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UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations

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I'll offer a different view, Greg. The Manchester/Concord market was there for the taking for years, if not decades before the Verizon Wireless Arena opened early in the 2001/2002 AHL season. Even in its first year, when the brand-new Monarchs in the brand-new arena were drawing just over 8,000 folks per game, the UNH game vs. Dartmouth (as you recall correctly) was a sell-out. Right then and there you would think it would be patently obvious to the folks in the UNH Athletics department there was a huge, mostly unrealized market thirsting for live hockey - at least in part created by the remnants of the '94/'95 road season at JFK, combined more prominently with subsequent teams that would make deep runs in the NCAA's. And UNH back then had the upper hand - the Monarchs were new and unknown, no local history, and a farm team for an organization located 3,000 miles away on the left coast. UNH was regularly on TV, playing big games in Boston in the HE Tourney (they would win their only two in the first two seasons the VWA was open), and also FF participants in both seasons. NESN, NHPTV and other outlets (possibly WMUR - I forget??) would show games free over the air fairly regularly, which was another something the Monarchs didn't have going for them.

So what happens next? Instead of striking while the iron is hot, and realizing that (at the very least) there was a crossover market of hockey fans who probably would have been there for the taking for UNH ... UNH got complacent, "fat and happy", whatever you might want to call it. Sure the Whitt was still a steady sellout ... remember back then, when the waiting list was reportedly into the thousands, and there were actually straight-faced discussions on here about the possibilities of adding a balcony(s) to the Whitt to accommodate the extra demand? Whether that would create a super-charged atmosphere with the balcony(s) creating a crescendo of noise onto the ice??

The demand was assumed to be permanent. The need to "expand" the footprint of the program was deemed unnecessary. Attendance for the Monarchs continued to grow, hovering at or around 9,000 per game until around the time the economy went into the toilet. And by then, the Manchester/Concord market was "lost" by UNH to the Monarchs. Even when the Monarchs' attendance steadily dropped for several years afterwards, down to about 5,500 per game for most of this decade (a 40% drop since their peak a decade earlier), did UNH make any efforts to increase marketing to those areas? Not that I'm aware of. Oh, and by the way, UNH had its own fall-off, and whether it's due to the economy or the decreasing on-ice success, even modest marketing to the center of the state - much less to the far corners (some of which may be more conducive to Dartmouth anyway) - of disaffected Monarchs' fans could have made up a difference.

Now, the "Monarchs" skate what I'll charitably refer to as a "goon league" quality product. At least with the AHL product, you could tell your fanbase they were watching the future stars of a what turned out to be a multiple Stanley Cup-winning franchise - even if most of the parent club's games were on obscure cable TV outlets at times when most folks in these areas are asleep. Now, the chances of you taking your kid to VWA to see the next Jonathan Quick or Dustin Brown or Tyler Toffoli are marginal, and you're far more likely to see the next coming of the Hanson Brothers or Ogie Oglethorpe. *Might* that create another opportunity for UNH to try to grab back some of that previously-lost market? I would think so ... but I don't see anyone in Durham doing anything creative to try to make that happen. And now you have plenty of open seats to fill, and no pesky new balcony(s) to construct. So what's the hold-up????????? :rolleyes:



To be fair, UNH has treated its season ticket holder fanbase with a combination of disdain and disinterest for far too long. And I haven't held season tickets since the Snively days, so it's not my fight, to be fair. But back when things were good, not only were season ticket holders taken almost completely for granted - after all, with a few thousand folks waiting in line behind you, if you're not happy with the product, then hey ho, out you go, and we plug in someone else in your seats, and you go to the back of the line - but were also subjected to any number of ridiculous money-generating schemes for premium tickets, premium parking spaces, bonus loyalty points towards lord knows what meaningless trinkets attached to the program. Lots of fans didn't like it, but tolerated it so long as the hockey was good. But when the on-ice product fell off ... well, these folks have long memories, and many of them walked. And by then, the vaunted "wait list" had become a mirage. Karma came home to roost. Nowadays, if you want a season ticket, you get a guided tour to review hundreds, if not thousands of options.

It will be interesting to see if lessons were learned with how Hockey was mismanaged with the season ticket holders - not to mention the potential fans elsewhere in the state - and if so, how will they be applied to Football when they open the new stadium next season. I'm sure attendance will be great for a few years. And there are no "Monarchs" to compete against anywhere close on Saturday afternoons.

It's an even easier field of competition than UNH Hockey faced in the early '00's.

Unless lessons were indeed learned over the last decade, I give the current crew five (5) years max to FUBAR. IF lessons WERE learned, then maybe they can be applied to Hockey as well - better late than never, but late nonetheless. JMHO.

Lots of good points here but the real issue is Marty and his staff got complacent and never improved the fan experience at UNH. Right now the product on the ice is marginal Hockey East level and not likely going to a Frozen Four in the next five years unless the recruiting and talent changes. PC played there last year ranked about 15th in the nation and it was half full. Why is that?
 
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Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations

Lots of good points here but the real issue is Marty and his staff got complacent and never improved the fan experience at UNH. Right now the product on the ice is marginal Hocjey East level and not likely going to a Frozen Four in the next five years unless the recruiting and talent changes. PC played there last year ranked about 15th in the nation and it was half full. Why is that?

I think you answered your own question here. Also, it is no coincidence that the decline in season ticket holders corresponds directly with the economic decline during the last recession.
 
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations

Greg A. Just to carry forward the discussion on DU and state support, I realize the search for DU's replacement is over as far as DU is concerned. However, it remains to be seen if this will stand though. It may be naivete on my part to assume a legit search will take place but the U must have strict policies regarding this which must be adhered to. Regarding state support/interest, I can only tell you that I know people who still travel to games from as far away as the Claremont area. Berlin has always been a hockey hotbed and UNH stronghold. Obviously(DU's fav word!), most fans going to the games come from the seacoast area because of the proximity to Durham.

It is naiveté on you part. What is it with you and Bomber. He says Umile reneged on a promise to Borek, now you're saying UNH will renege on a promise to Souza. I spoke to Souza's father at the first Merrimack game a few weeks ago. He seems to think that his son is ticketed as the head coach in three years. I would assume the son thinks the same. UNH undoubtedly will have to post the job just like they do for every opening but, make no mistake, the job is Souza's barring some unforeseen dastardly circumstance. As far as statewide support for the program, Berlin certainly is a hockey hotbed but that doesn't mean that their interest translates into being hardened Wildcat supporters. As far as Claremont and other environs, your evidence is anecdotal, mine is factual.
 
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations

Lots of good points here but the real issue is Marty and his staff got complacent and never improved the fan experience at UNH. Right now the product on the ice is marginal Hockey East level and not likely going to a Frozen Four in the next five years unless the recruiting and talent changes. PC played there last year ranked about 15th in the nation and it was half full. Why is that?

The Whit is half full because the team is boring and they lose more often than not. BTW, I have been traveling to Providence on a yearly basis to see the Wildcats joust with the Friars since the 80's. I have never, ever seen Schneider full. How come?
 
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations

It is naiveté on you part. What is it with you and Bomber. He says Umile reneged on a promise to Borek, now you're saying UNH will renege on a promise to Souza. I spoke to Souza's father at the first Merrimack game a few weeks ago. He seems to think that his son is ticketed as the head coach in three years. I would assume the son thinks the same. UNH undoubtedly will have to post the job just like they do for every opening but, make no mistake, the job is Souza's barring some unforeseen dastardly circumstance. As far as statewide support for the program, Berlin certainly is a hockey hotbed but that doesn't mean that their interest translates into being hardened Wildcat supporters. As far as Claremont and other environs, your evidence is anecdotal, mine is factual.
I don't recall Souza's current assistant position being posted. Very curious.
 
The Whit is half full because the team is boring and they lose more often than not. BTW, I have been traveling to Providence on a yearly basis to see the Wildcats joust with the Friars since the 80's. I have never, ever seen Schneider full. How come?

You will this season we could barely find good seats for the UNH weekend. But there maybe other reasons for that I suspect. I don't know how or why people do t come out to see them play they are tearing it up...
 
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations

It is naiveté on you part. What is it with you and Bomber. He says Umile reneged on a promise to Borek, now you're saying UNH will renege on a promise to Souza. I spoke to Souza's father at the first Merrimack game a few weeks ago. He seems to think that his son is ticketed as the head coach in three years. I would assume the son thinks the same. UNH undoubtedly will have to post the job just like they do for every opening but, make no mistake, the job is Souza's barring some unforeseen dastardly circumstance. As far as statewide support for the program, Berlin certainly is a hockey hotbed but that doesn't mean that their interest translates into being hardened Wildcat supporters. As far as Claremont and other environs, your evidence is anecdotal, mine is factual.

Greg, I'm not questioning your evidence. It comes as no great surprise to me that most of the FOH members are from the seacoast area. It's common sense that would be the case. That doesn't move the needle for me though or change my opinion. I'm not questioning DU's integrity or loyalty regarding Borek or Souza. I'm questioning the process. You apparently think it is okay for DU to be the "King Maker" as Sonar puts it. I DO NOT!
 
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations

You will this season we could barely find good seats for the UNH weekend. But there maybe other reasons for that I suspect. I don't know how or why people do t come out to see them play they are tearing it up...

My understanding - being a frequent visitor to Providence but never anything close to a resident - is that over the years, PC has always been a basketball school. They basically built the Providence Civic Center for Dave Gavitt's hoops program back in the early '70's, and they've been competitive on a national level on and off in the past. As you know, Schneider Arena is located on the outer fringes of the campus, and I'm guessing that some PC students probably spend their 4 years on campus without ever seeing the place once.

Harkening back to my discussion of the UNH vs. Monarchs battle for the NH hockey market ... keep in mind Providence has LONG been an AHL city, for many many decades ... and that was well BEFORE they became the B's top farm team. Throw in the presence of another D-1 hockey program across town (Brown), and PC Hockey truly has a battle on its hands to fill its facility. With a D-1 title now to parade, and with a program that now looks poised to enjoy a long run near the top both in the league and national outlooks - assuming Coach Leaman remains happy with his own "lifetime contract" - I'm sure PC Hockey's profile (and attendance) will improve, but I'm not seeing them overtaking PC Hoops and/or the Baby B's, and booming attendance forcing them to desert the newly-renovated Schneider in my lifetime.

Just imagine if UNH Hoops was playing in the Big East (or equivalent) and had made previous trips to the Final Four ... and the Bruins' top farm team was playing in an (imaginary) arena at the Pease Tradeport. Oh, and Dartmouth was located instead over in Madbury, say like on the Shaheen Estate. :eek:

This brings the "Chuck as Apologist for Friar Hockey Nation" segment of this morning's program to a (merciful) close. :o

Greg, I'm not questioning your evidence. It comes as no great surprise to me that most of the FOH members are from the seacoast area. It's common sense that would be the case. That doesn't move the needle for me though or change my opinion. I'm not questioning DU's integrity or loyalty regarding Borek or Souza. I'm questioning the process. You apparently think it is okay for DU to be the "King Maker" as Sonar puts it. I DO NOT!

I'm not sure Greg "thinks it's OK" for the current coach to determine his successor. I think Greg (and others, including myself) has just come to accept that for whatever reason, Coach Umile has been allowed this privilege by his boss. Sure, it flies in the face of what his boss has said on the record in the past ... but (as highlighted by bomber's posts on the other thread earlier this week) you can see how it *might* have been a trickier situation than most of us originally thought ... and *maybe* this is the best *solution* the powers-that-be could come up with to try to bridge the gap to Coach's retirement, and to ensure recruiting was not left susceptible to the uncertainties that could arise from speculation over Coach's future?

I guess I always thought it was kind of curious that Borek hung around as long as he did - being a former D-1 head coach - and it's for a lot of the same reasons I raised questions as to Coach Stewart's aspirations and plans for his own coaching future, when word began to emerge this past off-season that Souza might be jumping back into the program AND going to the top of the successor line, even with a resume that arguably is a little shorter than the one Coach Stewart has compiled.

But all the signals coming from across the street say it's going to be Souza, and while we can all "question the process" (and as you know I'm not a big fan of the guy in charge of that process), it's probably not going to "move the needle" with the only person that matters, unless something catastrophic happens with Souza OR with the program to derail those plans.
 
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My understanding - being a frequent visitor to Providence but never anything close to a resident - is that over the years, PC has always been a basketball school. They basically built the Providence Civic Center for Dave Gavitt's hoops program back in the early '70's, and they've been competitive on a national level on and off in the past. As you know, Schneider Arena is located on the outer fringes of the campus, and I'm guessing that some PC students probably spend their 4 years on campus without ever seeing the place once.

Harkening back to my discussion of the UNH vs. Monarchs battle for the NH hockey market ... keep in mind Providence has LONG been an AHL city, for many many decades ... and that was well BEFORE they became the B's top farm team. Throw in the presence of another D-1 hockey program across town (Brown), and PC Hockey truly has a battle on its hands to fill its facility. With a D-1 title now to parade, and with a program that now looks poised to enjoy a long run near the top both in the league and national outlooks - assuming Coach Leaman remains happy with his own "lifetime contract" - I'm sure PC Hockey's profile (and attendance) will improve, but I'm not seeing them overtaking PC Hoops and/or the Baby B's, and booming attendance forcing them to desert the newly-renovated Schneider in my lifetime.

Just imagine if UNH Hoops was playing in the Big East (or equivalent) and had made previous trips to the Final Four ... and the Bruins' top farm team was playing in an (imaginary) arena at the Pease Tradeport. Oh, and Dartmouth was located instead over in Madbury, say like on the Shaheen Estate. :eek:

This brings the "Chuck as Apologist for Friar Hockey Nation" segment of this morning's program to a (merciful) close. :o



I'm not sure Greg "thinks it's OK" for the current coach to determine his successor. I think Greg (and others, including myself) has just come to accept that for whatever reason, Coach Umile has been allowed this privilege by his boss. Sure, it flies in the face of what his boss has said on the record in the past ... but (as highlighted by bomber's posts on the other thread earlier this week) you can see how it *might* have been a trickier situation than most of us originally thought ... and *maybe* this is the best *solution* the powers-that-be could come up with to try to bridge the gap to Coach's retirement, and to ensure recruiting was not left susceptible to the uncertainties that could arise from speculation over Coach's future?

I guess I always thought it was kind of curious that Borek hung around as long as he did - being a former D-1 head coach - and it's for a lot of the same reasons I raised questions as to Coach Stewart's aspirations and plans for his own coaching future, when word began to emerge this past off-season that Souza might be jumping back into the program AND going to the top of the successor line, even with a resume that arguably is a little shorter than the one Coach Stewart has compiled.

But all the signals coming from across the street say it's going to be Souza, and while we can all "question the process" (and as you know I'm not a big fan of the guy in charge of that process), it's probably not going to "move the needle" with the only person that matters, unless something catastrophic happens with Souza OR with the program to derail those plans.

Actually Chuck I am aware they (PC) are a big hoop school I was thinking for the UNH weekend seats are/were hard to find coz maybe PC fans want to see the Friars dismantle the 'Cats for last year's HE win ( as if that really is in the mind if these fans ho hum one can dream they care that much about the game 😉😳). Like I said I am not aware of how attendance is going so them this season...
 
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations

Greg, I'm not questioning your evidence. It comes as no great surprise to me that most of the FOH members are from the seacoast area. It's common sense that would be the case. That doesn't move the needle for me though or change my opinion. I'm not questioning DU's integrity or loyalty regarding Borek or Souza. I'm questioning the process. You apparently think it is okay for DU to be the "King Maker" as Sonar puts it. I DO NOT!

Yes, the majority of FOH members over the years are from the Seacoast. But if the program was wildly popular in places like Claremont, wouldn't a membership to the Friends be in order? I joined the Friends board in 1992, and was there through the ascendancy of the program. Building of the Whit, multiple 20+ win seasons, trips to the FF, etc. Believe me when I tell you that interest in the FOH ballooned every year. At one point we had over a 1,000 members and were the largest hockey booster organization in the country. I would assume that the success the program had would filter out to hockey fans throughout the state. Yet, there was little evidence that membership grew outside the Seacoast or Concord and Manchester. It just didn't happen.

As for the "process" surrounding the hiring and eventual promotion of Souza, it is what it is. Whether you feel it is justified or not, Dick Umile has an outsized influence on who succeeds him as coach. He's an alum, has coached the team for 25+ years, and brought it from the depths to the heights of national prominence. Those at UNH who are in a position to decide these things feel that Umile deserves to be listened to. You may think that this is awful, but it is the reality which has occurred in countless college programs in various sports. Coaches like John Wooden, Bo Schembeckler, Dean Smith, and soon-to-be-retired Jim Boeheim have all had this type of influence. Now you may not think Umile is in the same pantheon as those I just mentioned (I don't) but the fact is that the University has elevated him to that level. E cat, what you hope for and what is going to happen are two different things. Get it?
 
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations

Actually Chuck I am aware they (PC) are a big hoop school I was thinking for the UNH weekend seats are/were hard to find coz maybe PC fans want to see the Friars dismantle the 'Cats for last year's HE win ( as if that really is in the mind if these fans ho hum one can dream they care that much about the game 😉😳). Like I said I am not aware of how attendance is going so them this season...

Ref, last March I was at the second game of the three game playoff vs. Providence and watched the other two on line. The attendance at the game I went to was probably 2,000, if that. Attendance on the series clinching Sunday night was even less. I've been going to Schneider ever since it opened and it has always been the same. Providence, the college and the city, and really the whole state is more into basketball than hockey. Nothing wrong with that, just don't expect a packed house when UNH plays there next month.
 
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations

Actually Chuck I am aware they (PC) are a big hoop school I was thinking for the UNH weekend seats are/were hard to find coz maybe PC fans want to see the Friars dismantle the 'Cats for last year's HE win ( as if that really is in the mind if these fans ho hum one can dream they care that much about the game ����). Like I said I am not aware of how attendance is going so them this season...

I think you kind of rebutted your own theory, all in one single thought. :D

I'm pretty sure the PC fans got over that *devastating* HE Quarterfinals loss by, um, err ... early April.
 
I think you kind of rebutted your own theory, all in one single thought. :D

I'm pretty sure the PC fans got over that *devastating* HE Quarterfinals loss by, um, err ... early April.

I know right!! ☺️🙄 Winning National Championships have away of doing that...
 
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations

Post game FOMH meeting Souza tells the crowd that yep he's the one and talks about recruiting and his future plans. Was in Halifax on Wednesday recruiting and said there were a few recruits at the game tonight. Handles honest q's about competing with the Boston schools with honesty. Quality guy; says it's a "tough fight" to get those kids but they still get in the fight for those kids regardless. I'm impressed.
 
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations

Poturalski on pace for a 75-80 point season - enjoy him while he lasts, folks...
 
Poturalski on pace for a 75-80 point season - enjoy him while he lasts, folks...

So, you are thinking that he is gone after this season? That would be a huge loss, and would pretty much torpedo my prediction that next year would be our best bet for getting back to the NCAAs.

But, nice three-point weekend for the Cats and Tyroni.
 
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Poturalski on pace for a 75-80 point season - enjoy him while he lasts, folks...

Coach Souza said Pots (2 goals 1 assist) most likely one of the best players to come through UNH- maybe the best and that talented, un drafted players like him are harder to keep than drafted ones...sound familiar? 😉
Happy for our 3 point weekend!
 
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Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations

So, you are thinking that he is gone after this season?

I hope I'm wrong, but Poturalski is absolutely dominating college hockey right now - he's averaging 2 points per game, has scored multiple points in 12 of 15 games and leads the nation in goals and points. Jack Eichel was a generational type player, playing with a lot of talented forwards at BU, and only averaged 1.77 points per game. Poturalski is still a little slight, but he's a FA and there are 30-some NHL teams competing every off-season for the best FA talent. I'd think a lot of NHL teams would have an interest in getting him into their system. As HockeyRef stated, we'd be better of if he was drafted and only had to worry about one team's interest. He did take an extra year in the USHL to make sure he was ready for the next level, maybe he'll do the same at the NCAA level...??
 
Re: UNH Wildcats 2015-2016 (Part Two) - Managing Decreasing Expectations

That would be a huge loss, and would pretty much torpedo my prediction that next year would be our best bet for getting back to the NCAAs.

This is how the poor recent recruiting classes, lack of depth and balance has really hurt UNH. By the time younger talent develops, the upperclass talent is already gone and the rebuild starts from scratch. Take a look at UNH's last really good team, the 2007-08 HE Champions:

SR - Fornataro, Radja, Switzer, Flaishans, Regan
JR - Pollastrone, Collins, Fortney, Kapstad, Fritsch, Charlebois
SO - Butler, Leblanc, Krates, Foster, Rossman
FR - JVR, Dries, Thompson, Desimone, Sislo, Vranek, Manz, Beck, Campanale

Its a deep and balanced group. While the upperclassmen carried the load, the underclassmen developed - first into supporting roles, then secondary roles and finally lead roles. Flash forward to the present where classes are complete misses or, at best, extremely thin and the you'll find fewer players capable of taking on lead roles and very little in terms of support.

By the time Downing, Kelleher & Willows were ready to contribute at a high level, Goumas and Sorkin were gone. This year Poturalski & Kelleher have taken their games to another level, but Goumas & Willows are gone. If Poturalski does come back next year - and we all hope he will - he pairs with Kelleher and who else? Unless Eiserman, Vela and Nazarian take big steps forward and Blackburn and Fregona can make immediate impacts, you're looking at an elite tandem and a bunch of young talent. By the time that talent is comfortable playing at a high level, Kelleher & Poturalski are gone (Poturalski certainly won't see his senior year at this rate...).

If Poturalski returns and the defense tightens up, UNH certainly could be an NCAA team next year - but the team's biggest opportunity to get back on track will be how they fill in the recruiting classes that follow the solid 2016 group. Unless they can get back to the consistent recruiting classes, its just going to be one step forward and one step back. C. Kelleher, Cippolone, Darcy, McAdams, Esposito & J. O'Neill are an OK start, but Souza & Stewart have a lot of work to do...
 
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