I know right? Guess Aerman has more insight into the literary side of things than I gave him credit for hahaha! CARPE DIEM gang!
Just want Walt to get credit for his line.
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UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations
- Thread starter Chuck Murray
- Start date
- Status
Just want Walt to get credit for his line.
HockeyRef
Well-known member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations
He certainly deserves credit! Love the pic of him in the classroom (movie). So rah! Mr. Whitman! Aerman you rock.
Just want Walt to get credit for his line.
He certainly deserves credit! Love the pic of him in the classroom (movie). So rah! Mr. Whitman! Aerman you rock.
bomberhockey
Registered User
Well said, couldn't have spoken for myself any better. Thanks Watcher!
To quote a local QB, "Just do your job!"
Greg Ambrose
Registered User
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations
Too bad you didn't respond to my post:
"My criticism of Bomber's post is based on his statement that, if Umile had the good of the program at heart, he would have resigned 5-7 years ago. Watcher, I don't know where you work or whether or not you are the boss, but the thought that a guy in his late 50's, as successful as he has been would look in the mirror and unilaterally say, "you know, i can't do the job anymore, the guys on USCHO are right, I should quit" is beyond ludicrous. Seven years ago was 2009, the year after they were a number one seed in Colorado Springs. The following three years they made the NCAA regional final. Whether or not you think that these are all hollow accomplishments, the fact is that Umile didn't and neither did the those in a position to fire him."
I'm not sure who appointed you and Watcher to be the all knowing gods of UNH Hockey. Really, step back a minute and think of what the two of you are saying. That Umile was so bad, so incompetent, that he should have recognized these "facts" and voluntarily resigned his position. Sorry, but nothing but grade school logic. Perhaps you guys are thinking of applying for a job as Marty's assistants? I am sure he would value your input.
Just a thought. Are Bomber and Watcher the same person? Not out of the realm of possibility. Multiple non de plumes have been used before on this forum.
Too bad you didn't respond to my post:
"My criticism of Bomber's post is based on his statement that, if Umile had the good of the program at heart, he would have resigned 5-7 years ago. Watcher, I don't know where you work or whether or not you are the boss, but the thought that a guy in his late 50's, as successful as he has been would look in the mirror and unilaterally say, "you know, i can't do the job anymore, the guys on USCHO are right, I should quit" is beyond ludicrous. Seven years ago was 2009, the year after they were a number one seed in Colorado Springs. The following three years they made the NCAA regional final. Whether or not you think that these are all hollow accomplishments, the fact is that Umile didn't and neither did the those in a position to fire him."
I'm not sure who appointed you and Watcher to be the all knowing gods of UNH Hockey. Really, step back a minute and think of what the two of you are saying. That Umile was so bad, so incompetent, that he should have recognized these "facts" and voluntarily resigned his position. Sorry, but nothing but grade school logic. Perhaps you guys are thinking of applying for a job as Marty's assistants? I am sure he would value your input.
Just a thought. Are Bomber and Watcher the same person? Not out of the realm of possibility. Multiple non de plumes have been used before on this forum.
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Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations
Greg
I do not believe they are one and the same and I do agree with you that it is crazy to believe Umile has packed it in for a paycheck the past 7 years. I believe that they are different as one was complimentary of Scott Borek and the other brutalized him. I like Scott Borek and know he was a great at talent evaluation and recruiting, but we did lose some top level recruits starting around 2008.
Most do not remember the unbelievable recruiting class for 2009-2010. The only top recruit that actually came was John Henrion. Ryan B and Matt W (roommates at Cushing) wanted to play together and both committed to UNH. UNH admissions denied Matt W (Matt had a different childhood than most elite hockey players) over a low grade one term in Chemistry in prep school. He did not have the background for the class but UNH made him take it and he worked so hard that his final average was higher than most posters grades in high school Chemistry. The one poor grade lead to denying his admission. When he was denied, shortly thereafter Ryan B decommitted and went to the Q. The team then tried to get another very high level recruit from British Columbia (Cam R). Cam did not get through UNH admissions due to too few years of foreign language in high school. I believe he had signed up for the fall in BC to take the course, but he was denied and committed to St Cloud State. I do not know Joey L's story as it seemed they asked for one year deferral and he went to a western school.
If we had the top line that was not admitted for 3-4 years with Goumas, Sorkin, Moses as second line, it would be likely that we would have continued our annual quest for NCAA Championships. We lost Johnny G and our defense coach due to admissions deciding that having the best player in college hockey with good grades was not important enough to have a decision within 2-3 days. We had one of the top defense recruits in the country this year , who is now at UConn due to admissions office at UNH. It seems better ranked schools take the students our admissions do not without blinking an eye. I am all for rigorous coursework and high graduation rates, but it is a very competitive landscape for recruits and they are not all as smart as Brad Flaishans .
Thank you Greg for defending Coach Umile as it is just unfair to state that he has packed it in for a paycheck. I could understand the argument that Umile should retire sooner than his contract end-date, though I do not agree with the posters. I cannot buy the idea that he has not done a good job over the past 7 years. He has done a very good job and as I have said before that everyone believes they are the best at what they do and I believe Umile is better at his than most of us. We are not in the same fishbowl as Coach Umile. I hope he wins a championship over the next few years for his legacy and for the die-hard fans like Greg A (40+ years diehard fan) and others that we have seen everywhere over the past few decades of Umile's tenure. Though we do not travel as well as we did 5+ years ago, most schools do have a premium ticket price for UNH games. I am confident our incoming class next year will help us turn the corner for years to come.
Greg
I do not believe they are one and the same and I do agree with you that it is crazy to believe Umile has packed it in for a paycheck the past 7 years. I believe that they are different as one was complimentary of Scott Borek and the other brutalized him. I like Scott Borek and know he was a great at talent evaluation and recruiting, but we did lose some top level recruits starting around 2008.
Most do not remember the unbelievable recruiting class for 2009-2010. The only top recruit that actually came was John Henrion. Ryan B and Matt W (roommates at Cushing) wanted to play together and both committed to UNH. UNH admissions denied Matt W (Matt had a different childhood than most elite hockey players) over a low grade one term in Chemistry in prep school. He did not have the background for the class but UNH made him take it and he worked so hard that his final average was higher than most posters grades in high school Chemistry. The one poor grade lead to denying his admission. When he was denied, shortly thereafter Ryan B decommitted and went to the Q. The team then tried to get another very high level recruit from British Columbia (Cam R). Cam did not get through UNH admissions due to too few years of foreign language in high school. I believe he had signed up for the fall in BC to take the course, but he was denied and committed to St Cloud State. I do not know Joey L's story as it seemed they asked for one year deferral and he went to a western school.
If we had the top line that was not admitted for 3-4 years with Goumas, Sorkin, Moses as second line, it would be likely that we would have continued our annual quest for NCAA Championships. We lost Johnny G and our defense coach due to admissions deciding that having the best player in college hockey with good grades was not important enough to have a decision within 2-3 days. We had one of the top defense recruits in the country this year , who is now at UConn due to admissions office at UNH. It seems better ranked schools take the students our admissions do not without blinking an eye. I am all for rigorous coursework and high graduation rates, but it is a very competitive landscape for recruits and they are not all as smart as Brad Flaishans .
Thank you Greg for defending Coach Umile as it is just unfair to state that he has packed it in for a paycheck. I could understand the argument that Umile should retire sooner than his contract end-date, though I do not agree with the posters. I cannot buy the idea that he has not done a good job over the past 7 years. He has done a very good job and as I have said before that everyone believes they are the best at what they do and I believe Umile is better at his than most of us. We are not in the same fishbowl as Coach Umile. I hope he wins a championship over the next few years for his legacy and for the die-hard fans like Greg A (40+ years diehard fan) and others that we have seen everywhere over the past few decades of Umile's tenure. Though we do not travel as well as we did 5+ years ago, most schools do have a premium ticket price for UNH games. I am confident our incoming class next year will help us turn the corner for years to come.
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations
Nobody is arguing that he should have recognized that in himself and should have walked away. There are certainly some who wished he had, and feel that would have been best for the program. I think that is all Watcher and Bomber are saying. Of course, all coaches believe in themselves and their abilities. They're all ego driven.
Still, I think its 100% fair to question whether or not Umile lost the attention to detail and energy to meet all of the responsibilities inherent of the successful coach. It happens to most great coaches, its a tireless job and becomes more and more difficult as you get older. It seemed to happen to Holt. And it has certainly cost Umile, because he has clearly not been as involved as he was as a young coach. 1932's post is the perfect example, if Coach was completely invested, how could they possibly have made the Matt White and Cam Reid mistakes again with future classes. Its a clear lack of attention to detail, in my opinion. That certainly doesn't mean Umile would agree...
I don't think their argument that Umile lost his edge or their wishes that Umile had walked away conflict with your point that he wouldn't have felt that way or walked away on his own. Its my opinion that all three of you are 100% correct (so why we're arguing about it is over my head)...
Nobody is arguing that he should have recognized that in himself and should have walked away. There are certainly some who wished he had, and feel that would have been best for the program. I think that is all Watcher and Bomber are saying. Of course, all coaches believe in themselves and their abilities. They're all ego driven.
Still, I think its 100% fair to question whether or not Umile lost the attention to detail and energy to meet all of the responsibilities inherent of the successful coach. It happens to most great coaches, its a tireless job and becomes more and more difficult as you get older. It seemed to happen to Holt. And it has certainly cost Umile, because he has clearly not been as involved as he was as a young coach. 1932's post is the perfect example, if Coach was completely invested, how could they possibly have made the Matt White and Cam Reid mistakes again with future classes. Its a clear lack of attention to detail, in my opinion. That certainly doesn't mean Umile would agree...
I don't think their argument that Umile lost his edge or their wishes that Umile had walked away conflict with your point that he wouldn't have felt that way or walked away on his own. Its my opinion that all three of you are 100% correct (so why we're arguing about it is over my head)...
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NCAA watcher
Registered User
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations
Greg and UNH1932,
I'll start with the full caveat that I am not a fan of rigid thinkers, and therefore tend not to be as favorable to coaches like Umile/Julien compared to approachable, adaptable coaches like Holt/York.
With that out of the way, I'm under no belief that Umile should have walked away five or seven years ago. I'm also not suggesting Umile should today say "I can't do this anymore." As you say, his results did not warrant any of those conclusions. (And I'm certainly not advocating that a smooth transition to Borek anywhere along the line was the solution -- I'm pretty sure that distinguishes me from Bomber
)
I am suggesting, though, that Umile's recruiting and engagement in the recruiting process is a critical part of a program's success. It seems to be one Umile never cared much for, other than his own Boston suburb background. From stories he was unapproachable even to freshmen during their early days. From 1988 to 1993 there was a pretty noticeable drop from the Kullen 87 and 88 classes. After that, McCloskey actually brought in talent from out west, and it seems Umile was contended to leave recruiting to others, and it worked for him as the program rose.
What I do lament is a lack of self awareness of strengths and weaknesses, hich tends to come from guys with Umile's background (perhaps less savy in organizations), and an over reliance on cronyism (again, which often comes with guys from Umile's background). Starting from that 2009 period UNH 1932 mentions, there were multiple red flags in that area, but zero accountability or oversight. And when there was a chance to make a change in this area, when Lassonde left, Umile's choice was a crony, Tortorella, and he deferred to Borek all aspects of recruiting (or more accurately, interfacing with the young players.
As his "boss" Marty should have sat down and analyze mistakes and figure out why players are not taking the classes they need, and why they felt disenfranchised by a request that they defer (Laleggia, Vecchione). Umile never appeared to have pushed himself to do this work too, or get someone else to do so.
UNH 1932, I'm not saying he consciously slacked off "for a paycheck." As you see, I think much of it is just who Umile always has been. But when an area is a consistent and of late fatal to NCAA hopes weakness, you would think Umile would dedicate more effort to that area. From what I hear from Bomber, and confirmed by what we see when Borek left, that area remained a huge weakness, with the top recruits having no allegiance to Umile. If, as you acknowledge, this was an issue going back to 2009, why was there no effort to rectify it?
Greg and UNH1932,
I'll start with the full caveat that I am not a fan of rigid thinkers, and therefore tend not to be as favorable to coaches like Umile/Julien compared to approachable, adaptable coaches like Holt/York.
With that out of the way, I'm under no belief that Umile should have walked away five or seven years ago. I'm also not suggesting Umile should today say "I can't do this anymore." As you say, his results did not warrant any of those conclusions. (And I'm certainly not advocating that a smooth transition to Borek anywhere along the line was the solution -- I'm pretty sure that distinguishes me from Bomber
)I am suggesting, though, that Umile's recruiting and engagement in the recruiting process is a critical part of a program's success. It seems to be one Umile never cared much for, other than his own Boston suburb background. From stories he was unapproachable even to freshmen during their early days. From 1988 to 1993 there was a pretty noticeable drop from the Kullen 87 and 88 classes. After that, McCloskey actually brought in talent from out west, and it seems Umile was contended to leave recruiting to others, and it worked for him as the program rose.
What I do lament is a lack of self awareness of strengths and weaknesses, hich tends to come from guys with Umile's background (perhaps less savy in organizations), and an over reliance on cronyism (again, which often comes with guys from Umile's background). Starting from that 2009 period UNH 1932 mentions, there were multiple red flags in that area, but zero accountability or oversight. And when there was a chance to make a change in this area, when Lassonde left, Umile's choice was a crony, Tortorella, and he deferred to Borek all aspects of recruiting (or more accurately, interfacing with the young players.
As his "boss" Marty should have sat down and analyze mistakes and figure out why players are not taking the classes they need, and why they felt disenfranchised by a request that they defer (Laleggia, Vecchione). Umile never appeared to have pushed himself to do this work too, or get someone else to do so.
UNH 1932, I'm not saying he consciously slacked off "for a paycheck." As you see, I think much of it is just who Umile always has been. But when an area is a consistent and of late fatal to NCAA hopes weakness, you would think Umile would dedicate more effort to that area. From what I hear from Bomber, and confirmed by what we see when Borek left, that area remained a huge weakness, with the top recruits having no allegiance to Umile. If, as you acknowledge, this was an issue going back to 2009, why was there no effort to rectify it?
Donald Trumph
New member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations
Greg A, UNH1932, bomber, NCAAWatcher, thanks for pointing out the obvious! I don't know who you are or what you do or even if you are real UNH Hockey fans but you just need to go away! Nobody gives a chit what you think or what you say. You are a bunch of rigid thinking blowhards.
Just win baby we're on to Lowell!
Greg A, UNH1932, bomber, NCAAWatcher, thanks for pointing out the obvious! I don't know who you are or what you do or even if you are real UNH Hockey fans but you just need to go away! Nobody gives a chit what you think or what you say. You are a bunch of rigid thinking blowhards.
Just win baby we're on to Lowell!
Darius
Go 'cats!
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations
College Hockey: UNH's top guns complemented nicely by Correale:
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20160108/SPORTS22/160109358#sthash.7uipJbJA.dpuf
Umile said sophomore forward Shane Eiserman won’t play tonight because of a bruised bone in his foot. Eiserman was hit in the foot by a puck during last week’s 5-4 triumph over Maine and wasn’t in the lineup for either of UNH’s last two games. Eiserman has seven points (all assists) in 16 games this season.
College Hockey: UNH's top guns complemented nicely by Correale:
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20160108/SPORTS22/160109358#sthash.7uipJbJA.dpuf
Umile said sophomore forward Shane Eiserman won’t play tonight because of a bruised bone in his foot. Eiserman was hit in the foot by a puck during last week’s 5-4 triumph over Maine and wasn’t in the lineup for either of UNH’s last two games. Eiserman has seven points (all assists) in 16 games this season.
HockeyRef
Well-known member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations
Nice article about Dan...he does a great job out there! Tonight will be a good test to see just what we can do with a team like UML...Go 'Cats!!!!
Nice article about Dan...he does a great job out there! Tonight will be a good test to see just what we can do with a team like UML...Go 'Cats!!!!
HockeyRef
Well-known member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations
Hope we are ready for the task! USCHO guys have us squeeking it out tonight...I'm feeling hopeful. Stolen from the UML board:
http://www.lowellsun.com/sports/ci_29359105/unhs-top-line-looms-hawks
Predictions anyone?
Hope we are ready for the task! USCHO guys have us squeeking it out tonight...I'm feeling hopeful. Stolen from the UML board:
http://www.lowellsun.com/sports/ci_29359105/unhs-top-line-looms-hawks
Predictions anyone?
Darius
Go 'cats!
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations
UML has lost 3 of 4 is ranked 4th nationally in team D, 19th in O. The 'cats are 51 D/6 O. Boyle is 10th nationally in GAA (1.826), 9th in save % (.936), 4th in minutes played and tied for 4th in shut outs. I predict the 'cats "other" 3 lines better bring it and make UML work hard.
UML has lost 3 of 4 is ranked 4th nationally in team D, 19th in O. The 'cats are 51 D/6 O. Boyle is 10th nationally in GAA (1.826), 9th in save % (.936), 4th in minutes played and tied for 4th in shut outs. I predict the 'cats "other" 3 lines better bring it and make UML work hard.
HockeyRef
Well-known member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations
Good points and don't you know that Norm Bazin has them prepared!
Good points and don't you know that Norm Bazin has them prepared!
Darius
Go 'cats!
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations
... to knock Pots, TK and Correale on their butts.
HockeyRef
Well-known member
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations
That's what I'm afraid of...
Pots esp. has taken a few cheap shots in the last couple of games. DT too. But wait, we're playing UML...
That's what I'm afraid of...
Pots esp. has taken a few cheap shots in the last couple of games. DT too. But wait, we're playing UML...
Chuck Murray
WIS & Effingwoods Hockey Almanac
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations
Looks like I missed all the fun yesterday. Some excellent points all around. In a moment of personal enlightenment on this issue, I'm going to align myself with Dan's post, which led me to alter my view of the Coach Umile issue somewhat (and it's arguably been coming anyway) ...
OK ... up until now, I guess I was just being a sucker for a storybook ending, and while I'm still hoping for that to happen, the discussion and the observations of 'watcher and bomber have caused me to step back a bit. Yes, I still am in favor of Coach Umile finishing up his UNH commitment, and I won't go back and say that I think he should have retired 5-7 years ago. Maybe he has had his issues with the postseason, and getting his best teams over the final hump - HE Tourney (should have won more than two) and of course the NCAA's.
But he has performed his job consistently better than anyone else ever has at UNH, and better than over 90% of his D-1 competitors in what has been a longer-than-expected run. What, 2-3 losing seasons in over 25 years now? No small feat.
But I guess the thing that's dawned on me during this latest discussion is, perhaps Coach Umile isn't nearly as invested in making that storybook happening come true as I thought/assumed he was? You folks know me, and I'm sure the whole "obsessed Captain Ahab in manic search of the white whale" motif is something you've seen me write a few times in the past. But the idea that in the aftermath of the recruiting "losing streak" of nearly the last decade ... "Captain Ahab" wouldn't have been more personally invested in correcting the wrongs that led to the constant stream of de-commits, near-misses, and what-if's that have plagued this program in recent years??
That's unthinkable, unless one of two things applies: one, and more benignly, Coach has a true "blind spot". He honestly thinks this is not his job, or maybe he thinks it's something he doesn't do well enough, or it's something he simply trusts others with? I don't think you necessarily have to be the slickest salesman on the circuit (i.e. the Walshy type?) to do enough to connect with an incoming recruit, and we've seen a guy like Coach York (the anti-Walshy) who clearly has pulled this off with genuine sincerity. My limited interactions with and observations of Coach Umile make me think this can't be all that much of a "reach" for him. He's a likeable and honest guy.
The alternate scenario is that, "Hey, I really don't want to work that hard, or I can't work that hard lest I alienate other aspects of my life. It's not all about UNH Hockey. Why should I have to do everything?" And from the anecdotes shared by 'watcher and others, this may be the way he's always been, and he's been content to be the head coach on ice, while relying 100% on guys like McCloskey and Borek to produce the talent. In which case, he is not the obsessed "Captain Ahab" willing to do everything and anything to attain what's been an ever-elusive quest.
And if this latter scenario is the case ... then if Coach Umile (a D-1 coach for going on almost 30 years) doesn't care deeply enough to put it all on the line for his program - even if it's just connecting with incoming recruits on a very basic but genuine level - the argument is out there that "why should WE care so much for him to succeed in the end?"
So my admiration of the guy and his ability to run a clean, respectable program while cranking out entertaining and consistently winning hockey remains. But IF the plain fact of the matter is that Coach either knows he has a blind spot and is afraid/unwilling to address it OR just draws the line at what he can or will do to get his program to the pinnacle, then he can't claim to be "all in".
And IF he's not "all in" (emphasis added), then he drops a notch or two in my eyes. JMHO.
Looks like I missed all the fun yesterday. Some excellent points all around. In a moment of personal enlightenment on this issue, I'm going to align myself with Dan's post, which led me to alter my view of the Coach Umile issue somewhat (and it's arguably been coming anyway) ...
OK ... up until now, I guess I was just being a sucker for a storybook ending, and while I'm still hoping for that to happen, the discussion and the observations of 'watcher and bomber have caused me to step back a bit. Yes, I still am in favor of Coach Umile finishing up his UNH commitment, and I won't go back and say that I think he should have retired 5-7 years ago. Maybe he has had his issues with the postseason, and getting his best teams over the final hump - HE Tourney (should have won more than two) and of course the NCAA's.
But he has performed his job consistently better than anyone else ever has at UNH, and better than over 90% of his D-1 competitors in what has been a longer-than-expected run. What, 2-3 losing seasons in over 25 years now? No small feat.But I guess the thing that's dawned on me during this latest discussion is, perhaps Coach Umile isn't nearly as invested in making that storybook happening come true as I thought/assumed he was? You folks know me, and I'm sure the whole "obsessed Captain Ahab in manic search of the white whale" motif is something you've seen me write a few times in the past. But the idea that in the aftermath of the recruiting "losing streak" of nearly the last decade ... "Captain Ahab" wouldn't have been more personally invested in correcting the wrongs that led to the constant stream of de-commits, near-misses, and what-if's that have plagued this program in recent years??
That's unthinkable, unless one of two things applies: one, and more benignly, Coach has a true "blind spot". He honestly thinks this is not his job, or maybe he thinks it's something he doesn't do well enough, or it's something he simply trusts others with? I don't think you necessarily have to be the slickest salesman on the circuit (i.e. the Walshy type?) to do enough to connect with an incoming recruit, and we've seen a guy like Coach York (the anti-Walshy) who clearly has pulled this off with genuine sincerity. My limited interactions with and observations of Coach Umile make me think this can't be all that much of a "reach" for him. He's a likeable and honest guy.
The alternate scenario is that, "Hey, I really don't want to work that hard, or I can't work that hard lest I alienate other aspects of my life. It's not all about UNH Hockey. Why should I have to do everything?" And from the anecdotes shared by 'watcher and others, this may be the way he's always been, and he's been content to be the head coach on ice, while relying 100% on guys like McCloskey and Borek to produce the talent. In which case, he is not the obsessed "Captain Ahab" willing to do everything and anything to attain what's been an ever-elusive quest.
And if this latter scenario is the case ... then if Coach Umile (a D-1 coach for going on almost 30 years) doesn't care deeply enough to put it all on the line for his program - even if it's just connecting with incoming recruits on a very basic but genuine level - the argument is out there that "why should WE care so much for him to succeed in the end?"
So my admiration of the guy and his ability to run a clean, respectable program while cranking out entertaining and consistently winning hockey remains. But IF the plain fact of the matter is that Coach either knows he has a blind spot and is afraid/unwilling to address it OR just draws the line at what he can or will do to get his program to the pinnacle, then he can't claim to be "all in".
And IF he's not "all in" (emphasis added), then he drops a notch or two in my eyes. JMHO.
Greg Ambrose
Registered User
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations
Where do I start? I didn't go back and look at it by am 100% sure that you admonished Umile for not leaving earlier. Words, to that effect that, if he had the good of the program at heart he would have left. As a long time admirer of Charlie Holt, both as a person and as a coach, I appreciate the reference to him in the same category as York. But I will remind you that Charlie was disengaged in his later years as well, relying on O'Connor and Kullen to do the recruiting. And speaking of Kullen, how does his recruiting classes of the mid-80's stack up against with what went on later? We've debated the merits of Bob Kullen before and I'll leave it at that.
Now for the matter of Umile's disengagement. I won't argue the fact that when he was a recruiter, and in his early days as UNH coach, he favored a certain type of player. No surprise that one of his favorite players ever is Kevin Thompson. However I think he has recognized this bias and its why he had no problem with the types of players McCloskey and Lassonde brought in. He had a lot of faith in those two and, really, for the most part they didn't fail him. No one disparaged Umile's faith in others when he was coaching the likes of Boguniecki, Mowers, Krog, etc. The problems started to fester after McCloskey left and Borek came on board. He continued to have faith in his assistants to do their job, and while Borek initially had success, the breadth of that success lessened as the years went on. Anybody who thinks the rosters of the last few years equate to those of even ten years ago is just not watching. A few hits here and there, but way too many misses or, perhaps, settling for something less than the best. Watcher, I think you mentioned awhile back that Borek seemed to be settling for second best instead of focusing on the a few top tier players then filling out the rest with worker bees.
I guess my argument is that Umile really hasn't changed in all these years when it comes to recruiting. He really hasn't changed in his loyalty to others. I believe it goes against his character to do otherwise. The criticism of him that I would make is misplaced loyalty in others. This misplaced loyalty probably led to relying on Borek's recommendation to defer LaLeggia and Vecchione. A huge mistake. A change in assistants should have been made several years ago and that is on him. His failure to do so was never going to be enough for him to either resign or be dismissed. And you, Bomber and others should recognize that.
Like I said before, the time for second guessing has passed. Umile has two more years after this, enough time I think to find out if the Souza method has a chance of working. Let's just hope it does.
BTW, anybody doubt that I am a real fan, and for a long time?
Greg and UNH1932,
I'll start with the full caveat that I am not a fan of rigid thinkers, and therefore tend not to be as favorable to coaches like Umile/Julien compared to approachable, adaptable coaches like Holt/York.
With that out of the way, I'm under no belief that Umile should have walked away five or seven years ago. I'm also not suggesting Umile should today say "I can't do this anymore." As you say, his results did not warrant any of those conclusions. (And I'm certainly not advocating that a smooth transition to Borek anywhere along the line was the solution -- I'm pretty sure that distinguishes me from Bomber
I am suggesting, though, that Umile's recruiting and engagement in the recruiting process is a critical part of a program's success. It seems to be one Umile never cared much for, other than his own Boston suburb background. From stories he was unapproachable even to freshmen during their early days. From 1988 to 1993 there was a pretty noticeable drop from the Kullen 87 and 88 classes. After that, McCloskey actually brought in talent from out west, and it seems Umile was contended to leave recruiting to others, and it worked for him as the program rose.
What I do lament is a lack of self awareness of strengths and weaknesses, hich tends to come from guys with Umile's background (perhaps less savy in organizations), and an over reliance on cronyism (again, which often comes with guys from Umile's background). Starting from that 2009 period UNH 1932 mentions, there were multiple red flags in that area, but zero accountability or oversight. And when there was a chance to make a change in this area, when Lassonde left, Umile's choice was a crony, Tortorella, and he deferred to Borek all aspects of recruiting (or more accurately, interfacing with the young players.
As his "boss" Marty should have sat down and analyze mistakes and figure out why players are not taking the classes they need, and why they felt disenfranchised by a request that they defer (Laleggia, Vecchione). Umile never appeared to have pushed himself to do this work too, or get someone else to do so.
UNH 1932, I'm not saying he consciously slacked off "for a paycheck." As you see, I think much of it is just who Umile always has been. But when an area is a consistent and of late fatal to NCAA hopes weakness, you would think Umile would dedicate more effort to that area. From what I hear from Bomber, and confirmed by what we see when Borek left, that area remained a huge weakness, with the top recruits having no allegiance to Umile. If, as you acknowledge, this was an issue going back to 2009, why was there no effort to rectify it?
Where do I start? I didn't go back and look at it by am 100% sure that you admonished Umile for not leaving earlier. Words, to that effect that, if he had the good of the program at heart he would have left. As a long time admirer of Charlie Holt, both as a person and as a coach, I appreciate the reference to him in the same category as York. But I will remind you that Charlie was disengaged in his later years as well, relying on O'Connor and Kullen to do the recruiting. And speaking of Kullen, how does his recruiting classes of the mid-80's stack up against with what went on later? We've debated the merits of Bob Kullen before and I'll leave it at that.
Now for the matter of Umile's disengagement. I won't argue the fact that when he was a recruiter, and in his early days as UNH coach, he favored a certain type of player. No surprise that one of his favorite players ever is Kevin Thompson. However I think he has recognized this bias and its why he had no problem with the types of players McCloskey and Lassonde brought in. He had a lot of faith in those two and, really, for the most part they didn't fail him. No one disparaged Umile's faith in others when he was coaching the likes of Boguniecki, Mowers, Krog, etc. The problems started to fester after McCloskey left and Borek came on board. He continued to have faith in his assistants to do their job, and while Borek initially had success, the breadth of that success lessened as the years went on. Anybody who thinks the rosters of the last few years equate to those of even ten years ago is just not watching. A few hits here and there, but way too many misses or, perhaps, settling for something less than the best. Watcher, I think you mentioned awhile back that Borek seemed to be settling for second best instead of focusing on the a few top tier players then filling out the rest with worker bees.
I guess my argument is that Umile really hasn't changed in all these years when it comes to recruiting. He really hasn't changed in his loyalty to others. I believe it goes against his character to do otherwise. The criticism of him that I would make is misplaced loyalty in others. This misplaced loyalty probably led to relying on Borek's recommendation to defer LaLeggia and Vecchione. A huge mistake. A change in assistants should have been made several years ago and that is on him. His failure to do so was never going to be enough for him to either resign or be dismissed. And you, Bomber and others should recognize that.
Like I said before, the time for second guessing has passed. Umile has two more years after this, enough time I think to find out if the Souza method has a chance of working. Let's just hope it does.
BTW, anybody doubt that I am a real fan, and for a long time?
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Darius
Go 'cats!
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations
How about, based on nothing but pure speculation, that if he had do-over, Coach would have been more aware of the change in admissions policy? Things in Durham have come a long way since the days of athletes sleeping their way to a B in Ma Brown's Perspectives in Physical Education class in New Hampshire Hall.
How about, based on nothing but pure speculation, that if he had do-over, Coach would have been more aware of the change in admissions policy? Things in Durham have come a long way since the days of athletes sleeping their way to a B in Ma Brown's Perspectives in Physical Education class in New Hampshire Hall.
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