WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

[altazo]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Completely agree that every team will compete their hardest and an existing MCHA team will probably beat the Green Knights at some point during the initial season, but in until someone other than the Green Knights gets the AQ it will not be a major recruiting hurdle for the WIAC to get past. Especially as time goes on, if St. Norbert runs the AQ table for the next five to ten years (looking at their history that is very realistic) in the MCHA, it might actually start to hurt the other MCHA schools ability to recruit. The instant credibility that the MCHA desired and now believes it has by adding two very tough NCHA teams could back fire and really end up hurting this upswing that everyone is talking about. Especially if what people are saying is true about Lake Forest and Marian.

By this logic you are essentially stating that SNC's success has hurt the WIAC schools recruiting, and that when SNC leaves the WIAC teams will attract better recruits? And in turn, the rest of the MCHA teams will have a harder time recruiting because they'll have one of the best teams in the nation in their conference to compete with? Not so sure I buy that. And besides, I thought it was all the financial aid that SNC was able to offer recruits that attracted them away from WIAC schools? That's been the tone for many years now.

SNC is joining a conference of schools with similar demographics and similar commitments to their hockey programs. When SNC joined the NCHA in 1994 they were a little (OK, way) in over their heads. They adjusted, adapted, and grew into the program they are today. By joining the MCHA, it's almost like they're giving back to the sport by doing for teams like Concordia, Finlandia, and Northland the same thing that the WIAC schools did for them in the 1990's.

With the state of public education in Wisconsin today, I really don't see how the WIAC schools withdrawing from the NCHA to soley do their own thing could be misconstrued and viewed as any sort of positive or a deepening of a commitment towards ice hockey.

Marian just hired SNC's Associate (not assistant) head coach. My gut tells me they're going to be OK. LFC just renovated their on campus ice rink and built a new campus athletic center. Concordia is playing in a new rink this season and hired a full time assistant. Now SNC and CSS are joining in 2013. These are things people are talking about when you here the word "upswing."

 

[joeyc3402]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Blugold Hockey, the MCHA has been a "Pool A only" conference ever since they became a Pool A conference. Until then, the top teams had virtually zero chance of making it to the tournament because of the overall horrible collective Strength of Schedule.

With SNC and CSS joining, Concordia seeming to get higher and higher caliber recruits coming to play for Jasen Wise, LFC moving in the right direction, and even teams like Northland improving, the SoS will collectively get a huge boost in the next couple of seasons, which is going to make Pool C bids a realistic possibility.

I fail to see how this will do anything but hurt WIAC schools.

 

[4and20]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Regarding the AQ and pool B & C, I have a question that I hope someone could answer. Beginning with the 2013-2014 seasons the new WIAC will only have five (5) teams on the mens side. And because there are other conferences that do not have seven (7) teams, don't all these school go into the B pool and only one gets in the the NCAA tourny and the rest go home. As in they do not defult to the C pool. Also, if other conferences add teams get to seven (7) and the WIAC is the only group left in B pool they get nothing because there are not enought school left in the B pool?

 

[joeyc3402]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Regarding the AQ and pool B & C, I have a question that I hope someone could answer. Beginning with the 2013-2014 seasons the new WIAC will only have five (5) teams on the mens side. And because there are other conferences that do not have seven (7) teams, don't all these school go into the B pool and only one gets in the the NCAA tourny and the rest go home. As in they do not defult to the C pool. Also, if other conferences add teams get to seven (7) and the WIAC is the only group left in B pool they get nothing because there are not enought school left in the B pool?

False - they ARE eligible for the C pool, unless there's been a change to the rules.

And you are correct in that if the five WIAC schools are the only non-AQ affiliated teams, the Pool B bid goes away.

 

[BetterInLakePlacid]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Thinking about all this I can't help but wonder if this never would have happened if Frank O'Brien still were athletic director at UWSP. He also used to be NCHA commissioner and was a hockey guy. I can't see this ever happening under his watch. It's almost like people waited for him to retire and then swung into action or something.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

One thing to remember when you're debating whether SNC will go undefeated in conference play in the MCHA their first season: they will have an entire recruiting class recruited with the "New MCHA" as a recruiting tool. I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of the non-Adrian/MSOE/Marian teams turns things around and actually ends up ranked, if not a contender for a Pool C. That said, I'm not exactly predicting that will happen... but you could see 3 or 4, out of SNC, CSS, Adrian, MSOE, and Marian in the Pool C discussion in February '14.

 

[altazo]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

I don't think anyone close to the SNC program is thinking they are going to run the table in the MCHA. At a minimum, they are going to have a total of 10 games against CSS, LU, Adrian, Marian, and MSOE. You'd have to be a fool to assume any team in the nation would easily run that table. And that's not even taking into consideration the likely improvement of the other schools as well.

 

[norm1909]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

False - they ARE eligible for the C pool, unless there's been a change to the rules.

And you are correct in that if the five WIAC schools are the only non-AQ affiliated teams, the Pool B bid goes away.

Or put another way, the Pool B slot created by the elimination of a Pool A AQ will be eliminated in the event a new Pool A AQ is created.

 

[NUProf]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Or put another way, the Pool B slot created by the elimination of a Pool A AQ will be eliminated in the event a new Pool A AQ is created.

What the ECAC West giveth, the ECAC West taketh away...

 

[Blugold Hockey]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Answering your post altazo..

By this logic you are essentially stating that SNC's success has hurt the WIAC schools recruiting, and that when SNC leaves the WIAC teams will attract better recruits? And in turn, the rest of the MCHA teams will have a harder time recruiting because they'll have one of the best teams in the nation in their conference to compete with? Not so sure I buy that. And besides, I thought it was all the financial aid that SNC was able to offer recruits that attracted them away from WIAC schools? That's been the tone for many years now.

-----I’m not saying that at all. I’m saying the quality recruits that the NCHA / WIAC teams have been able to attract / commit are not all of a sudden going to be drying up, like a lot of people have assumed or would like. The reason the NCHA has been one of the best conferences in the country is because of its depth with all of its teams. The MCHA is in the middle stages of this upswing and doesn’t have the history / legacy that the NCHA / WIAC teams have built / earned (yet). I really don’t believe that St. Norbert and The Saints leaving does will change anything (recruit wise) except that two of the seven solid programs are not there anymore. I have never paid attention to the “financial aid” aspect of all of this, because I’ve always felt if your cheating it will eventually come out. So anyone who is saying the Knights are doing something against NCAA rules IMO are focusing in the wrong area and should really look internally at what their own favorite team is not doing right. My point is that if one of the current MCHA teams is able to earn the AQ one of the first two – three years, it could make things more competitive with the better DIII recruits. However if St. Norbert wins the AQ for the next decade (and as long as Tim Coughlin is their Head Coach is very possible) I think the upswing will have stalled and some of the teams that were starting to get better during this upswing will potentially take some steps backwards.


SNC is joining a conference of schools with similar demographics and similar commitments to their hockey programs. When SNC joined the NCHA in 1994 they were a little (OK, way) in over their heads. They adjusted, adapted, and grew into the program they are today. By joining the MCHA, it's almost like they're giving back to the sport by doing for teams like Concordia, Finlandia, and Northland the same thing that the WIAC schools did for them in the 1990's.

-----When St. Norbert joined the NCHA they had some guy named Tim Coughlin as their Coach. No offense to any of the coaches in the MCHA, but they’re not Tim Coughlin. So I hope they enjoy the Knights giving back every time they play them.


With the state of public education in Wisconsin today, I really don't see how the WIAC schools withdrawing from the NCHA to soley do their own thing could be misconstrued and viewed as any sort of positive or a deepening of a commitment towards ice hockey.

-----I think there are several reasons why the seperation happened and the only public one that holds any water is the money saved on the Women’s side. IMO this might be the nail in the coffin for Women’s Ice hockey in the WIAC. I’ve gone to a handful of UWEC Women’s games and if you subtract the parents in the stands the attendance would maybe reach five. On the flip side I try to make the UWEC’s Men’s games when I’m in town and I have finally been to all of the venues of all of the schools in the NCHA and the attendance / support that I’ve seen is excellent. UWEC is two years removed from the University giving (if I remember right) $2 Million towards the $5 Million dollar rink renovation that included new Men’s and Women’s locker rooms and a work out / training area on site at the rink. I believe that River Falls is making major renovations to their already nice set up. So I think the support towards the commitment of hockey in the WIAC is just fine.

Marian just hired SNC's Associate (not assistant) head coach. My gut tells me they're going to be OK. LFC just renovated their on campus ice rink and built a new campus athletic center. Concordia is playing in a new rink this season and hired a full time assistant. Now SNC and CSS are joining in 2013. These are things people are talking about when you here the word "upswing."

-----My referring to Marian and Lake Forest is just what I’ve read on this forum that I assume are from people that have knowledge of what’s going on with their favorite program. Is Marian helping out their new Head Coach by hiring a full time Assistant like Concordia did or are they giving the same kind of support that caused them to lose a pretty solid head coach to a rival? From what I read about Lake Forest it sounds like there are some major internal issues that if they don’t get resolved will make it impossible for them to contribute toward the upswing anytime soon.

 

[Blugold Hockey]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Blugold Hockey, the MCHA has been a "Pool A only" conference ever since they became a Pool A conference. Until then, the top teams had virtually zero chance of making it to the tournament because of the overall horrible collective Strength of Schedule.

With SNC and CSS joining, Concordia seeming to get higher and higher caliber recruits coming to play for Jasen Wise, LFC moving in the right direction, and even teams like Northland improving, the SoS will collectively get a huge boost in the next couple of seasons, which is going to make Pool C bids a realistic possibility.

I fail to see how this will do anything but hurt WIAC schools.

I draw my optimism from the ECAC West. They haven’t even had a Pool B to go for and it hasn’t really seemed to affect their ability to get a bid. I realize the MCHA didn’t have any luck in the past trying to get a Pool B / C bid, but at the same time it was a newer league with out the legacy. And through no fault of its own wasn’t really able to have much of a non – conference schedule to help them show anyone they belonged. So as long as the WIAC is able to schedule a solid non – conference schedule against western teams, I think they’ll be just fine.

 

[NUProf]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Answering your post altazo..

I thought I might make it a little clearer who said what. altazo's comments will be in the quote boxes and Blugold's will sit outside

By this logic you are essentially stating that SNC's success has hurt the WIAC schools recruiting, and that when SNC leaves the WIAC teams will attract better recruits? And in turn, the rest of the MCHA teams will have a harder time recruiting because they'll have one of the best teams in the nation in their conference to compete with? Not so sure I buy that. And besides, I thought it was all the financial aid that SNC was able to offer recruits that attracted them away from WIAC schools? That's been the tone for many years now.

-----I’m not saying that at all. I’m saying the quality recruits that the NCHA / WIAC teams have been able to attract / commit are not all of a sudden going to be drying up, like a lot of people have assumed or would like. The reason the NCHA has been one of the best conferences in the country is because of its depth with all of its teams. The MCHA is in the middle stages of this upswing and doesn’t have the history / legacy that the NCHA / WIAC teams have built / earned (yet). I really don’t believe that St. Norbert and The Saints leaving does will change anything (recruit wise) except that two of the seven solid programs are not there anymore. I have never paid attention to the “financial aid” aspect of all of this, because I’ve always felt if your cheating it will eventually come out. So anyone who is saying the Knights are doing something against NCAA rules IMO are focusing in the wrong area and should really look internally at what their own favorite team is not doing right. My point is that if one of the current MCHA teams is able to earn the AQ one of the first two – three years, it could make things more competitive with the better DIII recruits. However if St. Norbert wins the AQ for the next decade (and as long as Tim Coughlin is their Head Coach is very possible) I think the upswing will have stalled and some of the teams that were starting to get better during this upswing will potentially take some steps backwards.

SNC is joining a conference of schools with similar demographics and similar commitments to their hockey programs. When SNC joined the NCHA in 1994 they were a little (OK, way) in over their heads. They adjusted, adapted, and grew into the program they are today. By joining the MCHA, it's almost like they're giving back to the sport by doing for teams like Concordia, Finlandia, and Northland the same thing that the WIAC schools did for them in the 1990's.

-----When St. Norbert joined the NCHA they had some guy named Tim Coughlin as their Coach. No offense to any of the coaches in the MCHA, but they’re not Tim Coughlin. So I hope they enjoy the Knights giving back every time they play them.

With the state of public education in Wisconsin today, I really don't see how the WIAC schools withdrawing from the NCHA to soley do their own thing could be misconstrued and viewed as any sort of positive or a deepening of a commitment towards ice hockey.

-----I think there are several reasons why the seperation happened and the only public one that holds any water is the money saved on the Women’s side. IMO this might be the nail in the coffin for Women’s Ice hockey in the WIAC. I’ve gone to a handful of UWEC Women’s games and if you subtract the parents in the stands the attendance would maybe reach five. On the flip side I try to make the UWEC’s Men’s games when I’m in town and I have finally been to all of the venues of all of the schools in the NCHA and the attendance / support that I’ve seen is excellent. UWEC is two years removed from the University giving (if I remember right) $2 Million towards the $5 Million dollar rink renovation that included new Men’s and Women’s locker rooms and a work out / training area on site at the rink. I believe that River Falls is making major renovations to their already nice set up. So I think the support towards the commitment of hockey in the WIAC is just fine.

Marian just hired SNC's Associate (not assistant) head coach. My gut tells me they're going to be OK. LFC just renovated their on campus ice rink and built a new campus athletic center. Concordia is playing in a new rink this season and hired a full time assistant. Now SNC and CSS are joining in 2013. These are things people are talking about when you here the word "upswing."

-----My referring to Marian and Lake Forest is just what I’ve read on this forum that I assume are from people that have knowledge of what’s going on with their favorite program. Is Marian helping out their new Head Coach by hiring a full time Assistant like Concordia did or are they giving the same kind of support that caused them to lose a pretty solid head coach to a rival? From what I read about Lake Forest it sounds like there are some major internal issues that if they don’t get resolved will make it impossible for them to contribute toward the upswing anytime soon.

Hopefully doing this will clarify who is saying what, because without the quotes, I struggled a bit.

You're welcome

 

[joecct]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

I draw my optimism from the ECAC West. They haven’t even had a Pool B to go for and it hasn’t really seemed to affect their ability to get a bid. I realize the MCHA didn’t have any luck in the past trying to get a Pool B / C bid, but at the same time it was a newer league with out the legacy. And through no fault of its own wasn’t really able to have much of a non – conference schedule to help them show anyone they belonged. So as long as the WIAC is able to schedule a solid non – conference schedule against western teams, I think they’ll be just fine.

Who will they schedule?

WIAC -- 5 teams = 16 conference games
MCHA -- 10 teams -- 18 conference games
MIAC -- 9 teams -- 16 conference games

Now how the heck does it work out?

 

[Blugold Hockey]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Who will they schedule?

WIAC -- 5 teams = 16 conference games
MCHA -- 10 teams -- 18 conference games
MIAC -- 9 teams -- 16 conference games


Now how the heck does it work out?

Since the WIAC doesn't have the AQ I bet less is more when it comes to conference games. To me having the best conference record in a conference that doesn't have an AQ makes no sense. So reduce conference schedule maybe play each other three times like they are now and then the rest non conference. Some kind of interlock with the MIAC / MCHA. There's no room for error now for any WIAC team. Slow start or second half slide = no chance at a bid.

 

[norm1909]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Since the WIAC doesn't have the AQ I bet less is more when it comes to conference games. To me having the best conference record in a conference that doesn't have an AQ makes no sense. So reduce conference schedule maybe play each other three times like they are now and then the rest non conference. Some kind of interlock with the MIAC / MCHA. There's no room for error now for any WIAC team. Slow start or second half slide = no chance at a bid.

The WIAC will face the inability to schedule a strong SOS, as Adrian proved, it doesn't matter how good your record is, if your SOS isn't there, then neither is your bid. Unlike the ECAC-West (and the SUNYAC for that matter), the WIAC has 2 HUGE disadvantages - the inability to schedule (significantly) high caliber (i.e. high SOS) teams (Elmira, Middlebury, Norwich, Oswego, Plattsburgh, Utica, etc) AND the East-West split. Yes, the WIAC has a fading legacy (i.e. name recognition/yop of mind awareness).

I ALWAYS respect - and Expect - all fans to hold out hope and wish the best for their teams, reality is the WIAC really shot themselves in the skate with this one, I REALLY hope it doesn't prove to be a fatal wound.

Remember, their is NO rule against a DIII school creating advantage over another, DIII schools CAN and DO award scholarships and discounts/price advantages as recruitment aids (i.e. incentives). Athletic departments CAN and DO exploit these to their advantage (so long as ANY student meeting the targeted - non-athletic demographic qualifies for the incentive), BUT they can NOT create a situation where the athletic makeup disproportionately receives these incentives. The WIAC's are state subsidized schools, in an area with a strong hockey presence, there are potential tools to pry rabbits out of their hats, but that is what it is going to take.

 

[Blugold Hockey]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

The WIAC will face the inability to schedule a strong SOS, as Adrian proved, it doesn't matter how good your record is, if your SOS isn't there, then neither is your bid. Unlike the ECAC-West (and the SUNYAC for that matter), the WIAC has 2 HUGE disadvantages - the inability to schedule (significantly) high caliber (i.e. high SOS) teams (Elmira, Middlebury, Norwich, Oswego, Plattsburgh, Utica, etc) AND the East-West split. Yes, the WIAC has a fading legacy (i.e. name recognition/yop of mind awareness).

I ALWAYS respect - and Expect - all fans to hold out hope and wish the best for their teams, reality is the WIAC really shot themselves in the skate with this one, I REALLY hope it doesn't prove to be a fatal wound.

Remember, their is NO rule against a DIII school creating advantage over another, DIII schools CAN and DO award scholarships and discounts/price advantages as recruitment aids (i.e. incentives). Athletic departments CAN and DO exploit these to their advantage (so long as ANY student meeting the targeted - non-athletic demographic qualifies for the incentive), BUT they can NOT create a situation where the athletic makeup disproportionately receives these incentives. The WIAC's are state subsidized schools, in an area with a strong hockey presence, there are potential tools to pry rabbits out of their hats, but that is what it is going to take.

Norm I respectfully disagree with you. The WIAC’s conference schedule alone will be strong. The WIAC five were part of the NCHA seven that was arguably one of the toughest conferences in the country. I believe every team in the NCHA was ranked in the top 15 last year at one time or another. That didn’t just all of a sudden change. As far as Adrian and their scheduling issues, I think the WIAC’s location gives them a dramatic advantage for scheduling. The WIAC is right in the middle of the western conferences so I bet they’ll form an interlock with the MIAC (strong teams, Gustavus, St. Thomas, Hamline, St. Olaf, Concordia, and few other teams on an upswing), that shouldn’t hurt their SOS too bad. Then the MCHA is going to be looking for a few non-conference games too. So throw in St. Scholastica, St. Norbert, MSOE, Concordia, and the other upswing teams. So I don’t think they’ll have any shortage of teams to help boost their SOS.

 

[norm1909]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Norm I respectfully disagree with you. The WIAC’s conference schedule alone will be strong. The WIAC five were part of the NCHA seven that was arguably one of the toughest conferences in the country. I believe every team in the NCHA was ranked in the top 15 last year at one time or another. That didn’t just all of a sudden change. As far as Adrian and their scheduling issues, I think the WIAC’s location gives them a dramatic advantage for scheduling. The WIAC is right in the middle of the western conferences so I bet they’ll form an interlock with the MIAC (strong teams, Gustavus, St. Thomas, Hamline, St. Olaf, Concordia, and few other teams on an upswing), that shouldn’t hurt their SOS too bad. Then the MCHA is going to be looking for a few non-conference games too. So throw in St. Scholastica, St. Norbert, MSOE, Concordia, and the other upswing teams. So I don’t think they’ll have any shortage of teams to help boost their SOS.

A conference record without an AQ won't do much, as a whole, the conference will be .500, if SNC snobs/spites the WIAC, it is going to be tough. With deminished SOS of WIAC, getting teams with strong SOS's (i.e. little to gain and everything to loose is going to be VERY tough. I sincerely wish them the best, I remember 1992-99 very well, especially 1990 and want to see the WIAC succeed - though I am NOT happy with their departure from the NCHA. I appreciate the economic times and their need to preserve their primary mission (education). Scoring SOS building matchups is always a challenge - as Adrian proved, time will tell, but my money won't be on it happening.

 

[NorthernPike]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Maybe Eau Claire and Stevens Point should petition to join the MCHA!

 

[Dennis4896]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Yeah whatever happened to that Dennis guy who used to post on here? He probably went into hiding after everything he predicted couldn't have been further off. That guy must not know his rear end from a hole in the ground when it comes to Division 3 athletics.

I assume you're referring to me. Haven't been here for awhile because it's the off season. SNC and CSS joining the MCHA was one of the possible outcomes discussed earlier in this thread. It's not the outcome I thought was most likely, but at the time I believed the WIAC actually wanted SNC and CSS. Doesn't look that way now.

The MCHA, which is entering its 15th season, not only was the first to offer St. Norbert and St. Scholastica a new home, but apparently the only one.

Although the WIAC said it would be open to St. Norbert and St. Scholastica applying for the conference, no official invite was ever presented to the Green Knights, according to Coghlin.

Read more: http://www.uscho.com/2012/06/19/st-norbert-and-st-scholastica-to-join-mcha/#ixzz1ydMEU3mf

 

[pete99race]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

I assume you're referring to me. Haven't been here for awhile because it's the off season. SNC and CSS joining the MCHA was one of the possible outcomes discussed earlier in this thread. It's not the outcome I thought was most likely, but at the time I believed the WIAC actually wanted SNC and CSS. Doesn't look that way now.



Read more: http://www.uscho.com/2012/06/19/st-norbert-and-st-scholastica-to-join-mcha/#ixzz1ydMEU3mf

Interesting to see the different approach by the two conferences in this situation:
MCHA -- makes contact immediately to invite both schools to join.
WIAC -- made no attempt to reach out to the schools. I guess Mr Karner espected CSS and SNC to come to him on "bended knee".
Now he can 'stew' with his five men and four women teams....