USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

[Hockeydad4two]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

Our books had to be turned into the state registrar before playing in the state tournament so it could be verified. If you made it to Regionals, you had to turn that same book in with the certification from the state in order to play. If you then made nationals, you had to turn same book into a credentials meeting at Nationals. I did see people at Regionals and Nationals reviewing the books so they did take it seriously.

It was a pain to pull together the first time. You definitely needed a 3" binder to hold everything.

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

Was at Marlborough this weekend, primarily to watch U19 games. However, I heard that in reviewing the team books at the Nationals, it was discovered that one of the U16 teams had actually used an illegal player (overage) in the district qualifying tournament - not sure if the player falsified a document or if it was a team decision (hard to imagine it was an innocent mistake - we all know how old we are ). In any case, there was some discussion amongst the USA Hockey officials about whether the team should be disqualified, but in the end the player was removed from play at the Nationals and the team allowed to play on. So USA Hockey takes the qualifying documents pretty seriously (as you would hope).

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

Congrats to the Alliance and other winners.

I would like to gather thoughts/opinions on how much difference people believe there is between Tier I and II level girls team?

Secondly, some teams that go to the National Championships are teams made up of all star groups for lack of a better description. Where a team is selected from several groups of teams. This team qualifies but the players actually play in different associations and teams for their regular (?). This meets all the rules so nothing illegal there, but there are some teams that have only been on team and no other. Is this truly fair?

I'll take a shot at the first question. Based on watching many girls youth hockey games over the years, I would say that generally speaking the top 4 or so Tier 2 teams are probably comparable to the bottom 4 teams at the Tier 1 level and would be competitive against them. Couple of examples to support:
- Three years ago at the first Tier 2 Nationals, MA district sent the runner up (or highest non-Tier 1 qualifier) at the state tournament to the Tier 2 Nationals. The reality is that these were effectively middle of the pack Tier 1 teams (this issue was cleared up after the first Tier 2 Nationals). These teams cleaned up at the Tier 2 Nationals, winning every age group pretty handily.
- This year at the U16 team level, the first Assabet Valley U16 team won the Tier 1 Nationals. The second Assabet Valley U16 team played at the Tier 1 Level at all tournaments they played in and generally were very successful (they beat a couple of the teams at this year's U16 Tier 1 nationals during the season and played several others very close). The third Assabet Valley U16 team is the one that won the MA district Tier 2 U16 tournament and played in TX. They were a middle of the pack team there. So the Tier 2 winner was likely comparable to the second Assabet Valley team that would have been a competitive bottom 4 team at the Tier 1 Nationals.

 

[BlackIce22]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

I'll add to HockeyEast's observations about diff between Tier 1 & 2... I've attended both Tiers for 19's. For this year, just take a look at the scores of the games from quarterfinals and on, in both 19's tournaments this year. There's a wide spread in goals at the Tier 2 level but at Tier 1 all the playoff games were incredibly tight, including 3 OTs. At Marlborough I think any of the 8 teams that broke through could have taken it all if the pucks bounced the right way for them. Tier 2 19's did not seem to have that depth. I hope as the sport grows, that will diminish.

 

[giwan]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

I'll add to HockeyEast's observations about diff between Tier 1 & 2... I've attended both Tiers for 19's. For this year, just take a look at the scores of the games from quarterfinals and on, in both 19's tournaments this year. There's a wide spread in goals at the Tier 2 level but at Tier 1 all the playoff games were incredibly tight, including 3 OTs. At Marlborough I think any of the 8 teams that broke through could have taken it all if the pucks bounced the right way for them. Tier 2 19's did not seem to have that depth. I hope as the sport grows, that will diminish.

I agree there is a larger disparity in scores. ie Team Wyoming Tier II but the choice for a team to go National or not at Tier II is simply a choice once they qualify. Our location only has Tier II available, on occasion the team is able to schedule a Tier I team and the team has had mixed results, wins, losses and ties. The difference is not as high as one may think. It is also not unusual to have for example a 13yr on a 19U because they have no other place to play.

The tournament really only ends up showing the top teams at the end.

As to my 2nd question, I have spoken with parents on a team, Tier II in the tournament that stated the two goalies and others on the team play on different teams during their season. Does that mean an early season of some type, I am not sure, but it is why I mention the quasi all star teams some seem to be made of. This may be much less or not at all an issue at Tier I as typically there is a higher $$$ commitment so I would think the team would stick together.

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

I agree there is a larger disparity in scores. ie Team Wyoming Tier II but the choice for a team to go National or not at Tier II is simply a choice once they qualify. Our location only has Tier II available, on occasion the team is able to schedule a Tier I team and the team has had mixed results, wins, losses and ties. The difference is not as high as one may think. It is also not unusual to have for example a 13yr on a 19U because they have no other place to play.

The tournament really only ends up showing the top teams at the end.

As to my 2nd question, I have spoken with parents on a team, Tier II in the tournament that stated the two goalies and others on the team play on different teams during their season. Does that mean an early season of some type, I am not sure, but it is why I mention the quasi all star teams some seem to be made of. This may be much less or not at all an issue at Tier I as typically there is a higher $$$ commitment so I would think the team would stick together.

Addressing the 2nd question. USA Hockey has very specific guidelines about the team make ups for Tier 1 and Tier 2 teams. Tier 1 U16 and U19 teams can legally recruit from around the country and have an unlimited number of players from out of district (U12 and U14 teams are limited in out of district players to 4 but can recruit nationally). In fact, a team can have no players from its home district if that works for them - the home district is really only a function of where they are registered and play. One U14 player a few years ago from MA played the season for the Anaheim Lady Ducks (that is an extreme case) - commuting all season. So these teams often only play 20-30 games together during the season with players playing on other teams as well. As long as the minimum game requirements mentioned elsewhere in this thread are adhered to, anything goes. For example, at the U16 and U19 levels in MA and NE districts almost all the girls play on their club teams during the Fall, then play on their prep/high school teams in Winter, and then return to their club teams for Nationals in the spring. So these club teams (Assabet, Wizards, Spitfires, Polar Bears, Stars, Northern Lights, etc.) are really all-star teams that have the best prep/high school players on them.

Tier 2 teams have tight out-of-district player restrictions (no more than 4 out of district players) and are not allowed to openly recruit out of district players. So by definition and intent these teams tend to be more localized in their makeup. Despite this, in MA and NE districts these teams are largely still made up of players that play on their club teams during the Fall, then play on their prep/high school teams in Winter, and then return to their club teams for Nationals in the spring - just like the Tier 1's. the only difference is that the Tier 2 girls tend to be either less skilled and couldn't make one of the Tier 1 teams or aren't as dedicated to the sport and willing to put in the kind of commitment that Tier 1 requires. In any case, at both Tiers in NE and MA the players play on multiple teams and the club teams that go to Nationals tend to be all-star like in their make-up.

 

[pakidnyc]

Addressing the 2nd question. USA Hockey has very specific guidelines about the team make ups for Tier 1 and Tier 2 teams. Tier 1 U16 and U19 teams can legally recruit from around the country and have an unlimited number of players from out of district (U12 and U14 teams are limited in out of district players to 4 but can recruit nationally). In fact, a team can have no players from its home district if that works for them - the home district is really only a function of where they are registered and play. One U14 player a few years ago from MA played the season for the Anaheim Lady Ducks (that is an extreme case) - commuting all season. So these teams often only play 20-30 games together during the season with players playing on other teams as well. As long as the minimum game requirements mentioned elsewhere in this thread are adhered to, anything goes. For example, at the U16 and U19 levels in MA and NE districts almost all the girls play on their club teams during the Fall, then play on their prep/high school teams in Winter, and then return to their club teams for Nationals in the spring. So these club teams (Assabet, Wizards, Spitfires, Polar Bears, Stars, Northern Lights, etc.) are really all-star teams that have the best prep/high school players on them.

Tier 2 teams have tight out-of-district player restrictions (no more than 4 out of district players) and are not allowed to openly recruit out of district players. So by definition and intent these teams tend to be more localized in their makeup. Despite this, in MA and NE districts these teams are largely still made up of players that play on their club teams during the Fall, then play on their prep/high school teams in Winter, and then return to their club teams for Nationals in the spring - just like the Tier 1's. the only difference is that the Tier 2 girls tend to be either less skilled and couldn't make one of the Tier 1 teams or aren't as dedicated to the sport and willing to put in the kind of commitment that Tier 1 requires. In any case, at both Tiers in NE and MA the players play on multiple teams and the club teams that go to Nationals tend to be all-star like in their make-up.

Actually the 1st part about out of district players is only partially correct. Right now USAH doesn't dictate the # of out of district players (although there's a proposal on the table for the June annual meeting that would limit it to 4 on every team, period, tier 1, tier 2, all teams). The limitations are currently dictated by each district. Michigan, for example, only allows two out-of-state (their district is their state) players on any team, even u16 and u19 Tier 1.

 

[giwan]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

Tier 2 teams have tight out-of-district player restrictions (no more than 4 out of district players) and are not allowed to openly recruit out of district players. So by definition and intent these teams tend to be more localized in their makeup. Despite this, in MA and NE districts these teams are largely still made up of players that play on their club teams during the Fall, then play on their prep/high school teams in Winter, and then return to their club teams for Nationals in the spring - just like the Tier 1's. the only difference is that the Tier 2 girls tend to be either less skilled and couldn't make one of the Tier 1 teams or aren't as dedicated to the sport and willing to put in the kind of commitment that Tier 1 requires. In any case, at both Tiers in NE and MA the players play on multiple teams and the club teams that go to Nationals tend to be all-star like in their make-up.

AH ok so it depends on what seasons are available to them ie their high school teams, so in a way it is a quasi all star team from a large area.

Though I will argue your point of Tier 1 players being more skilled then Tier 2's as this is a function of time spent on the ice. Being on Tier 2 also has to deal with proximity to a Tier 1 program, possibly money and can be commitment if there is an available Tier 1 team of course leaving politics to the side. I also believe though do not have the data to back it up that typically Tier 1 teams are made up of girls closer in age range then Tier 2 teams. Hence they would have more time on the ice making them more skilled.

I'm a strong believer in the 10K hr rule.

 

[pakidnyc]

AH ok so it depends on what seasons are available to them ie their high school teams, so in a way it is a quasi all star team from a large area.

Though I will argue your point of Tier 1 players being more skilled then Tier 2's as this is a function of time spent on the ice. Being on Tier 2 also has to deal with proximity to a Tier 1 program, possibly money and can be commitment if there is an available Tier 1 team of course leaving politics to the side. I also believe though do not have the data to back it up that typically Tier 1 teams are made up of girls closer in age range then Tier 2 teams. Hence they would have more time on the ice making them more skilled.

I'm a strong believer in the 10K hr rule.

The major difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is speed. There are skilled players at tier 2 but if you watch a tier 2 game, it is much much slower than tier 1. That's not to say that you can't have tier 1 level girls on tier 2 teams but as a whole the speed of tier 1 is much faster. There are very few tier 2 girls that can jump to NCAA d1 due to the lack of playing at that speed.

 

[giwan]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

The major difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is speed. There are skilled players at tier 2 but if you watch a tier 2 game, it is much much slower than tier 1. That's not to say that you can't have tier 1 level girls on tier 2 teams but as a whole the speed of tier 1 is much faster. There are very few tier 2 girls that can jump to NCAA d1 due to the lack of playing at that speed.

Speed is a skill nothing more. Skill comes from ice time and purposeful practice. Jumping to D1 has more to do with recruiting practices and money available.

 

[Hux]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

Speed is a skill nothing more. Skill comes from ice time and purposeful practice. Jumping to D1 has more to do with recruiting practices and money available.

Ah, no. Speed, and skill get you to D1. No speed, no D1(usually), regardless of skill.

 

[giwan]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

Ah, no. Speed, and skill get you to D1. No speed, no D1(usually), regardless of skill.

Missing the point that SPEED is a skill, it is/can be learned.

 

[Cali]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

Missing the point that SPEED is a skill, it is/can be learned.

Can't agree with that one. Skating technique is a skill that can be learned and proper skating technique will definitely increase your speed but if you are slow to begin with you will only improve your speed slightly. The saying "you can't teach speed" applies to hockey as well.

 

[Hux]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

Missing the point that SPEED is a skill, it is/can be learned.

Last time I checked a great deal of it was genetic.

 

[giwan]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

Last time I checked a great deal of it was genetic.

I suggest you recheck

 

[ARM]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

To a certain extent, I'd say both sides are correct. Skaters do get faster through hard work, just like runners do. But the fast kids improve their speed as well, so all else being equal, the D-I programs would rather go after the speedier players. Obviously, there are other attributes like size or great hands that can sway teams to accept less in the raw speed department.

 

[96IllinoisDad]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

I think the point pakidnyc was making was that the "speed of the game", not skating speed, hurts girls who play Tier II. There are plenty of girls at Tier II who are as "fast" as girls who play Tier I - especially in a straight line - but these girls are not playing a "fast game", and this will most likely hurt most of them when they try to move to the next level.

Here is the way I explained it to a friend of mine who went with me to watch some Tier I prospects (boys) who were playing at at an Elite Tier II level. In particular, there were two kids that were lighting it up and both were very "Fast" skaters. My friend was impressed. I told him watch them and when you see a play develop slowly say to yourself 3 times what you think they should be doing. For example, when a player was open up the wing - "make the pass, make the pass, make the pass", or "take the shot, take the shot, take the shot", or "go pressure, go pressure, go pressure". Invariably, the players did the right thing, but they almost always did it on the 3rd statement. At Tier II level, the pass was still open and the shot was still there on #3, but at Tier I it will not be. At Elite Tier I, the play isn't usually there at #2 either. In other words, the player must see the play and react much faster at Tier I than Tier II. At DI, you are moving up another level - it gets even faster.

A tier II player having played years at a "slower game" hasn't been forced to "play fast". Does that mean a Tier II player can't succeed at Tier I? No, kids can make it, but far far more can't make the adjustment.

 

[Hockeydad4two]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

I like your description 96IllinoisDad. I tell people its like baseball. When you move up an age group, the ball goes faster. The pitching is faster. The speed at which the ball comes off the bat is faster. The players have to react faster.

Same thing happens from high school to college to pro. Basic skills are there, but the speed of the game gets faster. So the players anticipation/reaction have to be faster.

That doesn't mean someone who works hard can't learn. But a college coach isn't going to spend too much time/effort in teaching someone when they can get someone who's been there/done that.

 

[giwan]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

I like your description 96IllinoisDad. I tell people its like baseball. When you move up an age group, the ball goes faster. The pitching is faster. The speed at which the ball comes off the bat is faster. The players have to react faster. Same thing happens from high school to college to pro. Basic skills are there, but the speed of the game gets faster. So the players anticipation/reaction have to be faster. That doesn't mean someone who works hard can't learn. But a college coach isn't going to spend too much time/effort in teaching someone when they can get someone who's been there/done that.

Playing devils advocate are you then saying that all of MN HS Girls hockey (or other HS girls hockey) plays at a Tier 1 level?

Add to that, since every step up is faster no one could advance because it's faster.

Take this to another level. The NHL, and specifically I will choose a couple of players off the Red Wings. Pavel was playing in a lower level league, passed by many many teams and what is the result? Same issue was with Zetterburg.

 

[canadahockey26]

Re: USA Hockey Nationals - Tier I - Marlborough, MA

Not all of MN high school girls get scouted to D1. It's mostly only the ones playing on the top teams and then some goalies. The top MN high schools certainly are D1. Plus many of these girls are used to playing high level boys hockey which is faster than the girls' game.