Utica Hockey more D1 speculation less Fish/Nubs d-baggery

[Fishman'81]

That one FF is equal to or more than 19 teams from conferences other that AHA and some pretty big historical names on that list like Cornell, Western Mich, Lake State, BG, Clarkson and more. We get it. You dont want to see UU go DI because they will no longer be the bigger fish in the smaller pond, but I believe it will bring a benefit to the entire community of Utica (I am in Utica quite often, several times a year) and have family in the area. I have attended many UC/UU games at the aud. The city loves its hockey and gong to DI will be a positive move.

Well, Cornell is a big name in D-1, but the others you cite simply aren't. I'll bet the farm that 89% of Utica fans couldn't even guess where the Broncos, the Lakers or the Falcons call home... Maybe 98.7%, actually... 23 seasons of talking to people at The Aud has convinced me of that.

Of course, being a big fish in a small pond works for locals. Utica is a "hockey town" only if hockey is affordable, and the team wins. (Just like every other town, in that respect.) NJ didn't leave town because the Utica Devils were drawing as they lost games. That should be obvious. And if the Comets suddenly start to lose, forget about the gate yet again.

I actually took a minute to review the Wiki page re: RIT. Predz can make his case that it was a boost to go D-1, but the evidence is clear: RIT went from a position of D-3 prominence to a complete also-ran in D-1.

Utica has a shot at a D-3 NC where it currently resides. Locals like that possibility, even if nobody outside the City limits gives a crap. That is my point. Going to D-1 and having a snowball's chance at the hardware is tilting at windmills.

 

[JSicedog]

Well, Cornell is a big name in D-1, but the others you cite simply aren't. I'll bet the farm that 89% of Utica fans couldn't even guess where the Broncos, the Lakers or the Falcons call home... Maybe 98.7%, actually... 23 seasons of talking to people at The Aud has convinced me of that.

Of course, being a big fish in a small pond works for locals. Utica is a "hockey town" only if hockey is affordable, and the team wins. (Just like every other town, in that respect.) NJ didn't leave town because the Utica Devils were drawing as they lost games. That should be obvious. And if the Comets suddenly start to lose, forget about the gate yet again.

I actually took a minute to review the Wiki page re: RIT. Predz can make his case that it was a boost to go D-1, but the evidence is clear: RIT went from a position of D-3 prominence to a complete also-ran in D-1.

Utica has a shot at a D-3 NC where it currently resides. Locals like that possibility, even if nobody outside the City limits gives a crap. That is my point. Going to D-1 and having a snowball's chance at the hardware is tilting at windmills.

This comment makes zero sense. Even when the Comets were losing they were still selling out. Vancouver left due to location, not anything to do with the success of the team in Utica. NJ will never leave Utica unless something drastic happens, at the end of the day it is one of the best hockey markets left for an AHL team.

Curious how Comets tickets will be double what UC's will be when they go D1. But for some reason you think fans won't go to UC games if they go .500, but they would still shell out $40 per ticket for Comets games. Not to mention Comets games are painfully boring.

 

[Fishman'81]

This comment makes zero sense. Even when the Comets were losing they were still selling out. Vancouver left due to location, not anything to do with the success of the team in Utica. NJ will never leave Utica unless something drastic happens, at the end of the day it is one of the best hockey markets left for an AHL team.

Curious how Comets tickets will be double what UC's will be when they go D1. But for some reason you think fans won't go to UC games if they go .500, but they would still shell out $40 per ticket for Comets games. Not to mention Comets games are painfully boring.

NJ left Utica in maybe the 90's. It happened. I don't follow AHL hockey, but the haven't Comets been in the mix for years? if you think that Utica fans will shell out for a loser, history suggests otherwise. And that goes for any city.

 

[Fishman'81]

RIT experiment a complete flop?

I vehemently disagree there. The men’s program has been very successful all things considered with the D1 move.

How many AHL and NHL players has RIT had since joining D1? Way more than when they were D3.

The Frozen Four appearance alone made that move worth it. New arena that they pack.

One FF appearance in 23 years doesn't seem to constitute D-! success, especially considering being on the short end of a 9-1 game after the fact.

Not denigrating RIT in any shape or form. Just referencing their experience in terms of what Utica can reasonably expect to happen when and if they make this move. The parallels are strikingly similar.

 

[AMC]

One FF appearance in 23 years doesn't seem to constitute D-! success, especially considering being on the short end of a 9-1 game after the fact.

Not denigrating RIT in any shape or form. Just referencing their experience in terms of what Utica can reasonably expect to happen when and if they make this move. The parallels are strikingly similar.

Just out of curiosity, if "reaching the Frozen Four" is the only measuring stick of success how many appearances would qualify?

Here's the list of schools that are "more successful" than RIT since RIT became NCAA tournament eligible (i.e. have more than 1 Frozen Four appearance): Minnesota, Michigan, Denver, Minnesota State, Minnesota-Duluth, Massachusetts, Notre Dame, Quinnipiac, North Dakota, Boston U., Boston College, St. Cloud, Union, Miami

Here's the list of schools that are "as successful" as RIT: Providence, Ohio State, Harvard, Omaha, Yale, Lowell, Ferris State, Wisconsin, Vermont, Bemidji State

Here's a selected list of schools that are "less succesful" than RIT: Maine, New Hampshire, Northeastern, UConn, Cornell, Colgate, St. Lawrence, Clarkson, Princeton, Penn State (limited sample), Michigan State, Colorado College

 

[IceKnights20]

Utica has a shot at a D-3 NC where it currently resides.

Do they though? Maybe worry about winning that first tournament game before we talk about national championships.

Also, if frozen four appearances is the benchmark, “bottom feeder “ RIT has been to as many frozen fours in D1 as Utica has in D3. So really UU has been just as unsuccessful where they are now.

 

[Fishman'81]

Do they though? Maybe worry about winning that first tournament game before we talk about national championships.

Also, if frozen four appearances is the benchmark, “bottom feeder “ RIT has been to as many frozen fours in D1 as Utica has in D3. So really UU has been just as unsuccessful where they are now.

Yeah. So why make it even more difficult?

 

[bakdraft21]

Ok I never get into these but..........as I tell my daughter who is a volleyball player who is getting recruited by D1-D3,its not ALL about the volleyball, the school is the MOST important issue, few if any of both the hockey and volleyball players are going to make a living playing ball , focus on the school,NOT what division it is........as far as $$$ goes thats another issue for some..........ok as you were..........

 

[Fishman'81]

Just out of curiosity, if "reaching the Frozen Four" is the only measuring stick of success how many appearances would qualify?

Here's the list of schools that are "more successful" than RIT since RIT became NCAA tournament eligible (i.e. have more than 1 Frozen Four appearance): Minnesota, Michigan, Denver, Minnesota State, Minnesota-Duluth, Massachusetts, Notre Dame, Quinnipiac, North Dakota, Boston U., Boston College, St. Cloud, Union, Miami

Here's the list of schools that are "as successful" as RIT: Providence, Ohio State, Harvard, Omaha, Yale, Lowell, Ferris State, Wisconsin, Vermont, Bemidji State

Here's a selected list of schools that are "less succesful" than RIT: Maine, New Hampshire, Northeastern, UConn, Cornell, Colgate, St. Lawrence, Clarkson, Princeton, Penn State (limited sample), Michigan State, Colorado College

*Sigh*

Try to keep up.

This thread is about whether or not Utica going D-1 makes sense in any context. The RIT experience is a cautionary tale in that regard, via any reasonable metric. Garnering the odd AHA AQ, then getting trounced earlier rather that later, isn't a selling point as far as Utica's prospective move goes.

Goddamn people, this isn't all that complicated. The choice is basically to recruit well and compete nationally at the D-3 level, or to enter obscurity at the D-1 level, at least for the next several years. Not akin to solving the riddle of cold fusion.

 

[spwood]

The caveat for this whole discussion is what is driving this move. If Utica wants to move its athletic department to Div II, then moving the hockey team to Div I is collateral damage for the good of the rest of the athletic department. If the hockey team is the reason for moving the rest of the athletic department, then Fish's arguments are valid ones. Not sure which side I would come down on, but I can definitely see his point of view...

 

[JSicedog]

*Sigh*

Try to keep up.

This thread is about whether or not Utica going D-1 makes sense in any context. The RIT experience is a cautionary tale in that regard, via any reasonable metric. Garnering the odd AHA AQ, then getting trounced earlier rather that later, isn't a selling point as far as Utica's prospective move goes.

Goddamn people, this isn't all that complicated. The choice is basically to recruit well and compete nationally at the D-3 level, or to enter obscurity at the D-1 level, at least for the next several years. Not akin to solving the riddle of cold fusion.

Fish I hate to be the bearer of bad news but its going to happen. You are looking at it from strictly the hockey team's point of view. It's happening because the entire university benefits. If the hockey team was the only beneficiary of the move then it wouldn't happen.

This is you worried that you can't attend the Utica vs Kings games where UC wins by double digits.

 

[Lord_Zubin]

Fish I hate to be the bearer of bad news but its going to happen. You are looking at it from strictly the hockey team's point of view. It's happening because the entire university benefits. If the hockey team was the only beneficiary of the move then it wouldn't happen.

This is you worried that you can't attend the Utica vs Kings games where UC wins by double digits.

Now next year he gets to watch them lose to Geneseo, you know a team that was in an actual conference for a long time and can win games in the national tournament

 

[Pioneer247]

The caveat for this whole discussion is what is driving this move. If Utica wants to move its athletic department to Div II, then moving the hockey team to Div I is collateral damage for the good of the rest of the athletic department. If the hockey team is the reason for moving the rest of the athletic department, then Fish's arguments are valid ones. Not sure which side I would come down on, but I can definitely see his point of view...

It's a little of both from what I do know. They had the D2 conference have a spot open which creates a great geographical fit, but they also want to move hockey up because of the reasons both financial and competitively that have already been talked about

 

[Fishman'81]

The caveat for this whole discussion is what is driving this move. If Utica wants to move its athletic department to Div II, then moving the hockey team to Div I is collateral damage for the good of the rest of the athletic department. If the hockey team is the reason for moving the rest of the athletic department, then Fish's arguments are valid ones. Not sure which side I would come down on, but I can definitely see his point of view...

I don't see how any current Utica program would benefit in any respect via going to D-1. Utica sports in general are poor/mediocre to fairly good in D-3, but certainly nowhere near ready to succeed at the next level as a group.

 

[Fishman'81]

Fish I hate to be the bearer of bad news but its going to happen. You are looking at it from strictly the hockey team's point of view. It's happening because the entire university benefits. If the hockey team was the only beneficiary of the move then it wouldn't happen.

This is you worried that you can't attend the Utica vs Kings games where UC wins by double digits.

I hate the blowout games vs. schools who threw away money even by so much as starting a so much D-3 program in the first place. (Kings, et al.) Sounds like Utica is looking at much the same scenario in D-1, but on the short side of the equation.

I only have hearsay to reference, but people tell me that the AHA doesn't have a keen interest in adding another no-name school who will basically be cannon-fodder for the real D-1 programs. If you actually presented some financial facts, instead of settling for simply being The Wizard of Oz*, you might gain some credibility in this discussion.

*(I was gonna say "a dick", but my Mama raised me right.)

 

[JSicedog]

I hate the blowout games vs. schools who threw away money even by so much as starting a so much D-3 program in the first place. (Kings, et al.) Sounds like Utica is looking at much the same scenario in D-1, but on the short side of the equation.

I only have hearsay to reference, but people tell me that the AHA doesn't have a keen interest in adding another no-name school who will basically be cannon-fodder for the real D-1 programs. If you actually presented some financial facts, instead of settling for simply being The Wizard of Oz*, you might gain some credibility in this discussion.

*(I was gonna say "a dick", but my Mama raised me right.)

You are talking to the wrong people then.

 

[Fishman'81]

What this thing boils down to is whether or not Utica wants to be a biggish D-3 fish in a small pond, or a D-1 also-ran. (At least for the foreseeable future).

The AHA has gone 8-20 in the NCAA tournament, even when factoring in the BS AQ's, and an unlikely run by RIT during that one season.

As an old geezer, I'd prefer to see more success in the short term. Pretty sure that there's no way in the world that Utica could possibly make a splash in D-1 anytime soon, if ever.

But, if I was 25 again, and ignored history, maybe I'd be excited about about moving to D-1, even to D-1 Lite... But be careful what you ask for.

 

[lakont55]

With Utica moving to D1 then we surmise all other athletic teams at their school have to be at least D2 ?

 

[Russell Jaslow]

With Utica moving to D1 then we surmise all other athletic teams at their school have to be at least D2 ?

Yes. That's been the plan all along.

 

[Pioneer247]

With Utica moving to D1 then we surmise all other athletic teams at their school have to be at least D2 ?

That has already been approved by the NCAA pending the hockey program getting a D1 conference home