Why does playoff turnout everwhere seem so low?

[chickod]

Re: Why does playoff turnout everwhere seem so low?

But the arrogance of those who run college sports means admitting what you are doing isn't working and needs big change will never happen.

Sounds eerily similar to the arrogance of those running this country...

 

[The Rube]

Re: Why does playoff turnout everwhere seem so low?

But I guess I'm still a moron, right Brenthoven?

Yes. As far as I am concerned, the NCHC didn't "reject" ND. ND signed on with HE because they actually had their sh* together.

 

[ericredaxe]

Re: Why does playoff turnout everwhere seem so low?

Other conferences probably have different issues where a lot of the travel / overnights involved come into play for people wanting to go to the conference tourneys.

For Hockey East it is simply a combo of price and the teams involved. Every team is a pretty easy drive from Boston with the exception of Notre Dame. 8 of the 11 teams don't even require a hotel stay. Many Maine fans who live in Portland and south also dont need a hotel stay.

Price is a factor. People are used to paying somewhere in the $15 to $24 range for a college game and don't like the $45 price tag (or whatever they charge at the Garden).

Despite all of that, Hockey East Tourney did farily well this year, considering the teams at the Garden probably were not the teams with the biggest following fan base on average. If the price were lower, you might get more people going, even if their team is not in.

 

[wolverineTrumpet]

Re: Why does playoff turnout everwhere seem so low?

I'll be interested to see how the B1G tournament in Detroit does. Will they go with the CCHA/GLI format of 2 game sessions on one ticket (what college hockey at the Joe fans are accustomed to) or the oWCHA/this year's B1G of separate tickets for each game? Personally, I like having one game right after the other. But I'm one of the few people that goes to games that their team isn't playing in.

 

[LTsatch]

Re: Why does playoff turnout everwhere seem so low?

I traveled from New Haven CT to Lake Placid this weekend for the ECAC tournament. My main reason for going was not hockey , but curiosity about Lake Placid itself, where I had never been. The cost for the weekend was $100 for tickets, $110 in gas, $250 for two nights in a hotel, and approximately $250 on food and drink. I had a great time and would probably only do it again if Yale was playing. The bruises on both of my arms from the bobsled ride are pretty cool though.

The approximately $700 spent could buy a very nice LED flatscreen. Television quality is so much better now, in the old days you couldn't even see the puck on the screen. Going out to local gathering with like minded fans and a great tv is almost as fun as watching in person.

 

[CLS]

Re: Why does playoff turnout everwhere seem so low?

While I agree that the TV experience is much better now, with big screens and HD, I think that hockey, much more than other sports, is a very different experience live than on TV. It’s not just the “atmosphere”, it’s that a lot more stuff is happening off-camera than in other sports. For example, a team dumps the puck in and the defenseman retrieves it. Why don’t you see a forechecker? Is it because they’re trapping or because they’re changing? On a typical TV broadcast, you don’t know; live you do. Is someone setting up for a stretch pass? On TV you don’t know. Why wasn’t the stretch pass attempted? Because they weren’t trying, or because the defensemen were defending it properly?

Football used to be that way with the passing game, but lots of cameras with different fields of view and the episodic nature of football lets you see everything between plays. Hockey can do that only intermittently.

I watch a lot more hockey on TV than I do live, but it’s because of laziness and cost. Every time I attend a game in person, I realize what a great experience live hockey is.

As for why I don’t go to conference tournaments, it’s for reasons that have already been covered. If I’m going to go to an even in addition to the FF, I’ll choose games that (1) are very meaningful to both teams, and (2) involve teams I don’t see all the time.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Why does playoff turnout everwhere seem so low?

Attendance figures to me anymore are simply a figment of the imagination of the PR people in charge. For many of these box scores and announced crowds there is no basis in fact. It is not tickets sold. We all know one of the huge reasons for drops in attendance is the high cost of tickets. I don't see how anyone can logically argue that this ISN'T the case. Yet year after year as we see more and more empty seats, everyone says that attendance figures supposedly represent tickets sold. There is no way, as tight as most people's budgets are nowadays, that more than 7000 people shelled out the $$$ to BUY B1G tickets on Thursday, then 5 or 6000 of them simply decided not to go. Anyone who saw the crowd for the PSU/UM game KNOWS there weren't 2000 people in the building. And since there were separate tickets required for the second game, you can't say it was the OSU and MSU fans just not showing up yet.

I can't speak specifically to the UM/PSU game. But I think the figures aren't that far off. I was at the MSU/OSU game. If you looked at it on TV, it looked like a thousand or so. But there were people all over the X. Sitting behind the goals, sitting high up in the arenas, walking around the concourses.

But it is tough for a single tournament to make up for the Final Five (which accounted for some 60% of total playoff attendance). And that will likely go down at the Joe...esp if the MI, MSU, OSU schools have soft years.

 

[Darius]

Re: Why does playoff turnout everwhere seem so low?

One of the worst kept secrets around Notre Dame is that Jackson absolutely wanted to go with the NCHC after the first 5 publicly teams bolted the CCHA. In fact his first choice after the formation of B1G Hockey was that no one else would leave the CCHA and it would have kept going, but once that wasn't in the cards, he was more interested in keeping a couple of old rivalries and re-igniting a few older ones that preceded his time in South Bend. Notre Dame was the last domino that fell that off season. The NCHC tells it a little differently claiming they rejected Notre Dame, and since most people around here don't care about the facts, I guess they get to say what they want. I'm sure I'm not the only one around here who has seen the initial private correspondences where Notre Dame is listed as one of the founding members of the NCHC. The NCHC's public "rejection" happened only after Notre Dame eventually decided to go elsewhere and the ink was already dry on their contract with Hockey East.

Initially I hoped for the NCHC too, then eventually after the dominoes were repositioned I was happy with Hockey East. But now, after a season of only having one road game within easy reach and attending a conference tourney not being a realistic proposition, I am back on the fence. Many of the fans I know felt similarly. All this crap isn't over IMO as well. In another five years there will be a couple of schools that drop hockey, the NCAA is going to undergo another round of huge seismic shifting led by the large football conferences, and I believe we're going to revisit the summer of 2012 all over again.

As a HEA/eastern outsider who doesn't pay as much attention in the offseason, WOW! Thanks.

 

[Almington]

I can't speak specifically to the UM/PSU game. But I think the figures aren't that far off. I was at the MSU/OSU game. If you looked at it on TV, it looked like a thousand or so. But there were people all over the X. Sitting behind the goals, sitting high up in the arenas, walking around the concourses.

But it is tough for a single tournament to make up for the Final Five (which accounted for some 60% of total playoff attendance). And that will likely go down at the Joe...esp if the MI, MSU, OSU schools have soft years.

The numbers are completely incomparable because of some tournaments doing single game tickets and others doing single session tickets.

I suspect the combined the B1G and NCHC was comparable to the old WCHA tournament attendance if the NCHC had 5 separate tickets. The decrease in attendance was due completely to not having the CCHA tournament in Detroit.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: Why does playoff turnout everwhere seem so low?

I can't speak specifically to the UM/PSU game. But I think the figures aren't that far off. I was at the MSU/OSU game. If you looked at it on TV, it looked like a thousand or so. But there were people all over the X. Sitting behind the goals, sitting high up in the arenas, walking around the concourses.

You're one of the few with that opinion then. All of the media seemed to believe the crowd for that game was only somewhat larger than the one for the first game. And it looked empty on TV because it was empty, relatively so. Shockingly, the B1G network seemed to not care if they actually showed the vast emptiness of the X. There were numerous shots of entire sections of nothing but empty seats. And my point still stands. There is no way in Hades that 7500 people bought tickets to the first game but 6000 at least decided against using them. We are far away from an economy that allows many to waste their money to that extent.

The attendance figures are -- in some cases at least -- outright lies. I have seen colleges make this stuff up. An example: At one point Ball State used to draw fairly well for their basketball team. So much so that they -- very misguidedly as it turns out -- decided to build a new stadium that seats 11,500. For the first couple of years they drew quite well, but just like in many places over the last few years, fewer and fewer people are finding live sporting events a worthy investment of their time and money. This is especially true of the younger than 25 set, which includes about 99% of college students. My cousin, who is a sports writer, was covering a game there a couple of years back. Disinterest among the locals and the students in a team that has been awful more often than not in the last decade had helped the crowds dwindle to no more than perhaps 1000-1200 most nights. They are lucky if 100 students show. When it came time to pass out the stat sheets to the media, he overheard the SID and a student assistant discuss what they should "announce" as the attendance. "Oh, I don't know, just say it was around 1500 and some." was basically the response. They made it up.

 

[chickod]

Re: Why does playoff turnout everwhere seem so low?

Yes. As far as I am concerned, the NCHC didn't "reject" ND. ND signed on with HE because they actually had their sh* together.

That's good. All I did was agree with the guy who said "I thought ND should have joined the NCHC." I didn't say WHO rejected them or anything else. I felt as though it would have been a better fit for them geographically.

But you're entitled to your opinion. Now please excuse me while I study. Morons need extra work to catch up with what's going on.

 

[buoldtimer]

Re: Why does playoff turnout everwhere seem so low?

I agree!

One Man's (perhaps uninformed) Opinion - The decision by HE and NE to get cozy had much less to do with hockey than with $$.

 

[buoldtimer]

Re: Why does playoff turnout everwhere seem so low?

As others have expressed below, the college basketball tournament clobbers college hockey. More so each season.

I think there are other factors, also, at least in Boston. The caliber of play has gradually diminished over the past 20+ seasons. There are so many opportunities for players who aren't dedicated students - go to Canada Major Junior, sign early, etc. The number of players that casual fans would go out of their way to see has decreased significantly.

Also, there are so few players in D1 who played in public or Catholic high schools in the Boston area, that again a casual fan who used to go to the HE tourney to watch someone from his hometown or who played with or against his son or a neighbor's son are very, very few. This last point applies to the Beanpot, also, I think.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Why does playoff turnout everwhere seem so low?

As others have expressed below, the college basketball tournament clobbers college hockey. More so each season.

I would chock some of that to the number of games. In CBB, there are 6 games and 8 teams per regional. In most conference hockey tourneys, there's 3 games. Its less likely your school is in with 4 teams...and if you're not a fan of those teams, its hard to get excited for just 3 games. The five games in part why the Final Five was such a spectacle and didn't hurt the B1G tourney either.

 

[Hockee]

Re: Why does playoff turnout everwhere seem so low?

You're one of the few with that opinion then. All of the media seemed to believe the crowd for that game was only somewhat larger than the one for the first game. And it looked empty on TV because it was empty, relatively so. Shockingly, the B1G network seemed to not care if they actually showed the vast emptiness of the X. There were numerous shots of entire sections of nothing but empty seats. And my point still stands. There is no way in Hades that 7500 people bought tickets to the first game but 6000 at least decided against using them. We are far away from an economy that allows many to waste their money to that extent.

The attendance figures are -- in some cases at least -- outright lies. I have seen colleges make this stuff up. An example: At one point Ball State used to draw fairly well for their basketball team. So much so that they -- very misguidedly as it turns out -- decided to build a new stadium that seats 11,500. For the first couple of years they drew quite well, but just like in many places over the last few years, fewer and fewer people are finding live sporting events a worthy investment of their time and money. This is especially true of the younger than 25 set, which includes about 99% of college students. My cousin, who is a sports writer, was covering a game there a couple of years back. Disinterest among the locals and the students in a team that has been awful more often than not in the last decade had helped the crowds dwindle to no more than perhaps 1000-1200 most nights. They are lucky if 100 students show. When it came time to pass out the stat sheets to the media, he overheard the SID and a student assistant discuss what they should "announce" as the attendance. "Oh, I don't know, just say it was around 1500 and some." was basically the response. They made it up.

All one had to do was go out to the Ticketmaster site on Wednesday of last week and you can see that the Big 10 lied through their teeth. There were huge blocks and sections of the upper deck that were never listed for sale, corners of the lower bowl had very few seats sold, and lower bowl sides had plenty of blocks available, even on the red line. Presale was no more than 5,000 per session No way they had walk up sales of 4,000. They sold no more than 5,000 and never had more than 4 in the building....

 

[Split-N]

Re: Why does playoff turnout everwhere seem so low?

...I think there are other factors, also, at least in Boston. The caliber of play has gradually diminished over the past 20+ seasons. There are so many opportunities for players who aren't dedicated students - go to Canada Major Junior, sign early, etc. The number of players that casual fans would go out of their way to see has decreased significantly.

Also, there are so few players in D1 who played in public or Catholic high schools in the Boston area, that again a casual fan who used to go to the HE tourney to watch someone from his hometown or who played with or against his son or a neighbor's son are very, very few. This last point applies to the Beanpot, also, I think.

Much as it pains me to agree with something posted by a BU guy, he's spot-on WRT what I would refer to as the decline (maybe even collapse) of Massachusetts youth hockey. In the not so distant past, Boston College prided itself on having all-Mass. rosters and plenty of local kids could be found at BU and Northeastern. Now the rosters of those three schools are peppered with kids from traditional hockey hotbeds Michigan and Minnesota, plus exotic places like California, Arizona, Colorado, Missouri, Illinois, and even.....Florida. So yes, the local angles that might attract casual fans is largely gone.

Once upon a time the USA Hockey youth national championships were dominated by teams from Minnesota, Michigan, and Massachusetts. Now, Massachusetts teams tend to get clobbered.

There are reasons for this but that's best left to another thread.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Why does playoff turnout everwhere seem so low?

Much as it pains me to agree with something posted by a BU guy, he's spot-on WRT what I would refer to as the decline (maybe even collapse) of Massachusetts youth hockey. In the not so distant past, Boston College prided itself on having all-Mass. rosters and plenty of local kids could be found at BU and Northeastern. Now the rosters of those three schools are peppered with kids from traditional hockey hotbeds Michigan and Minnesota, plus exotic places like California, Arizona, Colorado, Missouri, Illinois, and even.....Florida. So yes, the local angles that might attract casual fans is largely gone.

Once upon a time the USA Hockey youth national championships were dominated by teams from Minnesota, Michigan, and Massachusetts. Now, Massachusetts teams tend to get clobbered.

There are reasons for this but that's best left to another thread.

If you use the assumption that the attendance numbers are correct, the two MN tourneys outdrew the other six tourneys combined. When you look at where the population is, that's quite a statement about the interest level in much of the rest of the country. Its making the scramble for venues up here much more understandable.

 

[thedunker]

Re: Why does playoff turnout everwhere seem so low?

Yes. As far as I am concerned, the NCHC didn't "reject" ND. ND signed on with HE because they actually had their sh* together.

NCHC would not accept ND's tv demands so the went elsewhere.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: Why does playoff turnout everwhere seem so low?

If you use the assumption that the attendance numbers are correct, the two MN tourneys outdrew the other six tourneys combined. When you look at where the population is, that's quite a statement about the interest level in much of the rest of the country. Its making the scramble for venues up here much more understandable.

I don't know what else can be done to disabuse people of the notion that an assumption on the validity of these attendance numbers is wise, especially the B1G at the X. Sportswriters and others who generally shill for this sport wondering if the total butts in seats in the X is closer to 1000 or 500 isn't enough evidence? The laughable notion that 1000s and 1000s of people in a still slow economy will buy tickets to events where all the preliminary factors are known months ahead of time (dates, places, all 6 teams in...) and then NOT attend isn't enough evidence? When the attendance is bad and especially when it falls short of the PR script, they are making it up!

Besides, if the interest in NCAA hockey has dwindled down to one state, this sport is in big trouble. I actually don't believe interest has waned much, if at all. But people are not going to live sporting events like they were in earlier years. The evidence of that is clear across the spectrum of all sports, both college and pro.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: Why does playoff turnout everwhere seem so low?

NCHC would not accept ND's tv demands so the went elsewhere.

This is actually the correct answer and was probably about 90% of the reason Notre Dame did not end up in the NCHC. NBC has for a number of years been trying to migrate at least one ND home football game per season to the NBC Sports Network. I believe in the coming seasons, it's either 2 games every three years or 3 games every two years, will be on NBCSN. One of the tradeoffs there was an agreement for some fairly extensive TV coverage of hockey by NBCSN.