UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

[Dan]

The ability to "favor" a financial applicant does exist, but is confined to the financial matrix. Nolan dejong is a kid who committed to Cornell based on an assumption of his family's income and how much he could receive. In the year of his enrollment, however, his dad made too much money, so the offer had to be curatailed significantly. He subsequently went to Michigan. Another example that comes to mind is Yale and Rheal Guenette. I'm sure there are plenty of examples of athletes at Ivy schools that just cannot get any aid because of their well-to-do parents.



http://www.ushr.com/news/20121024/4677?label=Cornell's+Loss+is+Michigan's+Gain

Unless I'm missing something, I don't see that as financial 'favor' for an athlete - rather a situation where a financial pre-read differs from the final decision due to a family's dramatically changing situation. Need based aid projections are always subject to change upon the final analysis. If Cornell had stuck with the original package, despite the family's new situation THAT, in my opinion would be financial 'favor' - and a clear breach of Ivy League rules.

Ivy athletes are essentially walk-on student athletes who confirm their commitment by signing their financial aid agreement in lieu of the NLI. Now, these are wealthy schools so financial aid can be plentiful - but the problem lies in the total price tag. Qualifying for 50% of tuition at an Ivy still leaves a LOT of cost - which is why the schools will often target families that can easily afford full cost of attendance and families who will qualify for aid covering nearly the entire cost. It's very difficult to find yourself in Dejongs shoes - where the school thinks you can afford 45+ per year but the family budget disagrees...

Interestingly enough, the one area where Ivy schools can make concessions for athletes is academically. That doesn't mean anyone can get in, but the schools use academic matrices to evaluate and balance recruiting classes. The entire class must meet the standard together - meaning you can accept relatively "weaker" students if the rest of your recruits can make up the difference...

 

[C-H-C]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

"UNH Commit Liam Blackburn, West Kelowna Warriors Win RBC Cup"

 

[bothman]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

Unless I'm missing something, I don't see that as financial 'favor' for an athlete - rather a situation where a financial pre-read differs from the final decision due to a family's dramatically changing situation. Need based aid projections are always subject to change upon the final analysis. If Cornell had stuck with the original package, despite the family's new situation THAT, in my opinion would be financial 'favor' - and a clear breach of Ivy League rules.

Ivy athletes are essentially walk-on student athletes who confirm their commitment by signing their financial aid agreement in lieu of the NLI. Now, these are wealthy schools so financial aid can be plentiful - but the problem lies in the total price tag. Qualifying for 50% of tuition at an Ivy still leaves a LOT of cost - which is why the schools will often target families that can easily afford full cost of attendance and families who will qualify for aid covering nearly the entire cost. It's very difficult to find yourself in Dejongs shoes - where the school thinks you can afford 45+ per year but the family budget disagrees...

Interestingly enough, the one area where Ivy schools can make concessions for athletes is academically. That doesn't mean anyone can get in, but the schools use academic matrices to evaluate and balance recruiting classes. The entire class must meet the standard together - meaning you can accept relatively "weaker" students if the rest of your recruits can make up the difference...

Athletes that "commit" to Ivy League schools effectively commit to the admissions and financial aid process. Certainly, each school knows what it generally takes to get into the school (based on history) so that each applicant knows what he needs to do to get through. Same for financial aid based on what the parents make and their net worth etc.

We have seen many athletes end up elsewhere because while they "committed" they did not achieve the grades/boards/etc necessary. Brandon Fortunato (BU), Adam Plante (Denver) are recent casualties of Harvard's process and that list is long and distinguished.

So when I look at Harvard's recruiting (particularly the class of 2018), Bode Wilde, Oliver Wahlstrom, Reilly Walsh, Wyllum Deveaux, etc - there is no guarantee that any of these guys will make it through the admissions process.

 

[Dan]

Athletes that "commit" to Ivy League schools effectively commit to the admissions and financial aid process. Certainly, each school knows what it generally takes to get into the school (based on history) so that each applicant knows what he needs to do to get through. Same for financial aid based on what the parents make and their net worth etc.

We have seen many athletes end up elsewhere because while they "committed" they did not achieve the grades/boards/etc necessary. Brandon Fortunato (BU), Adam Plante (Denver) are recent casualties of Harvard's process and that list is long and distinguished.

So when I look at Harvard's recruiting (particularly the class of 2018), Bode Wilde, Oliver Wahlstrom, Reilly Walsh, Wyllum Deveaux, etc - there is no guarantee that any of these guys will make it through the admissions process.

Absolutely, while Ivy League schools can admit athletes that may not make the cut as regular students the threshold is still extremely high and lots of kids are turned away following the admissions process. A very good student may still have too much of a 'negative' impact on the academic matrix.

One issue Ivy coaches deal with often - at least in non-revenue sports - are borderline students getting into Ivy schools based on athletic ability putting them over the top and once they are 'in' quitting the teams after one season...

 

[E.J. Smith]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

Great answers, very interesting, sincere thanks for all the input.

I'm more familiar with the prep process. But though similar in many ways, there's no single league or, obviously, NCAA involved so a little bit more loose at that level, emphasis on little bit.

I think most, all?, prep schools keep financial aid separate from athletics at the individual level but I know there can be some flexibility at the overall team level. For example, a school might tell a coach he needs 10 full pays on the team but after that they'd be open to admitting good players even if they need big money to swing the cost of school. That can change over time depending on how important a good hockey team is to the administration at that particular point, e.g. if the team has been down and they're trying to rebuild, they'll open the purse strings while they're making admissions decisions.

Makes me wonder if there's anything similar at the Ivies. If so, another thing an Ivy coach needs to overcome that other coaches don't. Or maybe the admissions process for varsity athletes is needs blind, as long as they meet an academic standard and the coach wants them, the money will be there.

 

[Darius]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

A friend's daughter ran track at Penn. She was closer to the bottom than top of the team, but the coach wanted her on the team because she was an outstanding scholar who raised the team GPA.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

I think most, all?, prep schools keep financial aid separate from athletics at the individual level but I know there can be some flexibility at the overall team level. For example, a school might tell a coach he needs 10 full pays on the team but after that they'd be open to admitting good players even if they need big money to swing the cost of school. That can change over time depending on how important a good hockey team is to the administration at that particular point, e.g. if the team has been down and they're trying to rebuild, they'll open the purse strings while they're making admissions decisions.

Makes me wonder if there's anything similar at the Ivies. If so, another thing an Ivy coach needs to overcome that other coaches don't. Or maybe the admissions process for varsity athletes is needs blind, as long as they meet an academic standard and the coach wants them, the money will be there.

I think that last part is the piece that still hasn't been addressed (fully) in the various informative responses. I'll cite the examples of two players I coached in the past, who applied several years ago to Ivy League institutions. For what it's worth, neither of the athletes were hockey players, nor were they interested in playing the sport I coached them in at the next level - their college interests were in another sport, and that sport was/is not a revenue producing sport. I'd written references for both. Both went to the same (public) high school, and both had identical racial/ethnic profiles which would not have given either preferred status. While Athlete A graduated with honors in the top 5 of their class, Athlete B graduated in the top 20%. I was reliably informed by discussions with their families Athlete A received much higher (700+ Ivy eligible) SAT scores in their one and only attempt, while Athlete B scrambled with multiple tests/courses to get into the low 600's. Athlete B tried unsuccessfully to get into prep school midway through HS, while Athlete A never bothered.

Athlete A's family was probably upper middle class economically, traditionally employed, while Athlete B's family on the surface lived in better neighborhoods, and both of the parents ran their own businesses - one small, the other a prominent regional entity. Neither family had an Ivy legacy to draw upon. But Athlete B was one of the best in the state at what they did, and while Athlete B was a good athlete, that level was probably never more than a potential walk-on candidate (and eventually was offered that at a non-Ivy institution).

Athlete B got admitted at an Ivy, and Athlete A was rejected (both have since gone on to do just fine BTW). With only slightly above-average academics, though ... how does Athlete B get into their Ivy without some fudging or tweaking of the admissions process involved?

It's examples like these that make whatever IVY standards are posted and/or shared as "common knowledge" seem a bit suspect, and suggest there is indeed less visible "flexibility" available to certain coaches/programs, as suggested by EJ. Thoughts?

 

[Snively65]

I think that last part is the piece that still hasn't been addressed (fully) in the various informative responses. I'll cite the examples of two players I coached in the past, who applied several years ago to Ivy League institutions. For what it's worth, neither of the athletes were hockey players, nor were they interested in playing the sport I coached them in at the next level - their college interests were in another sport, and that sport was/is not a revenue producing sport. I'd written references for both. Both went to the same (public) high school, and both had identical racial/ethnic profiles which would not have given either preferred status. While Athlete A graduated with honors in the top 5 of their class, Athlete B graduated in the top 20%. I was reliably informed by discussions with their families Athlete A received much higher (700+ Ivy eligible) SAT scores in their one and only attempt, while Athlete B scrambled with multiple tests/courses to get into the low 600's. Athlete B tried unsuccessfully to get into prep school midway through HS, while Athlete A never bothered.

Athlete A's family was probably upper middle class economically, traditionally employed, while Athlete B's family on the surface lived in better neighborhoods, and both of the parents ran their own businesses - one small, the other a prominent regional entity. Neither family had an Ivy legacy to draw upon. But Athlete B was one of the best in the state at what they did, and while Athlete B was a good athlete, that level was probably never more than a potential walk-on candidate (and eventually was offered that at a non-Ivy institution).

Athlete B got admitted at an Ivy, and Athlete A was rejected (both have since gone on to do just fine BTW). With only slightly above-average academics, though ... how does Athlete B get into their Ivy without some fudging or tweaking of the admissions process involved?

It's examples like these that make whatever IVY standards are posted and/or shared as "common knowledge" seem a bit suspect, and suggest there is indeed less visible "flexibility" available to certain coaches/programs, as suggested by EJ. Thoughts?

Dunno, but maybe Athlete B hired a better essay writer?

 

[Dan]

It's examples like these that make whatever IVY standards are posted and/or shared as "common knowledge" seem a bit suspect, and suggest there is indeed less visible "flexibility" available to certain coaches/programs, as suggested by EJ. Thoughts?

Well, like I said above - and as evidenced by your point and Darius' - the Ivys DO have admissions flexibility for athletes (but DO NOT have financial aid flexibility). Ivy student athletes are certainly evaluated for their own merit by the school and they absolutely have to meet certain high standards, but coaches can absolutely push athletes who would not gain admission on their own through the process.

Again, it is all part of an academic matrix where a coaches program and recruiting classes have to meet a certain standard as a whole. For example, Darius' family friend and her academic success could make up for your former player - a top athlete who is only a very good student.

That doesn't mean that coaches won't get very good students and top athletic targets pulled out from under them by admissions - Bothman's examples are also very real.

My knowledge of the Ivy process comes directly from multiple Ivy coaches across multiple sports and schools - that said, I'll never be the guy who assumes everything he hears is fact. I do have the ability to reach out tithe we coaches again to see if things have changed or to confirm of anything I've been told may be incorrect. So if anyone has any specific questions and wants to hear directly from the source let me know...

 

[E.J. Smith]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

My knowledge of the Ivy process comes directly from multiple Ivy coaches across multiple sports and schools - that said, I'll never be the guy who assumes everything he hears is fact. I do have the ability to reach out tithe we coaches again to see if things have changed or to confirm of anything I've been told may be incorrect. So if anyone has any specific questions and wants to hear directly from the source let me know...

I think my question would be, do coaches have any pull/influences/say whatsoever in the Financial Aid office of an Ivy league institution. I know they do in the Admissions office, VERY limited in how heavy and how frequent but I know they do have some pull there, just wondering if there is anything similar, however limited, on the financial side.

My sense is that much like doctors are extremely hesitant to criticize one of their own to a layman, you're going to have to have a very tight relationship with whomever you ask to get anything more than the party line - that perception of academic and financial inscrutability is sacred around those places, far above more pedestrian concerns, like grade inflation and sexual harassment that they like to shrug off like water.

All of which is beside my general belief that they really are playing it straight with financial aid, I'd just like to know for sure.

 

[E.J. Smith]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

I think that last part is the piece that still hasn't been addressed (fully) in the various informative responses. I'll cite the examples of two players I coached in the past, who applied several years ago to Ivy League institutions. For what it's worth, neither of the athletes were hockey players, nor were they interested in playing the sport I coached them in at the next level - their college interests were in another sport, and that sport was/is not a revenue producing sport. I'd written references for both. Both went to the same (public) high school, and both had identical racial/ethnic profiles which would not have given either preferred status. While Athlete A graduated with honors in the top 5 of their class, Athlete B graduated in the top 20%. I was reliably informed by discussions with their families Athlete A received much higher (700+ Ivy eligible) SAT scores in their one and only attempt, while Athlete B scrambled with multiple tests/courses to get into the low 600's. Athlete B tried unsuccessfully to get into prep school midway through HS, while Athlete A never bothered.

Athlete A's family was probably upper middle class economically, traditionally employed, while Athlete B's family on the surface lived in better neighborhoods, and both of the parents ran their own businesses - one small, the other a prominent regional entity. Neither family had an Ivy legacy to draw upon. But Athlete B was one of the best in the state at what they did, and while Athlete B was a good athlete, that level was probably never more than a potential walk-on candidate (and eventually was offered that at a non-Ivy institution).

Athlete B got admitted at an Ivy, and Athlete A was rejected (both have since gone on to do just fine BTW). With only slightly above-average academics, though ... how does Athlete B get into their Ivy without some fudging or tweaking of the admissions process involved?

It's examples like these that make whatever IVY standards are posted and/or shared as "common knowledge" seem a bit suspect, and suggest there is indeed less visible "flexibility" available to certain coaches/programs, as suggested by EJ. Thoughts?

I know the following applies at the prep level and probably applies at the Ivy level.

I'd say there are 3 factors to gaining admittance:
- Academics - grades, level of courses - honors, AP - and SSAT scores

- Financials - I'm fairly certain no prep school currently practices needs blind admissions. I think Exeter and Andover, among others, may have for a period of time but I think that became yet another victim of the great recession. Admissions offices absolutely have financials in mind as they build up that year's prospective class of students. They have to hit a certain level of revenue from tuitions.

- The Person - will this person add to our community personally & socially, what do they bring outside of the classroom - arts, sports, organizations, community service, essays, recommendations, etc. Any prep school in New England could fly two 747s to China and Taiwan and come back with a full class of straight A, 99 SSAT students. But that's not what they want - and actually it's not what those Chinese and Taiwanese parents want either.

I'm actually more or less convinced that it's the interview with the Admissions officer that's the real gate into or out of a prep school. Straight A's and 94's on the SSAT are givens, they've all got them, as are teacher recommendations, essays, etc. but there's no way to fake or buy that ability to win over an adult in a one-on-one conversation to convince them that they want you in their community. The only thing comparable is a coach or instructor who might need a goalie or an oboe player that year and happen to sift your application out of the wait list and into the admitted pile, but even then, the interviewer had to at least put you on that wait list.

 

[bothman]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

I think that last part is the piece that still hasn't been addressed (fully) in the various informative responses. I'll cite the examples of two players I coached in the past, who applied several years ago to Ivy League institutions. For what it's worth, neither of the athletes were hockey players, nor were they interested in playing the sport I coached them in at the next level - their college interests were in another sport, and that sport was/is not a revenue producing sport. I'd written references for both. Both went to the same (public) high school, and both had identical racial/ethnic profiles which would not have given either preferred status. While Athlete A graduated with honors in the top 5 of their class, Athlete B graduated in the top 20%. I was reliably informed by discussions with their families Athlete A received much higher (700+ Ivy eligible) SAT scores in their one and only attempt, while Athlete B scrambled with multiple tests/courses to get into the low 600's. Athlete B tried unsuccessfully to get into prep school midway through HS, while Athlete A never bothered.

Athlete A's family was probably upper middle class economically, traditionally employed, while Athlete B's family on the surface lived in better neighborhoods, and both of the parents ran their own businesses - one small, the other a prominent regional entity. Neither family had an Ivy legacy to draw upon. But Athlete B was one of the best in the state at what they did, and while Athlete B was a good athlete, that level was probably never more than a potential walk-on candidate (and eventually was offered that at a non-Ivy institution).

Athlete B got admitted at an Ivy, and Athlete A was rejected (both have since gone on to do just fine BTW). With only slightly above-average academics, though ... how does Athlete B get into their Ivy without some fudging or tweaking of the admissions process involved?

It's examples like these that make whatever IVY standards are posted and/or shared as "common knowledge" seem a bit suspect, and suggest there is indeed less visible "flexibility" available to certain coaches/programs, as suggested by EJ. Thoughts?

Because the essays and the teacher recommendations matter. It's not just the quantifiable measures that allow you to walk through that door.

 

[Snively65]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

I cannot find Chuck's post about how the Blues would choke as usual. But, why cannot we get players on the Bruins like Joe Thornton, and Phil Kessel?

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

I cannot find Chuck's post about how the Blues would choke as usual. But, why cannot we get players on the Bruins like Joe Thornton, and Phil Kessel?

We HAD a guy like Phil Kessel Anyway, TyK gets ready for the summer and his Senior year:

http://www.masslive.com/sports/2016/05/longmeadow_tyler_kelleher_prepares_for_unh_senior_year_pittsburgh_penguins_prospect_camp.html#incart_river_home

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

Good overnight reading for those appreciating the fine art of sarcasm ...

Interesting that when skill guys were forced on a very limited unimaginative coach who preaches "grit and sandpaper" he was able to take them far. Then, when he was able to remake the roster and get rid of the soft skill players and bring in more working class guys who do what Claude likes and are in his image, his results somehow have fallen off. Glad to see Don Sweeney acknowledge that the team needs more glue guys like Kevan Miller and McQuaid, while drawing the line of "babies" like Seguin and Hamilton. Got to reward the hard working kids.

Good to see the hardworking guys reward the Coach in big situations, as they have down the stretch the last two years. Those are the situations in which the Kessels, Seguins/Vaneks of the world fail, while hardworking guys Miller and Mounsey thrive. Need to get dirty goals.

The only thing that *might* - and I do stress *might* - make sense about the Miller signing (3rd pair journeyman @ 4 yrs./$10MM ) is that he apparently has the same agent as a recent high profile Hobey nominee from the local Ivy. Kind of in the same way as former Sox GM Theo Epstein made goo-goo eyes with Scott Boras over the shockingly overpaid Drew brothers to open the doors for other more productive signings. Like ... I forget. Like I said ... kind of ... and *might*.

We HAD a guy like Phil Kessel

I think that was Snively's point, HR. And once upon a time - way back when, in UNH's glory years during the turn of the century - you'll find the B's HAD that Thornton kid too.

 

[Snively65]

Good overnight reading for those appreciating the fine art of sarcasm.

I think that was Snively's point, HR. And once upon a time - way back when, in UNH's glory years during the turn of the century - you'll find the B's HAD that Thornton kid too.

Will be back at the Old Chicago on Wadsworth at the south end of Lakewood tonight to watch former Bruin Phil Kessel try to get his Pens into the SC finals to face former Bruin Joe Thornton and his Sharks. First time for the Sharks; JT's got the biggest playoff beard, I think. Dan, if you are in town, come on over and look for two gray beards at the main bar. Will be watching Sox-Rox also.

 

[HockeyRef]

Good overnight reading for those appreciating the fine art of sarcasm ...



The only thing that *might* - and I do stress *might* - make sense about the Miller signing (3rd pair journeyman @ 4 yrs./$10MM ) is that he apparently has the same agent as a recent high profile Hobey nominee from the local Ivy. Kind of in the same way as former Sox GM Theo Epstein made goo-goo eyes with Scott Boras over the shockingly overpaid Drew brothers to open the doors for other more productive signings. Like ... I forget. Like I said ... kind of ... and *might*.



I think that was Snively's point, HR. And once upon a time - way back when, in UNH's glory years during the turn of the century - you'll find the B's HAD that Thornton kid too.

Oh I got the point....that was MY attempt at sarcasm

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

Oh I got the point....that was MY attempt at sarcasm ��

Uh-oh, HR bites back with the "I was playing possum" curveball retort. We are clearly deep into the offseason.

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

Uh-oh, HR bites back with the "I was playing possum" curveball retort. We are clearly deep into the offseason.

hee hee...you got it!! So desperate for college hockey will attend the July 15 BU/BC charity game once again...sigh.....

 

[Snively65]

hee hee...you got it!! So desperate for college hockey will attend the July 15 BU/BC charity game once again...sigh.....

Watching True Grit Clay pitch his best 3-inning start of season while waiting for Phil Kessel to take the ice.