HockeyRef
Well-known member
So agree...more W's were possible.
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UNH Wildcats 2017/2018 - Umile's Last Stand - The Grand Finale
- Thread starter Chuck Murray
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So agree...more W's were possible.
Darius
Go 'cats!
Re: UNH Wildcats 2017/2018 - Umile's Last Stand - The Grand Finale
They are not mutually exclusive. You can be both. I am disappointed that we do not have a bye, will not be at home in the 1st round, will not be at the Garden and not in the NCAA tournament. I am greatly disappointed by our play and record. I still love the team, players and people around the players and team. I love being on campus, at the Whitt, listening to the band, hearing the students cheer and it ain't bad when we compete for a bit and get a lead. I am taking the attitude that we will be back in the mix and getting there will be fun.
HockeyRef
Well-known member
Love this! I too have the same sentiments about the entire package and that's what should be a part of the deal. Have made so many new connections friends etc. Thanks for reminding me what the big picture is; appreciate it!
Again, chickod's initial point was that the players might deserve some of the blame for lack of effort. I don't believe that to be the case. In talking about players performance I argued that they're giving what could be expected of them. You and JB are not in the minority - you've just pointed out other areas where the coaches have failed in addition to recruiting. That's fair. I agree - ive been at the forefront of blaming them for a lot. Recruiting, development, game management, lineup decisions, etc. this season is on the coaches...
Yes, a better coach could probably coax a few more wins out of this roster and finish 8th instead of last - but if you want the program to take a big jump and return to the top if HE than talent is the issue.
No those other rosters are not far ahead of UNH - but they are better. We tend to overvalue the 'top' players on UNHs roster. First because they are OUR best players and second because they've been forced into top roles and thus produce better than their talent-equivalent counterparts at other schools. Additionally, another critical difference between UNH and other rosters is the bottom - which at UNH is currently filled with DIIl types.
UNH has zero pure scoring talent on its roster. They have a solid D - that seems to stand out simply because it's not the dumpster fire it's been. The goaltending is bad. The depth is not DI caliber. Recruiting or not getting the most out of them - it is what it is.
I saw this season coming because I knew the talent level AND the coaches. You knew going in who was coaching the team and what you were going to get. The coach was Umile - not someone better. So why the surprise that he didn't adjust or maximize talent? He hasn't for years...
The recruiting reared its ugly head against yesterday - I still think Robinson is the best on the roster, but he was not good yesterday. The first two goals were long point shots with good views that went right threw him. I can blame them for missing on a bonafide #1 in each of their last three tries and you can blame them for not getting MR into more games or coaching him up more so that he's sharper. We'd both be right...
The adults in the room are at fault...
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Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Re: UNH Wildcats 2017/2018 - Umile's Last Stand - The Grand Finale
Totally agree. Ultimately, whether we call it "legacy" or "600" or the "NRN" ... we're basically talking about a 3 year vanity project for a guy who made a lot of people happy for many years with a successful program, but lacked the self-awareness to know when it was either time to change his approach, or get out of the way. Sad.
I want to disagree ... but reading the tea leaves 'Watcher style, it's hard not to come to this conclusion.
Hard to disagree with much here, either. Minor point though - Luce hired him when I'm sure he had dozens of other options, so yeah, he had to see something potential-wise there. But more than that, he bumped Souza up a pay grade a month or so before he left. He didn't have to do that - certainly not just two years into the job. So potential would seem to have translated into accomplishment/production to warrant that bump. And while I've always
when Luce gets a head of steam up with the habitual puffery, his post-departure comments (which originally included the snarky comment about him being Umile's "nephew" IIRC?) seemed to suggest he was at least disappointed to have lost Souza to his alma mater, depriving him of a well-developed branch of the "Luce Canaan coaching shrub". I'm thinking that all paints a picture that's drastically at odds with the Souza we've seen since, underestimating (badly) his task at hand.
That's the biggest fear I've got going forward. Maybe the new Pres will call an end to the BS35+infinity regime shortly, but as long as he can point to the success of Football, I think we're stuck with him (sadly).
Umile has a lot to be proud of (and rightfully so) for almost everything in the first half of his career, including the fact they built the place largely as a result of the uptick in the program in his first few seasons on the job. So he fell into some traps later in his career. Pride goeth before the fall etc. The AD has (not so coincidentally) presided over the second half of Umile's career, and not only watched his flagship program slide consistently into the crapper, but has done diddly-squat to reverse the fortunes of the Hoops program, which once upon a time also used to play its home games in The Whitt (with the original Boston Garden's final parquet floor). He can't even claim to have hired the coach (McDonnell) who is basically keeping him in a job these days. So yeah, that guy shouldn't sleep at night.
Totally agree. Ultimately, whether we call it "legacy" or "600" or the "NRN" ... we're basically talking about a 3 year vanity project for a guy who made a lot of people happy for many years with a successful program, but lacked the self-awareness to know when it was either time to change his approach, or get out of the way. Sad.
I want to disagree ... but reading the tea leaves 'Watcher style, it's hard not to come to this conclusion.
Hard to disagree with much here, either. Minor point though - Luce hired him when I'm sure he had dozens of other options, so yeah, he had to see something potential-wise there. But more than that, he bumped Souza up a pay grade a month or so before he left. He didn't have to do that - certainly not just two years into the job. So potential would seem to have translated into accomplishment/production to warrant that bump. And while I've always
when Luce gets a head of steam up with the habitual puffery, his post-departure comments (which originally included the snarky comment about him being Umile's "nephew" IIRC?) seemed to suggest he was at least disappointed to have lost Souza to his alma mater, depriving him of a well-developed branch of the "Luce Canaan coaching shrub". I'm thinking that all paints a picture that's drastically at odds with the Souza we've seen since, underestimating (badly) his task at hand. That's the biggest fear I've got going forward. Maybe the new Pres will call an end to the BS35+infinity regime shortly, but as long as he can point to the success of Football, I think we're stuck with him (sadly).
Umile has a lot to be proud of (and rightfully so) for almost everything in the first half of his career, including the fact they built the place largely as a result of the uptick in the program in his first few seasons on the job. So he fell into some traps later in his career. Pride goeth before the fall etc. The AD has (not so coincidentally) presided over the second half of Umile's career, and not only watched his flagship program slide consistently into the crapper, but has done diddly-squat to reverse the fortunes of the Hoops program, which once upon a time also used to play its home games in The Whitt (with the original Boston Garden's final parquet floor). He can't even claim to have hired the coach (McDonnell) who is basically keeping him in a job these days. So yeah, that guy shouldn't sleep at night.
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Re: UNH Wildcats 2017/2018 - Umile's Last Stand - The Grand Finale
If the player does not like the coach, the player can leave (or not come in the first place).
At this level, the coach's job is to win games, not to be buddies with his players.
It's nice if both happen (win and friends) but not necessary. Did I guess right?
If the player does not like the coach, the player can leave (or not come in the first place).
At this level, the coach's job is to win games, not to be buddies with his players.
It's nice if both happen (win and friends) but not necessary. Did I guess right?
At least in games I see guys skating hard and with good attitudes despite the losing (no idea how they react in practice). Do you see players not doing that - if so what are you seeing? I see players trying - whether they're happy or not (and I bet they aren't). I'm hard on Tirone's production. He always gives it his best. The players are just limited...
The coaches are the ones who sometimes appear to check out, who easily have more to give in terms of production in a number of areas and who have put the program in this position...
Darius
Go 'cats!
Re: UNH Wildcats 2017/2018 - Umile's Last Stand - The Grand Finale
My answer guess is that the responsibility is on both player and coach. Figure it out and make the best of it.
True. Unless you never met him which seems to be a possibility.If the player does not like the coach, the player can leave (or not come in the first place).
At this level, the coach's job is to win games, not to be buddies with his players.
It's nice if both happen (win and friends) but not necessary. Did I guess right?
My answer guess is that the responsibility is on both player and coach. Figure it out and make the best of it.
Greg Ambrose
Registered User
Re: UNH Wildcats 2017/2018 - Umile's Last Stand - The Grand Finale
Chiming in again. The first point to make is that when you lose as many one goal games as UNH did this year, when you have so many ties, it is not lack of effort. Every player at this level desperately wants to win. They’ve competed at every level and I have no doubt that the guys on the team are giving it their all now. But when both teams want the game and go at equally as hard, talent is going to will out. The two games that resonated with me were home losses to UConn and Maine. In both games they had two goal third period leads. But when the opposition turned it up a notch or two, UNH could not keep up, the forwards especially. Painful to watch, but not unexpected.
The second point I want to make is about Scarano. He’s never been a guy who demands excellence,,otherwise why would he allow the basketball program to continue to be a joke long after the late Gerry Friel left. There are successful programs at UNH but has he hired any of the coaches that lead these teams? Someone pointed out that McDonnell was there long before Scarano but you can say the same thing about Jim Boulanger who has been the track coach for decades. Skiing, volleyball, gymnastics come to mind as well. Marty is what an old friend of mine would call a face man. Looks good, can give a good bs speech, courteous to fans who interact with him, and can be tough when he wants to get rid of someone (McCloskey). But demanding accountability, progress and success? Not so much. With hockey I can tell you that Umile has always driven the train. He won his power battle with Chapman, shmoozed Judy Ray who negotiated the lifetime deal as she was headed out the door, and never had to worry about Marty, who came on board at the peak of hockey mania, rode the wave and, at this point,,probably doesn’t know much more about recruiting and coaching hockey players than he did 18 years ago. Achieving excellence comes because the people in charge expect it, a notion in short supply at UNH.
Chiming in again. The first point to make is that when you lose as many one goal games as UNH did this year, when you have so many ties, it is not lack of effort. Every player at this level desperately wants to win. They’ve competed at every level and I have no doubt that the guys on the team are giving it their all now. But when both teams want the game and go at equally as hard, talent is going to will out. The two games that resonated with me were home losses to UConn and Maine. In both games they had two goal third period leads. But when the opposition turned it up a notch or two, UNH could not keep up, the forwards especially. Painful to watch, but not unexpected.
The second point I want to make is about Scarano. He’s never been a guy who demands excellence,,otherwise why would he allow the basketball program to continue to be a joke long after the late Gerry Friel left. There are successful programs at UNH but has he hired any of the coaches that lead these teams? Someone pointed out that McDonnell was there long before Scarano but you can say the same thing about Jim Boulanger who has been the track coach for decades. Skiing, volleyball, gymnastics come to mind as well. Marty is what an old friend of mine would call a face man. Looks good, can give a good bs speech, courteous to fans who interact with him, and can be tough when he wants to get rid of someone (McCloskey). But demanding accountability, progress and success? Not so much. With hockey I can tell you that Umile has always driven the train. He won his power battle with Chapman, shmoozed Judy Ray who negotiated the lifetime deal as she was headed out the door, and never had to worry about Marty, who came on board at the peak of hockey mania, rode the wave and, at this point,,probably doesn’t know much more about recruiting and coaching hockey players than he did 18 years ago. Achieving excellence comes because the people in charge expect it, a notion in short supply at UNH.
Exactly Greg - I have not double checked but, I believe in 17 years Scarano has hired two W lacrosse coaches, the W hockey coach, the M soccer coach and the M basketball coach. So five coaches in 17 years. Additionally, I don't believe he has fired anyone unless there were 'legal' concerns. He has set a low bar of expectation across the department and that's why they've gotten a lot of poor performances. No one is accountable to success...
That's why the Souza evaluation and leash are a real concern...
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deltabravo62
Active member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2017/2018 - Umile's Last Stand - The Grand Finale
Another piece I would add to this is that for the most part these players are still auditioning for their chance at playing this game professionally outside of college. I would not think that these guys would be tanking out for ANY reason, especially the guys who are not drafted and are not likely to get another chance to prove that they can be of use to a professional team in any level beyond college. Their talent level is what it is, but this team is seemingly without any direction on or off the ice. There does not seem to be an aggressive recruiting plan, there has not been any improvement in game planning, and it all ties together into the 17 game stretch that we have been watching. A team that does not care or is not trying does not come out of the gate with force the way they have the last two games and a team without a great level of talent gives those games away. So I agree with the consensus that we seem to be arriving at which is a limited level of talent that is not being coached up and as a result are frustrated, 'Umiliated, and can not get out of the rut.
Both the lack of available talent and the lack of a system that works with the players you have falls on the coaching staff. If Umile is the decision maker for the program as it has been stated then the buck stops at him. If that is the case he deserves every bit of the anger and criticism thrown his way for allowing the program to fall this far into the abyss. For the administration and those "inside the bubble" who think things are all fine and dandy (and I have been told you read this forum), they are not. I expect to hear plenty about how optimistic you are for next season, without some major upgrades on and behind the bench you will be lying to yourselves and everyone you tell that to. The man you have been celebrating all this year (I know I have not been) has lead us to this point. Do not be surprised when your STH renewals hit an all time low next year, almost everyone I know who is one has no plans of renewing. Your plan has failed, now it is time to get to work to fix it, good luck marketing this team next year...
I know this is where all the "negative people" go to air out their grievances. I do not want to have to be this way with this team. I want to see them do well, I want to be excited to go to games, I want to feel like we have a chance to win any game we play. That optimism is gone, and without proof of a way forward, that feeling is not coming back anytime soon.
Another piece I would add to this is that for the most part these players are still auditioning for their chance at playing this game professionally outside of college. I would not think that these guys would be tanking out for ANY reason, especially the guys who are not drafted and are not likely to get another chance to prove that they can be of use to a professional team in any level beyond college. Their talent level is what it is, but this team is seemingly without any direction on or off the ice. There does not seem to be an aggressive recruiting plan, there has not been any improvement in game planning, and it all ties together into the 17 game stretch that we have been watching. A team that does not care or is not trying does not come out of the gate with force the way they have the last two games and a team without a great level of talent gives those games away. So I agree with the consensus that we seem to be arriving at which is a limited level of talent that is not being coached up and as a result are frustrated, 'Umiliated, and can not get out of the rut.
Both the lack of available talent and the lack of a system that works with the players you have falls on the coaching staff. If Umile is the decision maker for the program as it has been stated then the buck stops at him. If that is the case he deserves every bit of the anger and criticism thrown his way for allowing the program to fall this far into the abyss. For the administration and those "inside the bubble" who think things are all fine and dandy (and I have been told you read this forum), they are not. I expect to hear plenty about how optimistic you are for next season, without some major upgrades on and behind the bench you will be lying to yourselves and everyone you tell that to. The man you have been celebrating all this year (I know I have not been) has lead us to this point. Do not be surprised when your STH renewals hit an all time low next year, almost everyone I know who is one has no plans of renewing. Your plan has failed, now it is time to get to work to fix it, good luck marketing this team next year...
I know this is where all the "negative people" go to air out their grievances. I do not want to have to be this way with this team. I want to see them do well, I want to be excited to go to games, I want to feel like we have a chance to win any game we play. That optimism is gone, and without proof of a way forward, that feeling is not coming back anytime soon.
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Greg Ambrose
Registered User
Re: UNH Wildcats 2017/2018 - Umile's Last Stand - The Grand Finale
I’m sure that those on the inside read this forum daily. Back when Dave Lassonde was an assistant, he admitted that for awhile he thought I was Watcher. Wonder who he would think Dan is. But,seriously, I think it’s good that these people read this forum. They can take what we have to say in one of two ways. They can classify us as outliers, the negativity types, who just want to complain. Or they could (should) say that, hey these are people who care deeply about the program, want it to succeed, so maybe we should take what they have to say to heart. I have been an ardent fan of the program since the first time I went to Snively 47+ years ago.. I considered Charlie Holt a friend. Anyone who knows me knows that I have had, at times, an irrational devotion to the program. Some of the most enjoyable experiences I have ever had in my life have been because of UNH Hockey. My wife and I have made lifelong friendships through our devotion to UNH Hockey. There is a part of me that is just miffed that these things are being stolen from me. And, btw, I am not alone in feeling this way. Anybody on the inside who reads this, you know who my friends are, you know my travel companions. They think like I do, trust me.
I’m sure that those on the inside read this forum daily. Back when Dave Lassonde was an assistant, he admitted that for awhile he thought I was Watcher. Wonder who he would think Dan is. But,seriously, I think it’s good that these people read this forum. They can take what we have to say in one of two ways. They can classify us as outliers, the negativity types, who just want to complain. Or they could (should) say that, hey these are people who care deeply about the program, want it to succeed, so maybe we should take what they have to say to heart. I have been an ardent fan of the program since the first time I went to Snively 47+ years ago.. I considered Charlie Holt a friend. Anyone who knows me knows that I have had, at times, an irrational devotion to the program. Some of the most enjoyable experiences I have ever had in my life have been because of UNH Hockey. My wife and I have made lifelong friendships through our devotion to UNH Hockey. There is a part of me that is just miffed that these things are being stolen from me. And, btw, I am not alone in feeling this way. Anybody on the inside who reads this, you know who my friends are, you know my travel companions. They think like I do, trust me.
HockeyRef
Well-known member
Trust me they read it...
Wonderful heartfelt post, Greg. Although I have followed the team since I was a little kid growing up in Durham in the 1950s when I watched games at the outdoor Batchelder rink, I think that I first met you at the pre-game UNH gathering at the 2003 semi-finals FF in Buffalo. You told me that I should join FOH and this board, but I was fine with the HockeyL list serve at the time. Although I do not write out detailed posts here from my iPhone, I have enjoyed the long, in-depth, thoughtful posts by many here. If the UNH admin does not take these threads seriously, then they and we are indeed doomed, I think.
walrus
Wind up workin' in a gas station
Re: UNH Wildcats 2017/2018 - Umile's Last Stand - The Grand Finale
Its amazing that Maine fans said the exact same things when Tim took the program downhill. Exactly. Tim considered them Outliers or in his words "5 internet nut cases"
Its amazing that Maine fans said the exact same things when Tim took the program downhill. Exactly. Tim considered them Outliers or in his words "5 internet nut cases"
HockeyRef
Well-known member
And make no mistake about it these same conversations are being held all over the 'Whitt not just here...Also it takes all kinds of posts length not important to make a community!!! Always enjoy yours and so many others!
Re: UNH Wildcats 2017/2018 - Umile's Last Stand - The Grand Finale
Nice post Greg, and as HockeyRef and others know, Admin. does follow this forum.....unfortunately, they take the former position and feel that any criticism isn’t constructive.....during the McCloskey incident, we were asked why we would air our dirty laundry out in public.....as if putting our version of events, and in most cases the truth, wasn’t a good thing....only their version of how UNH should be was correct.......it was very disheartening let alone leaving most of the FOWH folks to abandon their UNH hockey traditions.....in reading thru this thread, everyone can see how both UNH hockey programs have dissolved under Scarano’s appointment......maybe one day the University Trustees will get around to wondering why they don’t read of any UNH varsity sport in the national headlines any more, rather than just being thankful there are no issues to be dealt with.....all is copecetic in Durham.
Nice post Greg, and as HockeyRef and others know, Admin. does follow this forum.....unfortunately, they take the former position and feel that any criticism isn’t constructive.....during the McCloskey incident, we were asked why we would air our dirty laundry out in public.....as if putting our version of events, and in most cases the truth, wasn’t a good thing....only their version of how UNH should be was correct.......it was very disheartening let alone leaving most of the FOWH folks to abandon their UNH hockey traditions.....in reading thru this thread, everyone can see how both UNH hockey programs have dissolved under Scarano’s appointment......maybe one day the University Trustees will get around to wondering why they don’t read of any UNH varsity sport in the national headlines any more, rather than just being thankful there are no issues to be dealt with.....all is copecetic in Durham.
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