]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Now I get it.So given that the schools,DII, have/may have more financial resources than DIII and looking at the overall success of the programs(W/L) then it would appear that the schools do not know how to allocate the resources to produce better programs.
i thinl the only mens program wit a winning record yhis year was St.a's

 

[jerrynu26]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Now I get it.So given that the schools,DII, have/may have more financial resources than DIII and looking at the overall success of the programs(W/L) then it would appear that the schools do not know how to allocate the resources to produce better programs.
i thinl the only mens program wit a winning record yhis year was St.a's

If thats the way you want to read it go ahead. If you want to be reasonable and entertaint he possiblity that DII rules allow them to invest in more things than DIII programs can, you might see the differences.

But its not looking good. Better get Monarchs tix.

 

[joecct]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Need some help with this.At the recent NCAA hockey meeting ,one of the major/significanr objections to allowing DII games to count was that there is "unbalanced funding in DII","DII programs fund their programs differently thab DIII schools which give them a competetive advantage over DIII." these were direct quotes of Ad's and coaches.
most of the DII schools in question, provide "need based" aid,usually not at 100%, to students, students playing hockey included.The tuition room and board etc.is >$40,000.how is this a funding advantage over a DIII private school or a DIII public?
Thanks

Same argument that then Middlebury Prez McCardell made when comparing the D-III play-ups to D-I.

I mean, how can RIT compare to Michigan or UNH????

 

[NUProf]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I think they are referring to the funding of the athletic department in general. That gives them some advantages that do carry over to all student athletes, whether there is any athletic scholorship involved or not.

In point of fact there was only one DII school (Stonehill )
that exploited this advantage in the hockey arena - they had a 0.500 record against DIII competition (6-6-1). Every other DII school had a losing record vs. DIII competition -

St. Mike's (3-13-2)
St. Anselm's (9-12)
Assumption (4-8)
Franklin Pierce (3-9-1)
Southern NH (2-8-1) all had losing records against DIII programs. Overall, DII was (27-55-4) against DIII programs. Certainly must be an unfair advantage that DII programs have -- heck they had a 0.337 winning percentage against DIII programs. That certainly disqualifies them from any right to have their games counted. Seems obvious to me

 

[jerrynu26]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

In point of fact there was only one DII school (Stonehill )
that exploited this advantage in the hockey arena - they had a 0.500 record against DIII competition (6-6-1). Every other DII school had a losing record vs. DIII competition -

St. Mike's (3-13-2)
St. Anselm's (9-12)
Assumption (4-8)
Franklin Pierce (3-9-1)
Southern NH (2-8-1) all had losing records against DIII programs. Overall, DII was (27-55-4) against DIII programs. Certainly must be an unfair advantage that DII programs have -- heck they had a 0.337 winning percentage against DIII programs. That certainly disqualifies them from any right to have their games counted. Seems obvious to me

The fact they have not been able to attract enough talent to be successful against the DIII schools is (most likely) because they cannot compete for a NC. The fact remains that if they were allowed to compete for a DIII NC, the athletes at a DII school have access an athletics department that is allowed to perform under DII, not DIII rules.

But if everyone wants to ignore that fact, rather than refute it, go right ahead.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

The fact they have not been able to attract enough talent to be successful against the DIII schools is (most likely) because they cannot compete for a NC. The fact remains that if they were allowed to compete for a DIII NC, the athletes at a DII school have access an athletics department that is allowed to perform under DII, not DIII rules.

But if everyone wants to ignore that fact, rather than refute it, go right ahead.

I see your point about the ability to compete for a championship, but the intermediate step of allowing their games to be counted in the NCAA qualification criteria would help keep the ECAC E together. That is really the point that I was addressing with that calculation.

It's clear that with the breakup of the interlock, the two Saints are going to have to go if their games don't count. Otherwise, the ECAC E teams are looking at a 21 game schedule or less in the calculations for the regional rankings and NCAA seedings.

 

[joecct]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

The fact they have not been able to attract enough talent to be successful against the DIII schools is (most likely) because they cannot compete for a NC. The fact remains that if they were allowed to compete for a DIII NC, the athletes at a DII school have access an athletics department that is allowed to perform under DII, not DIII rules.

But if everyone wants to ignore that fact, rather than refute it, go right ahead.

I don't think the D-II's will ever be allowed to compete for the D-III title. The only solution is an NCC, but will the D-III's and D-II's put their heads together and do it??

 

[hawkhockey]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

If thats the way you want to read it go ahead. If you want to be reasonable and entertaint he possiblity that DII rules allow them to invest in more things than DIII programs can, you might see the differences.

But its not looking good. Better get Monarchs tix.

look,all i am trying to get to, is exactly what can DII.the ones we are talking about,invest in that DIII teams cannot that would effect their chances of success in DIII.As to your comment regarding monarch tickets,thanks but there are a lot of very good college hockey teams in the boston area, and as a former college hockey player,i find your comment insulting to anyone who played the game.
i thought the whole idea ,was to promote and expand the college game.

 

[jerrynu26]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

look,all i am trying to get to, is exactly what can DII.the ones we are talking about,invest in that DIII teams cannot that would effect their chances of success in DIII.As to your comment regarding monarch tickets,thanks but there are a lot of very good college hockey teams in the boston area, and as a former college hockey player,i find your comment insulting to anyone who played the game.
i thought the whole idea ,was to promote and expand the college game.

You need thicker skin then.

Get the athletic department to abide by ALL DIII rules, and you'd probably have far less of a problem.

 

[joecct]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

You need thicker skin then.

Get the athletic department to abide by ALL DIII rules, and you'd probably have far less of a problem.

Jerry

Well, based on the current rules proposals (see below post #33), D-II's won't have to abide by the D-III rules. The question that the D-II & III presidents have to ask is would the D-II's have a competitive advantage over the D-III's if they competed in the same championship pool??

Frankly, I think they would, if they could offer athletic scholarships. Can they legislate around that???

Too many conundrums....

 

[norm1909]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Jerry

Well, based on the current rules proposals (see below post #33), D-II's won't have to abide by the D-III rules. The question that the D-II & III presidents have to ask is would the D-II's have a competitive advantage over the D-III's if they competed in the same championship pool??

Frankly, I think they would, if they could offer athletic scholarships. Can they legislate around that???

Too many conundrums....

First, I agree with Jerry that the DII athletic departments have an inherent advantage over their DIII counterparts, at a minimum, by the virtue of the enhanced emphasis DII schools place on their athletics in meeting their mission.

That said would the inherent benefits of the athletic departments provide a material advantage to the DII hockey programs, if the DII hockey programs adopted the DIII policies?

IMO, as a result of a return on their additional investment in meeting the DII athletic structure (scholarships, etc), the DII schools hopefully have better generic name recognition and the perception of stronger athletic department support. That said if a school chooses to tie the hands of their hockey program to the policies of a DIII school, those advantages should fall to the wayside once a potential recruit begins the personal selection process. I believe any residual benefits inherent to the DII position are likely to be less than the advantages between public and private DIII schools. I believe the general consensus would be that the private schools have a marketing, prestige and financial aid potential over the public schools where the public schools have lower cost and higher government aid availability, yet in the end, the hockey programs compete fairly against one another. In summary, IMO, DII schools operating hockey programs under DIII policies to the maximum extent possible within a DII athletic program, would not have a materially significant advantage. I believe the current win/loss percentages of the DII hockey programs against DIII schools supports my position.

 

[joecct]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Norm

Nice points... But if the D-II's could offer athletic scholarships, how much would that tilt the playing field?????

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Norm

Nice points... But if the D-II's could offer athletic scholarships, how much would that tilt the playing field?????

Why don't you ask RIT?

 

[norm1909]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Norm

Nice points... But if the D-II's could offer athletic scholarships, how much would that tilt the playing field?????

It would offer TOO MUCH of a potential tilt; the only fair compromise would require the hockey programs to adhere to DIII protocol (including NO scholarships for hockey players).

 

[joecct]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

It would offer TOO MUCH of a potential tilt; the only fair compromise would require the hockey programs to adhere to DIII protocol (including NO scholarships for hockey players).

Impasse.

Back to square 1.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

It would offer TOO MUCH of a potential tilt; the only fair compromise would require the hockey programs to adhere to DIII protocol (including NO scholarships for hockey players).

Which they could - it would require legislation that would set the number of scholarships for hockey in DII at 0. This wouldn't affect any of the play-up schools which are governed by the DI rules - and would be grandfathered like the DIII schools that were already offering scholarships.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Which they could - it would require legislation that would set the number of scholarships for hockey in DII at 0. This wouldn't affect any of the play-up schools which are governed by the DI rules - and would be grandfathered like the DIII schools that were already offering scholarships.

We have a winner - this (complete adaptation of DIII policies) is IMO, the ONLY way the DII schools can compete on a "fair enough" field, until then, they need to "sleep in the bed they make", even if sadly, it means an end (or trivialization) of the DII hockey programs.