UNH Wildcats 2018-2019: Souza the Opportunity or Louza the Opportunity

[After the Whistle]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2018-2019: Souza the Opportunity or Louza the Opportunity

Anyone else hear about the proposed changes to the ice surface? Apparently the refrigeration system has failed and is slated for replacement. Rumor is, as part of the refeer project, the ice surface will be reduce to NHL dimensions, in addition to the installation of new and more “giving” glass.

I hadn't heard either of those. After they cut the corners about 7-10 years ago there was talk of that. Not sure how they would add to the seats. while it would certainly allow for another row or 2 it wouldn't have the slope and I would think that would be very expensive. Perhaps a large walkway such as Mack or RPI. Ugh! More importantly, I feel they tell Mike in the interviews that they come for the big ice as it fits their game.

 

[d.gerry]

Not sure how they would add to the seats. while it would certainly allow for another row or 2 it wouldn't have the slope and I would think that would be very expensive. Perhaps a large walkway such as Mack or RPI. Ugh! More importantly, I feel they tell Mike in the interviews that they come for the big ice as it fits their game.

Not sure how the seats would work either, not a fan of having a walkway down there at all. As far as recruiting goes, I feel the large ice is as much a negative as it is a postive as top recruits have pro aspirations and want to play and develop on an NHL sized surface..

 

[Snively65]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2018-2019: Souza the Opportunity or Louza the Opportunity

It's his ultimate plan to finally rid Hockey East of the UConn Huskies...and I would agree he has this all planned out.

Just like he ridded the HEA of NICC?

 

[BlackI]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2018-2019: Souza the Opportunity or Louza the Opportunity

Not sure how the seats would work either, not a fan of having a walkway down there at all. As far as recruiting goes, I feel the large ice is as much a negative as it is a postive as top recruits have pro aspirations and want to play and develop on an NHL sized surface..

Concrete isn't that expensive. Lift seats, buy some more. Only cost about a million in rehab.

 

[d.gerry]

Concrete isn't that expensive. Lift seats, buy some more. Only cost about a million in rehab.

Talking about site lines, slope/elevation of seats, etc., but I appreciate your expertise nonetheless.

 

[BlackI]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2018-2019: Souza the Opportunity or Louza the Opportunity

Talking about site lines, slope/elevation of seats, etc., but I appreciate your expertise nonetheless.

Lol. Any time old buddy. Just remember 3-2 in OT and the popcorn flying.

 

[Ned Braden]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2018-2019: Souza the Opportunity or Louza the Opportunity

Not sure how the seats would work either, not a fan of having a walkway down there at all. As far as recruiting goes, I feel the large ice is as much a negative as it is a postive as top recruits have pro aspirations and want to play and develop on an NHL sized surface..

This would be a very big deal if true. I certainly think it would be a net positive for recruiting.

 

[chickod]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2018-2019: Souza the Opportunity or Louza the Opportunity

So this is totally off the wall (and I'm not a structural engineer), but I assume they have to rip out most of the underlying infrastructure anyway, right? So instead of "raising" multiple rows of seats, why couldn't they just "lower" the rink surface and add two rows of seats in front so that none of the existing seats need to be touched? You're not going to leave the existing refrigeration system "in place" if you are completely resizing the rink anyway, so (and I've only been to the Whitt a few times) unless there is something structural beneath the ice surface (besides the ground), doesn't this seem more feasible and cost-effective?

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2018-2019: Souza the Opportunity or Louza the Opportunity

Wow … look how close we came to not having Luce to kick around anymore ...

https://www.courant.com/sports/college/hc-sp-uconn-hockey-mike-cavanaugh-column-20181001-story.html

As with anything that comes out of Luce's mouth, take it with a grain (chunk?) of salt. 50% fiction, at least.

Taken on faith, it looks like a lot of those other schools dodged a serious bullet in not hiring my hero.

Of course, there are the two obligatory references to Jerry York, and a few more general ones to BC.

Y'know, just in case folks get the crazy idea that he isn't getting the job done at UConn.

 

[d.gerry]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2018-2019: Souza the Opportunity or Louza the Opportunity

So this is totally off the wall (and I'm not a structural engineer), but I assume they have to rip out most of the underlying infrastructure anyway, right? So instead of "raising" multiple rows of seats, why couldn't they just "lower" the rink surface and add two rows of seats in front so that none of the existing seats need to be touched? You're not going to leave the existing refrigeration system "in place" if you are completely resizing the rink anyway, so (and I've only been to the Whitt a few times) unless there is something structural beneath the ice surface (besides the ground), doesn't this seem more feasible and cost-effective?

Makes sense to me however, I'm sure cost will play the final role into what gets done. I'm not sure if there is a final plan in place at this time, or if it is still in the design phase. Wonder what the typical expected life span of a refrigeration system is. Is the needed replacement typical for rinks this age, or has it prematurely failed.

Anyone headed down to catch the Friday night game? I'm thinking about however, traffic on the way down is a bit of a deterrent!

 

[jeteye1717]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2018-2019: Souza the Opportunity or Louza the Opportunity

So this is totally off the wall (and I'm not a structural engineer), but I assume they have to rip out most of the underlying infrastructure anyway, right? So instead of "raising" multiple rows of seats, why couldn't they just "lower" the rink surface and add two rows of seats in front so that none of the existing seats need to be touched? You're not going to leave the existing refrigeration system "in place" if you are completely resizing the rink anyway, so (and I've only been to the Whitt a few times) unless there is something structural beneath the ice surface (besides the ground), doesn't this seem more feasible and cost-effective?

DISCLAIMER: I'm not a structural engineer either, but that won't keep me from agreeing with chickod that lowering the ice surface (vs. raising/reconfiguring the existing seating bowl) makes the most sense *IF* they're dead set on shrinking the rink. A few of us long-time fans were discussing this very thing during between-period breaks of the BC game a few weekends ago, and the consensus seemed to be it would be the most minimally disruptive option vis a vis the existing infrastructure. We guesstimated (as chickod did) that such a reconfiguration would add 2 additional seating rows between the present on-the-glass Row A and the newly lowered ice surface, roughly 500-550 new seats as chair backs along the sides and bench seats on the ends in keeping with the current setup. That would increase the sell-out capacity to ~ 7K, which, let's be honest, there's little hope of filling until the team starts winning consistently again. Lowering the ice also means the existing corner access points for the zambonis, trucks hauling equipment/chairs/etc. for non-ice events such as concerts, commencement, etc. would then be elevated some 4-5 off the floor, necessitating ramp cuts into the existing concrete floor in those areas, much as curb cuts are often retrofitted into existing sidewalks for handicapped accessibility. It's all theoretically possible, I'd think, but someone brought up a rumor they'd heard around the time the Whitt first opened that underlying the rink is an enormous outcropping of dense ledge (it's not called the Granite State for nothing and that's why locker rooms, offices, etc. were only built under the east side of the seating bowl - it was simply too involved/expensive to blast away all that rock on the west side of the site. Would that preclude digging down another 10 feet or so to lay new refrigeration pipes and a new floor? Whomever is floating this idea likely knows (where's Victor Aziz, retired UNH Director of Facilities Planning, when you need him?), but if indeed it's an issue it may help explain why lowering the ice surface is simply not a cost-effective option. Sigh ... UNH *can* get it right when it puts its mind to it - the latest addition to old Snively and the replacement of the WPA-era outdoor pool IMHO was done fantastically well - so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that *if* this project happens it's done properly, with appropriate sympathy for the old and forward-thinking for the new ... FWIW, I think the enormous new banner spanning the length of the Whitt lobby is a perfect example of that kind of thinking, vintage photos of hockey in Snively merged with contemporary photos of hockey at the Whitt, the old blending seamlessly with the new. We can only hope that ethos prevails in whatever plans are afoot for upgrading the Whitt itself going forward ...

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2018-2019: Souza the Opportunity or Louza the Opportunity

Makes sense to me however, I'm sure cost will play the final role into what gets done. I'm not sure if there is a final plan in place at this time, or if it is still in the design phase. Wonder what the typical expected life span of a refrigeration system is. Is the needed replacement typical for rinks this age, or has it prematurely failed.

Anyone headed down to catch the Friday night game? I'm thinking about however, traffic on the way down is a bit of a deterrent!

Still 'on the fence' if I can get out of dodge by 3. We always go to this game; stay at the Hilton where you can just walk right into the XL. Hate it that the game's on a Friday night but what are you gonna do...Haven't see the 'Cats win at the XL so could this be the breakthrough

Interesting convo about restructuring the 'Whitt. I know Mike Souza has talked about having a weight room, player lounge...think the price tag he mentioned was 5 mil...

 

[d.gerry]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2018-2019: Souza the Opportunity or Louza the Opportunity

so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that *if* this project happens it's done properly, with appropriate sympathy for the old and forward-thinking for the new ...

Not that it really matters, but I'm not sure I get your drift in regards to "appropriate sympathy for the old"? As far as *if* this project happens, not really an if, something is going to happen, or "Lake Whittemore" will take on a whole new meaning. A quick search in the good old Google machine and you can find where it is in the works. The real unknown is what the overall scope of the project will be.

 

[Snively65]

DISCLAIMER: I'm not a structural engineer either, but that won't keep me from agreeing with chickod that lowering the ice surface (vs. raising/reconfiguring the existing seating bowl) makes the most sense *IF* they're dead set on shrinking the rink. A few of us long-time fans were discussing this very thing during between-period breaks of the BC game a few weekends ago, and the consensus seemed to be it would be the most minimally disruptive option vis a vis the existing infrastructure. We guesstimated (as chickod did) that such a reconfiguration would add 2 additional seating rows between the present on-the-glass Row A and the newly lowered ice surface, roughly 500-550 new seats as chair backs along the sides and bench seats on the ends in keeping with the current setup. That would increase the sell-out capacity to ~ 7K, which, let's be honest, there's little hope of filling until the team starts winning consistently again. Lowering the ice also means the existing corner access points for the zambonis, trucks hauling equipment/chairs/etc. for non-ice events such as concerts, commencement, etc. would then be elevated some 4-5 off the floor, necessitating ramp cuts into the existing concrete floor in those areas, much as curb cuts are often retrofitted into existing sidewalks for handicapped accessibility. It's all theoretically possible, I'd think, but someone brought up a rumor they'd heard around the time the Whitt first opened that underlying the rink is an enormous outcropping of dense ledge (it's not called the Granite State for nothing and that's why locker rooms, offices, etc. were only built under the east side of the seating bowl - it was simply too involved/expensive to blast away all that rock on the west side of the site. Would that preclude digging down another 10 feet or so to lay new refrigeration pipes and a new floor? Whomever is floating this idea likely knows (where's Victor Aziz, retired UNH Director of Facilities Planning, when you need him?), but if indeed it's an issue it may help explain why lowering the ice surface is simply not a cost-effective option. Sigh ... UNH *can* get it right when it puts its mind to it - the latest addition to old Snively and the replacement of the WPA-era outdoor pool IMHO was done fantastically well - so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that *if* this project happens it's done properly, with appropriate sympathy for the old and forward-thinking for the new ... FWIW, I think the enormous new banner spanning the length of the Whitt lobby is a perfect example of that kind of thinking, vintage photos of hockey in Snively merged with contemporary photos of hockey at the Whitt, the old blending seamlessly with the new. We can only hope that ethos prevails in whatever plans are afoot for upgrading the Whitt itself going forward ...

Only the width might be narrowed, right? If the ice stays the same length, there would not be room for any new bench seats in the end zones. If indeed ExeterGranodiorite (the name of the bedrock that underlies Durham) did not get blasted for the initial construction, I do not think that it can be blasted now without doing serious damage to the concrete infrastructure (disclaimer: I am not a structural engineer either). But, not sure that limitation precludes lowering the ice surface a few inches, unless the chilling pipes lie directly on top of the bedrock underneath part of the present ice surface, which I think would have been very bad engineering (or something done by a lowest cost bidder?).

 

[bakchk20]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2018-2019: Souza the Opportunity or Louza the Opportunity

Anyone else hear about the proposed changes to the ice surface? Apparently the refrigeration system has failed and is slated for replacement. Rumor is, as part of the refeer project, the ice surface will be reduced to NHL dimensions, in addition to the installation of new and more “giving” glass.

Dear Lord, please let this rumor become reality!! Been waiting a long time...

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2018-2019: Souza the Opportunity or Louza the Opportunity

Dear Lord, please let this rumor become reality!! Been waiting a long time...

Even with my 5 years of fandom, can you (or someone else) outline for me the reasons we should get rid of our Olympic sheet of ice and go for something less? I have a few ideas about why that's a good idea...but would like to know more specifics...has it really been that big a detriment towards UNH success? (I ask this sincerely...so be nice )

 

[d.gerry]

Even with my 5 years of fandom, can you (or someone else) outline for me the reasons we should get rid of our Olympic sheet of ice and go for something less? I have a few ideas about why that's a good idea...but would like to know more specifics...has it really been that big a detriment towards UNH success? (I ask this sincerely...so be nice )

I believe the biggest factor would be recruiting, top prospects have NHL aspirations and would most likely want to play on NHL size ice. Second, HE playoffs are played on NHL ice, most NCAA tournament games are played on NHL sized ice, and the Frozen Four is played in an NHL rink. That’s my take.

 

[Dan]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2018-2019: Souza the Opportunity or Louza the Opportunity

Even with my 5 years of fandom, can you (or someone else) outline for me the reasons we should get rid of our Olympic sheet of ice and go for something less? I have a few ideas about why that's a good idea...but would like to know more specifics...has it really been that big a detriment towards UNH success? (I ask this sincerely...so be nice )

No, its never been a detriment - but it has been an excuse since the day they finished building it. First it was a hinderance to UNH's ability to win in the post-season and claim a National Title - though that never stopped Minnesota or Wisconsin from winning the big one. Or CC, St. Cloud, etc from winning a lot of post-season games. Now its a direct recruiting weakness - though the big ice hasn't stopped Minny, Wisko, Umass or St. Cloud from crushing the recruiting trail (or CC from dramatically improving one coach to the next). Top prospects commit to Olympic rinks all the time and if BC/BU/ND built Olympic surfaces tomorrow it wouldn't slow down the recruit parades one iota as long as the current coaches were in place...

I think everyone should be moving TO the big ice - I prefer the skill game and as players get bigger and strong space is lacking on NHL rinks. The reality is everyone is turning their back on big ice and many colleges have already shrunk their surfaces...

If this is what UNH wants to do, they have the money to do it and they wont half-*** the job then fine - go ahead and do it. The idea that Olympic ice hurt the program has always been an excuse - it easily helped recruiting just as often as it may have hurt (JVR chose New Hampshire FOR the big ice, and its ability in his mind to prep him for pro-hockey, as did many others). The reality is, that ice size was probably never really a factor in most kid's minds. Rather it was an added benefit after committing to or away from UNH for a player who had much more relevant concerns like money, location, coaches, etc. Certainly it was not nearly as big a factor as the skills of those doing the recruiting. I sure hope I don't hear the idea that this is some much needed magic bullet for recruiting out of the mouths of anyone close to the program...

 

[Dan]

Certainly not a magic bulletin, but if not for recruiting and/or overall competitiveness why would they be considering it? I’m assuming this is coming from the coaching staff, or why else would they do it? We can all agree, it’s not needed for the added seats.

They can want it for any reason - and they can even believe it will help. But if they believe they are hindered by The Whitt and size of the ice surface in terms of on-ice/recruiting competitiveness that would be a huge red flag...

UNH has everything it needs to recruit and ice competitive teams. They don't need to shrink the rink. They don't need a lounge or a weight room. They don't need to be closer to Boston. That stuff would all be nice. The only potential problem with not having that stuff, however, is if the recruiters believe not having that stuff is a problem...

If they can't recruit to an Olympic sized Whitt (or win on one) than they can't recruit to an NHL sized Whitt (or win on one). The best way to get the bells and whistles the players deserve is to prove you can win with all of the advantages you already have. And if they can recruit and win then - while having a lounge or a weight room and an NHL sized rink, might be nice - they wouldn't really need it...

To win and recruit in college sports you need two things - scholarship money and coaches who can develop and sell. That's it. College hockey proves this theory again and again. Perhaps more so than any other sport. Smaller schools, with less, that make no excuses out perform big schools all the time. The ones with a constant answer for why, what and where they lack are the ones left behind...

All the advantages didn't do much for Ohio State until they found the right coach/recruiter. They're not doing as much for North Dakota now as they did under Hakstol or Blaise. St Cloud wins and recruits on a dated Olympic rink. Bowling Green's arena is a pit and the school nearly cut hockey a few years ago but half of the assistant tandem that built Miami has them suddenly winning as many games as anyone the last few years. You can either do the job or you can't.

Time will tell with Souza. Not rink size.

 

[d.gerry]

They can want it for any reason - and they can even believe it will help. But if they believe they are hindered by The Whitt and size of the ice surface in terms of on-ice/recruiting competitiveness that would be a huge red flag...

UNH has everything it needs to recruit and ice competitive teams. They don't need to shrink the rink. They don't need a lounge or a weight room. They don't need to be closer to Boston. That stuff would all be nice. The only potential problem with not having that stuff, however, is if the recruiters believe not having that stuff is a problem...

If they can't recruit to an Olympic sized Whitt (or win on one) than they can't recruit to an NHL sized Whitt (or win on one). The best way to get the bells and whistles the players deserve is to prove you can win with all of the advantages you already have. And if they can recruit and win then - while having a lounge or a weight room and an NHL sized rink, might be nice - they wouldn't really need it...

To win and recruit in college sports you need two things - scholarship money and coaches who can develop and sell. That's it. College hockey proves this theory again and again. Perhaps more so than any other sport. Smaller schools, with less, that make no excuses out perform big schools all the time. The ones with a constant answer for why, what and where they lack are the ones left behind...

All the advantages didn't do much for Ohio State until they found the right coach/recruiter. They're not doing as much for North Dakota now as they did under Hakstol or Blaise. St Cloud wins and recruits on a dated Olympic rink. Bowling Green's arena is a pit and the school nearly cut hockey a few years ago but half of the assistant tandem that built Miami has them suddenly winning as many games as anyone the last few years. You can either do the job or you can't.

Time will tell with Souza. Not rink size.

I agree with most of what you say, just seems they have wanted to shrink the ice for years now, and they obviously have some reasons why. Would be a good question for Coach Souza. BTW, accidentally deleted my post trying to edit my magic “bulletin”.