WCHA Thread V

[pgb-ohio]

Re: WCHA Thread V

Hockey East just went from 6 to 8 a year or so ago. I seem to recall most coaches said they kinda favored 6 because they wanted the season to mean something, but they felt the "bye" actually hurt the top 2 teams in the playoffs. So, #1 and #2 would rather play #7 and #8 - I think that was the main reason they went to 8.

In terms of disrespecting the regular season, I think letting 6 of 8 teams into the playoffs is actually the worst format. The message is that you're playing for 5 months to eliminate 2 teams, then you settle everything else in two weekends. Better just to say the regular season title and the conference playoffs are two separate events, and everyone is invited to both parties.

If making the regular season more meaningful is really the objective, then you need to eliminate at least half the teams. So for an 8 team league, you'd probably wind up with a four team playoff. Note that the NHL, often criticized for allowing too many teams into the playoff field, takes 16 of 30 teams -- just over half. Back in the day, they took 16 of 21. They were widely ridiculed for that ratio, and rightly so IMHO. Ultimately it's just a matter of opinion. But my feeling is that to truly be entitled to a playoff berth, to claim you've truly earned it, you need to win at least half your games.

I do agree that giving the top teams a weekend off can result in staleness -- and thus hurt those top teams. For that reason I'd allow a sub .500 team into the playoff field if it was necessary to eliminate a bye.

Also, we are talking about UM and UW getting 2 extra games that will be sellouts. That is something like 5000 extra tickets, extra video stream revenue, parking sales, extra vending sales and merchandise sales. In addition, it is good for the local communities - restaurants, hotels, etc. Extra $50,000 of revenue to your budget maybe? (-- for the bean counters out there - haha)

ARM beat me to it, but ... I was under the impression that the 1st Round of Conference playoffs were a poor draw pretty much everywhere. For both genders. One problem is that such games usually aren't part of the season ticket packages. Further, as ARM points out, because the games aren't a sure thing, group sales suffer. And perhaps the most important reason of all: The March sports calendar is so crowded that it's tough for any event to gain traction beyond its core constituency.

 

[shelfit]

Re: WCHA Thread V

Cut it down to 5 teams with #4 vs #5 playing on Tuesday or Wednesday for the right to advance to the weekend to play the first semi-final against #1 while #2 vs #3 play in the other semi final.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: WCHA Thread V

Cut it down to 5 teams with #4 vs #5 playing on Tuesday or Wednesday for the right to advance to the weekend to play the first semi-final against #1 while #2 vs #3 play in the other semi final.

Only a 1 team difference from the old HE set-up, but a better approach. With this format, it's tougher for anybody to claim either fatigue or staleness. Also, the #5 team could actually be at .500, or at least within shouting distance. I suppose #5 might find that making travel arrangements is problematic, given there'd be only 3-4 days notice...

 

[shelfit]

Re: WCHA Thread V

Only a 1 team difference from the old HE set-up, but a better approach. With this format, it's tougher for anybody to claim either fatigue or staleness. Also, the #5 team could actually be at .500, or at least within shouting distance. I suppose #5 might find that making travel arrangements is problematic, given there'd be only 3-4 days notice...

I think as the last few weeks of the regular season are winding down you'd know which of probably no more than two opponents you'd be playing if you're the 5th place team. I don't see the problem with travel within the conference. The only thing that might be a problem is the weather but that's true at any time. This setup really puts a premium on finishing in the top 4 of your conference and gives the 5th place team a chance to prove they weren't far off from the 4th place team. 6th through 8th should not be included in the playoffs - total waste of time. I agree that a first round free pass for the top 2 teams is not good for them. That's why you have to go with either 5 or 8 teams in the playoffs.

 

[robertearle]

Re: WCHA Thread V

I wish. The WCHA quarters historically don't draw well in Minneapolis, because they lack the group outings from youth teams that are a big part of the well-attended games.

In the two years since Wisconsin built LaBahn Arena, the first round WCHA games have averaged over 1000 per game; and because it is not part of the season ticket package, that is more than 1000 people actually in the building. (And over five games - remember, last year it took three games to get by Mankato.)

Prior to that (because of schedule conflicts at the Kohl Center) first round playoff games were played at the Eagle's Nest in Verona WI, which has a capacity of about 1000, and those games were always sellouts.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: WCHA Thread V

Shelfit,

If Ohio State is involved in the play-in game, you're talking about airfare for 25+ on less than 7 days notice. The problem with that is obvious. With 7+ days, you've at least got a shot at pricing below full coach fares.

For better or worse, 4th or 5th Place is approximately where we've been over the 16 year history of the Women's WCHA. Not every single year. And I'm not going to go back and count for purposes of this post. But I think it's safe to say that for the majority of the seasons in question, either the Buckeyes or our guests would have needed a plane flight had your format been in place.

Even if you assume a bus trip match-up, finding hotel rooms for 25+ on short notice can be problematic. Yes, late February/Early March isn't high season for travel, unless a large convention or event takes over a town. But even so, booking hotel rooms for a large group is often challenging, regardless of the time of year. No disrespect, but I'm guessing you've never had that duty. Otherwise you wouldn't dismiss the issue so lightly.

All that said, your format does have its selling points.

 

[ARM]

Re: WCHA Thread V

All that said, your format does have its selling points.

The WCHA had years where only the top five teams advanced. The format was that the play-in game between #4/#5 occurred on Thursday at the same site. That's what we'd see if the field was cut to five. The game was poorly attended beyond parents, because there was no fan base in the area primed for a Thursday night game. The Tuesday game makes no sense at all. Why have a team like OSU have to be in Duluth on Tuesday and then potentially Grand Forks on Saturday? Too large of an impact on school and/or the wear and tear of travel.

Plus, I don't buy the premise that having #6 advance is a waste of time. The current #6 is Bemidji State, and the only opponent they've yet to beat is #5 OSU. This is an attempt to fix something that isn't broken.

 

[shelfit]

Re: WCHA Thread V

Shelfit,

If Ohio State is involved in the play-in game, you're talking about airfare for 25+ on less than 7 days notice. The problem with that is obvious. With 7+ days, you've at least got a shot at pricing below full coach fares.

For better or worse, 4th or 5th Place is approximately where we've been over the 16 year history of the Women's WCHA. Not every single year. And I'm not going to go back and count for purposes of this post. But I think it's safe to say that for the majority of the seasons in question, either the Buckeyes or our guests would have needed a plane flight had your format been in place.

Even if you assume a bus trip match-up, finding hotel rooms for 25+ on short notice can be problematic. Yes, late February/Early March isn't high season for travel, unless a large convention or event takes over a town. But even so, booking hotel rooms for a large group is often challenging, regardless of the time of year. No disrespect, but I'm guessing you've never had that duty. Otherwise you wouldn't dismiss the issue so lightly.

All that said, your format does have its selling points.

Nobody cares about Ohio State anyway so don't worry about it too much. The fact that you've been in the same approximate spot each year maybe indicates a new coach is needed to finish higher or just go join the CHA where you'll finish higher for sure. It's probably a better conference for you overall anyway.

It's not my format. That format has been around for years. No disrespect taken. I have made last minute arrangements of similar nature so you're mistaken on that statement. It's honestly not that hard. You're overthinking everything. Again it's not my format just was throwing it out there for discussion because I think this league should not have 8 teams in the playoffs. Now that you've mentioned that Ohio State finishes 5th a lot I'd like to revise my suggestion and make it a top 4 teams format although this year they'll probably finish 6th.

 

[Puckdrop14]

Re: WCHA Thread V

Nobody cares about Ohio State anyway so don't worry about it too much. The fact that you've been in the same approximate spot each year maybe indicates a new coach is needed to finish higher or just go join the CHA where you'll finish higher for sure. It's probably a better conference for you overall anyway.

It's not my format. That format has been around for years. No disrespect taken. I have made last minute arrangements of similar nature so you're mistaken on that statement. It's honestly not that hard. You're overthinking everything. Again it's not my format just was throwing it out there for discussion because I think this league should not have 8 teams in the playoffs. Now that you've mentioned that Ohio State finishes 5th a lot I'd like to revise my suggestion and make it a top 4 teams format although this year they'll probably finish 6th.

Please do not forget to submit your candidates for "Poor taste post of the Month" for the month of February. My submission is above!

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: WCHA Thread V

Nobody cares about Ohio State anyway so don't worry about it too much. The fact that you've been in the same approximate spot each year maybe indicates a new coach is needed to finish higher or just go join the CHA where you'll finish higher for sure. It's probably a better conference for you overall anyway.

The CHA has its selling points. Also, I have no problem with the playful jabs. But quite honestly when your team is already a member of the top league, taking a step down -- even to something good -- is generally a bad idea.

It's not my format. That format has been around for years. No disrespect taken. I have made last minute arrangements of similar nature so you're mistaken on that statement. It's honestly not that hard. You're overthinking everything...

If you're talking about last minute arrangements for 1 or 2 rooms, that doesn't count. But if you've really made last minute arrangements for large groups and it's always been easy, more power to you. In that case, I have no problem agreeing to disagree. Oh, and I might be interested in hiring you as my travel agent.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: WCHA Thread V

The WCHA had years where only the top five teams advanced. The format was that the play-in game between #4/#5 occurred on Thursday at the same site. That's what we'd see if the field was cut to five. The game was poorly attended beyond parents, because there was no fan base in the area primed for a Thursday night game...

I remember that too. This variation largely solves the travel issue. But it also introduces the fatigue factor. Whoever advances out the Thursday game will be at a disadvantage the rest of the way as they'll be playing against more rested teams.

...Plus, I don't buy the premise that having #6 advance is a waste of time. The current #6 is Bemidji State, and the only opponent they've yet to beat is #5 OSU. This is an attempt to fix something that isn't broken.

Yup. And because every season is different, you'll never know in advance where the "right" place to draw the line is. As I indicated a few posts ago, it's best just to invite everyone to the party and let the chips -- and trophies -- fall where they may.

 

[ne7minder]

Re: WCHA Thread V

The CHA has its selling points. Also, I have no problem with the playful jabs. But quite honestly when your team is already a member of the top league, taking a step down -- even to something good -- is generally a bad idea.

Michigan & Michigan State both left the WCHA years ago in order to reduce their travel costs (then got a team in Alaska tossed into the league!). It worked out well for them as they seemed to have a lot more success after the move. That said I don't see any particular benefit to the WCHA in losing OSU and I don't imagine it would be all that helpful for the Buckeyes either. I suppose it would allow WCHA teams to add 4 more non-conf games a year which would be nice but I'd rather add a team, be nice if there was something in Mich just for the symmetry of it. But why?

 

[KTDC]

Re: WCHA Thread V

The CHA has its selling points. Also, I have no problem with the playful jabs. But quite honestly when your team is already a member of the top league, taking a step down -- even to something good -- is generally a bad idea.
)

Michigan & Michigan State both left the WCHA years ago in order to reduce their travel costs (then got a team in Alaska tossed into the league!). It worked out well for them as they seemed to have a lot more success after the move. That said I don't see any particular benefit to the WCHA in losing OSU and I don't imagine it would be all that helpful for the Buckeyes either. I suppose it would allow WCHA teams to add 4 more non-conf games a year which would be nice but I'd rather add a team, be nice if there was something in Mich just for the symmetry of it. But why?

I would be against losing OSU from the WCHA. An intriguing aspect of OSU going to the CHA from my point of view: I think Penn State and Ohio State both have something interesting to offer from a recruiting point of view….at this point it's a notch below UM and UW….but appealing to some pretty good players. They could probably win some championships in the short…mid term and probably develop a pretty intense rivalry in a short period of time.

 

[shelfit]

Re: WCHA Thread V

pgb, glad at least you got my friendly jabs. Puckdrop seems to have missed it but that's ok. I do work in group travel so always have to take care of other people's forgetfulness, mistakes, and so on. I suppose I'm quite good at it but I think that's because I have the right attitude for it. I don't get rattled easily with the need to constantly put out fires for others.

Always enjoy your weekly honors posts. Always a good read.

Maybe Shannon Miller would attract higher level recruits to OSU (mostly kidding). I do believe the current recruiting ability of the coach isn't going to get the team higher than 5th place every year (not kidding).

Puckdrop, you haven't done your reading if you think my post should win the "honor" you proposed.

 

[Goon]

Re: WCHA Thread V

Amsley-Benzie and McIntyre Lead UND

 

[Puckdrop14]

Re: WCHA Thread V

pgb, glad at least you got my friendly jabs. Puckdrop seems to have missed it but that's ok. I do work in group travel so always have to take care of other people's forgetfulness, mistakes, and so on. I suppose I'm quite good at it but I think that's because I have the right attitude for it. I don't get rattled easily with the need to constantly put out fires for others.

Always enjoy your weekly honors posts. Always a good read.

Maybe Shannon Miller would attract higher level recruits to OSU (mostly kidding). I do believe the current recruiting ability of the coach isn't going to get the team higher than 5th place every year (not kidding).

Puckdrop, you haven't done your reading if you think my post should win the "honor" you proposed.

Shelfit, I suppose that in time I will get used to your sense of humor‎! As a fan of the WCHA, I like Ohio State in this conference. As far as recruiting goes, I would say that the OSU Coach has done well in recent years. Spring, Sauve, Dunne, Gartner, Boyle, Field, Maltais, Rasmussen were all sought after recruits. I would see them moving up from the 5th spot in the next few years however they will continue to battle UND, UMD and Bemidji. I am not seeing the same calibre recruits at those schools. Time will tell.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: WCHA Thread V

pgb, glad at least you got my friendly jabs. Puckdrop seems to have missed it but that's ok.

In fairness to Puckdrop14, it can be really hard to gauge what's playful and what isn't when you've only got the written text to work with. But I was comfortable that I understood your intent, and am glad I turned out to be correct.

I do work in group travel so always have to take care of other people's forgetfulness, mistakes, and so on. I suppose I'm quite good at it but I think that's because I have the right attitude for it. I don't get rattled easily with the need to constantly put out fires for others.

That's genuinely awesome. You guys certainly earn your pay. Hold your head high; keep on keeping on.

Always enjoy your weekly honors posts. Always a good read.

Much appreciated.

Maybe Shannon Miller would attract higher level recruits to OSU (mostly kidding).

Well, Ohio State's history includes Woody Hayes. We've experienced the whole greatness-with-flaws thing. I'm happy to let another school enjoy the experience this time.

I do believe the current recruiting ability of the coach isn't going to get the team higher than 5th place every year (not kidding).

I see more upside potential. But admittedly it's tough to move up when the top teams are so entrenched. Note that this is true with many college sports, not just Women's Hockey.

 

[KTDC]

Re: WCHA Thread V

In fairness to Puckdrop14, it can be really hard to gauge what's playful and what isn't when you've only got the written text to work with. But I was comfortable that I understood your intent, and am glad I turned out to be correct.

That's genuinely awesome. You guys certainly earn your pay. Hold your head high; keep on keeping on.

Much appreciated.

Well, Ohio State's history includes Woody Hayes. We've experienced the whole greatness-with-flaws thing. I'm happy to let another school enjoy the experience this time.

I see more upside potential. But admittedly it's tough to move up when the top teams are so entrenched. Note that this is true with many college sports, not just Women's Hockey.

Some people think Jincy Dunne is a pretty good recruit

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: WCHA Thread V

Michigan & Michigan State both left the WCHA years ago in order to reduce their travel costs (then got a team in Alaska tossed into the league!). It worked out well for them as they seemed to have a lot more success after the move.

Travel costs were the stated reason, but there's much more to the story. The break-up of the original Men's WCHA was engineered by Don Canham, the Michigan AD at the time. Clearly he was smart enough to realize that rebooting things might improve Michigan's on-ice fortunes. It did, as you've noted. It also greatly improved the CCHA as a whole. But even that's only the tip of the iceberg.

Prior to the breakup, Michigan was pushing a plan that would have split the WCHA into two divisions. The big school division would have include the Wolverines, Spartans, Gophers, Badgers and the Fighting Irish. The small school division would have included the Fighting Sioux, UMD Bulldogs, MTU Huskies, Pioneers & CC Tigers. MN & WI stuck up for the smaller schools and opposed the plan. The plan was defeated. Refusing to accept the verdict, MI took its pucks and went home.

As noted above, the change had widespread benefits. Where there had once been a dominant WCHA and a fledgling CCHA, two excellent leagues emerged. It is tempting to look at that history and say that Women's Hockey might benefit from analogous changes.

But don't stop in the middle of the story. The real culmination of Canham's dream is the Men's B1G Hockey League. Right now that doesn't look like much of a positive. In 10 more years, maybe it will. Who knows? All I can really say the decision-makers need to take a very close look at that history before sending Women's Hockey down a similar path.

That said I don't see any particular benefit to the WCHA in losing OSU and I don't imagine it would be all that helpful for the Buckeyes either.

In the short term, it would be bad for both the WCHA & OSU. The WCHA is on top, as it is. The Buckeyes play the strongest possible schedule, as it is. If it ain't broken, don't try to fix it. There might be long term benefits, but that's something of a Pandora's box -- as suggested above.

Selfishly I would be very opposed to leaving the WCHA. I'm a Buckeye by choice but a native of the Upper Midwest. I was very familiar with the other 7 schools long before the Women's WCHA existed. If we left the league, I would experience it as a personal loss. But I make that comment only to acknowledge I have a bias. Someone else could come along and say it would be meaningful for them to compete against the Pennsylvania schools. And so on.

But biased or no, my position is that OSU's current schedule is pretty much ideal. Guaranteed regular season match-ups with the WCHA schools, non-conference action with Penn State, RMU and Mercyhurst. I suppose that could be flipped around, with the PA schools being the conference match-ups. But then you'd either lose some of the WCHA rivalries, or cancel out the travel savings.

Bottom Line? I really like our 8 team league as it is, and hope it continues on for the foreseeable future.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: WCHA Thread V

Some people think Jincy Dunne is a pretty good recruit

Including me.