UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

[C-H-C]

Reading between the lines, let's say we seem to be on the same page. You are just a bit less blunt than I am.

One other thing worth mentioning - Souza apparently developed contacts in Minnesota - not a typical recruiting area for UNH. UConn sophomores Naas and Austin are from Minnesota as is 2017 commit Mayer. Time will tell if those contacts pay off in the future.

 

[Snively65]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

How about New Jersey?

 

[C-H-C]

How about New Jersey?

Penn State, Quinnipiac and UConn have become attractive destinations for some New Jersey and downstate New York kids. It's not a good sign that no Jersey Hitmen players have committed to UNH since Furgele. Brett Pesce, Matt Willows and Collin MacDonald played for the Hitmen.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

Kudos to all for some great discussion on here over the last 24 hours. Good stuff.

 

[Dan]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

I think Souza didn't have the luxury of bringing UConn verbal commits with him when he came to UNH. He was starting fresh.

He's not starting fresh - even if this was something that was agreed to, like any recruiter Souza would have a LONG list of players available to him. Players UConn was just talking too, players that he liked but Cavanaugh did not, players interested in spots that were already filled at UConn, players who were not interested in UConn, players that he had only recently discovered, etc, etc, etc.

Regardless of what fans think about Borek's track record, he had developed extensive contacts that helped him land kids like Ryczek and Farabee. It may take Souza some time to build up that many contacts.

Souza has coached for five seasons, played professionally for 11 years and grew up playing hockey with countless players and coaches through his time at UNH. I'm sure a personable guy like himself has made a number of connections. Certainly enough, in this day and age - where kids all flock to the same teams, leagues and tournaments - to identify and have access to top talent. This is not the 1970's where connections might lead you to a complete unknown. Ref mentioned Souza's use of the internet - every player, stat, schedule, scouting report, video, etc., you could want is available. Meanwhile, while an occasional club coach with an ego may do everything he can to send players to BC, BU, UM, ND, etc, 98% will simply hope for the best fit for every prospect. UNH is getting its call returned if they see someone and feel the need to contact a coach...

These seem to me to be two half-hearted attempts to rationalize the slow start. I don't think you do, but if you truly believe he has no connections and had to start fresh because he lacked recruiting awareness beyond UConn verbals, than what are his qualifications for his current job? Let alone his future position...

Reportedly, Eric MacAdams was someone he was following while at UConn. He looks like he has the potential to be a Souza-type player (i.e., power forward). Picking up Anthony Wyse after Dartmouth wouldn't accept him is a solid addition, particularly given the need for a couple bigger defenseman.

Souza has never been the primary recruiter - Cavanaugh was the closer and decision maker at UConn. That's a fact. That's why after an entire year, we've picked up three emergency replacements to fill holes on the current roster and just three future recruits. At best, he will overcome his inexperience in evaluation, decision making and ultimately pulling the trigger. At worst, his extremely limited track record is who he is...

The three future recruits are MacAdams, who as Watcher noted scored just 10-8-18 as an 18 year old in the USHL (For reference, in the same respective year Jason Kalinowski scored 8-23-31, Casey Thrush scored 10-18-28, Jamie Hill scored 11-12-23, Jay Camper scored 9-12-21 and Max Gaudreault scored 6-8-14) and two project defensemen who would still be available next fall, if not next spring...

 

[Dan]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

Penn State, Quinnipiac and UConn have become attractive destinations for some New Jersey and downstate New York kids. It's not a good sign that no Jersey Hitmen players have committed to UNH since Furgele. Brett Pesce, Matt Willows and Collin MacDonald played for the Hitmen.

Actually, its a great thing - UNH's biggest problem is too many kids from other Eastern junior league teams. BC and Quinnipiac - the two schools representing the East in the FF - combined for 7 players matriculating directly to college out of the Eastern leagues, while UNH had 8. One of the seven for BC/QU was an emergency goalie and at least three were players who choose to stay East. Only two were major players - Fitzgerald & Clifton...

UNH needs more top kids from the USHL and the BCHL and less late-bloomers from the USPHL or EHL. The top Eastern kids (wherever they're from) likely play Prep, are good enough to go West, or both - those that remain are few and far between and over run by the rest of the 'talent' who put up gaudy numbers against DIII fodder. Of the four you mentioned above, one chose to stay East early then came to UNH ahead of schedule thus missing his year in the USHL (or potentially the USNTDP), another was a late bloomer who played a big role at UNH only because of his supporting cast, while the other two...

 

[Dan]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

One other thing worth mentioning - Souza apparently developed contacts in Minnesota - not a typical recruiting area for UNH. UConn sophomores Naas and Austin are from Minnesota as is 2017 commit Mayer. Time will tell if those contacts pay off in the future.

So much for that, Souza not involved in Naas or Austin recruiting...

http://www.courant.com/sports/college/hc-uconn-merrimack-hockey-preview-1017-20141016-story.html

Cavanaugh recruits Minnesota. Cavanaugh made/makes closes and decisions for UConn...

 

[C-H-C]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

I don't make stuff up. A scout who covers Minnesota for a junior hockey team told me Souza spent many hours out there on the trail of Naas, Austin, and Mayer. I also did not fabricate the information that Wisconsin and BU, in addition to Vermont and Maine, were pursuing Anthony Wyse. I don't appreciate having my integrity impugned.

 

[Dan]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

I don't make stuff up. A scout who covers Minnesota for a junior hockey team told me Souza spent many hours out there on the trail of Naas, Austin, and Mayer. I also did not fabricate the report that Wisconsin and BU, in addition to Vermont and Maine, were pursuing Anthony Wyse. I don't appreciate having my integrity impugned.

I haven't accused you of making anything up - I've simply done some research that indicates the anecdotal evidence (which could have easily been innocently misinterpreted any number of ways) that you have heard may not be correct. Unless you think Cavanaugh is lying about how he discovered the Minnesota recruits, that certainly seems to be the case here.

There is a difference between identifying and closing a recruit and simply following up on a recruit from the bleachers. You'd be surprised how much of their limited NCAA recruiting time college coaches waste 'babysitting' kids who have already committed. Easy misinterpretation...

As far as Wyse and Bahn interest - there is also a difference between catching a game, making a phone call, sending an email or establishing an insurance policy and legitimate interest (i.e. a financial offer). I have always assumed that was simply lost in translation or misinterpreted by your scouts, but it is still extremely important to note for accuracy. I'm not sure why you're sensitive about acknowledging that after Wyse and Bahn's quotes in your own interviews have indicated that's what the 'interest' was (I'd imagine if you were devious enough to fabricate the truth, you'd simply alter the interviews - but you don't, so no one questions your integrity)...

I'll continue to follow recruiting and do the work to understand as best I can what is ACTUALLY happening. Sometimes I'll follow up here to set the record straight or offer alternative perspective. The frustration I feel over the distance between what is reported and reality is what it illustrates for this recruiting regime and not the reporting itself. Its not an attack on your work, but just the same apologies in advance...

 

[C-H-C]

I haven't accused you of making anything up - I've simply done some research that indicates the anecdotal evidence (which could have easily been innocently misinterpreted any number of ways) that you have heard may not be correct. Unless you think Cavanaugh is lying about how he discovered the Minnesota recruits, that certainly seems to be the case.

As far as Wyse and Bahn interest - there is a difference between catching a game or sending an email and legitimate interest (i.e. a financial offer). I assume that was simply lost in translation from your scout, but it is still extremely important to note for accuracy. I'm not sure why you're sensitive about acknowledging that after Wyse and Bahn's quotes in your own interviews have indicated that is the case.

I'll continue to follow recruiting and do the work to understand as best I can what is actually happening. Sometimes I'll follow up here to set the record straight or offer alternative perspective. Its not an attack on your work, but just the same apologies in advance...

I have no doubt that Cavanugh is telling the truth in that newspaper article. I was conveying what was told to me by a source I trust. Cavanaugh pursuing recruits in Minnesota and Souza doing the same during the same time frame are not mutually exclusive. You stated "so much for that, Souza not involved in Naas or Austin recruiting" as if it was a fact. A few months ago I suggested you clarify when you are stating facts vs expressing your opinion. My suggestion is still relevant.

 

[Dan]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

I have no doubt that Cavanugh is telling the truth in that newspaper article. I was conveying what was told to me by a source I trust. Cavanaugh pursuing recruits in Minnesota and Souza doing the same during the same time frame are not mutually exclusive. You stated "so much for that, Souza not involved in Naas or Austin recruiting" as if it was a fact. A few months ago I suggested you clarify when you are stating facts vs expressing your opinion. My suggestion is still relevant.

At least you quoted me this time - less passive aggressive that way. If you'd actually engage in discussion these days (and not just drop in to post your pro-UNH recruiting propaganda) maybe we could clear some stuff up together. As far as the bolded type - take your own advice. You are no different than anyone else in here. We all have sources. Why you think yours are the only ones that matter are beyond me...

Cavanaugh's description of the story (Which you believe) was he found the two of them, sent the other assistant out to cross-check and then immediately offered. FYI, That is not MY opinion of the events, but Cavanaugh's. Actually, it is also my opinion, as it was reported to me by a newspaper I trust...

Don't get angry at me because the actual evidence doesn't jib with what your scout told you...

 

[C-H-C]

At least you quoted me this time - less passive aggressive that way. If you'd actually engage in discussion these days (and not just drop in to post your puff pieces) maybe we could clear some stuff up together. As far as the bolded type - take your own advice. You are no different than anyone else in here. We all have sources. Why you think yours are the only ones that matter are beyond me...

Cavanaugh's description of the story (Which you believe) was he found them, sent the other assistant out to cross-check and then immediately offered. FYI, That is not MY opinion of the events, but Cavanaugh's. Don't get angry at me because the evidence doesn't jib with what your scout told you...

If you were trying to encourage a discussion, editing your post to include a snipe about my "puff pieces'" wasn't the best way to go about it.
Watcher asked me some fair questions and he did so with respect. I'm happy to engage in a discussion with anyone who extends a modest level of respect.

 

[Dan]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

If you were trying to encourage a discussion, editing your post to include a snipe about my "puff pieces'" wasn't the best way to go about it.
Watcher asked me some fair questions and he did so with respect. I'm happily to engage in a discussion with anyone who extends a modest level of respect.

That was part of the original post. Frankly, I'd like to see a little more actual analysis and objectivity. If you're so well connected to scouts, then maybe you could write a little more about what's happening behind the scenes, good and bad. As far as discussion, I'm not talking about today. You used to post often, now you never do unless its a story or a fly-by, unattributed shot at posts by someone else asserting the superiority of your sources and opinions over others. Is that the type of respect you mean? I will no longer ignore those posts and will continue to respond in kind...

If you have thoughts and opinions or facts on the matter, then get involved on a regular basis so the rest of us (me) aren't so misinformed...

 

[C-H-C]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

Now I remember why I stopped posting on the UNH threads. Thanks for the questions Watcher and Snively65. I appreciate the spirit in which you raised them and hope you consider my answers for whatever they're worth.

 

[Hokydad]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

I will add one thing here. It is a huge misconception that players go thru their coaches in juniors on the recruiting front. They could care less what junior coaches think. They make their decision with their parents and know all about the schools before they are recruited. Chances of a player going to one school vs another based on a push by a USHL or BCHL coach is zero, zero. They might push a walk in to a certain program, even than maybe. Any too 3 and mist 4th line types are recruited directly by the colleges. Internet, profile events make virtually all recruits available and few hidden gems

 

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

Trying to close the loop, I think we all are in agreement on the facts of the current situation. We can argue about the peripheral edges of just how in demand the current recruits are, and we can argue about the details of Souza's recruiting connections and bona fides, but on both fronts the defense is hardly rousing. My take away-- one that I came to mid-year after some outsider input -- is that Souza's strength is not as a recruiter. It is as an on-ice coach.

So, recognizing this likely state of events, we have a team with (1) a HC who has very little interest, and little incentive, to recruit guys who will not play for him, (2) an assistant Stewart, who seems to have been marginalized, and (3) an assistant whose strength does not lie in recruiting.
I guess the lack of results is not surprising when viewed against this.

That then leaves the situation that is challenging. I see four possible moves forward:
1) If the status quo remains for two years, as is the plan, Mike Souza will take over a team with very, very little talent. That is hardly a recipe for longer term success, no matter how quickly he learns on the job.
2) Bring in someone who has a strength as a recruiter, and who is comfortable with Souza. This makes the most sense, though I don't mean this as a slight for Stewart, who seems never to have been in a good position to succeed.
3) Umile does the right thing and eliminates the limbo, which a) helps Souza's credibiity and puts him in the job that is his strength, and b) allows Souza to hire a recruiter/friend (see (2), above).
4) Scarano can re-evaluate the whole situation, and in two years deviate from the plan, as they had built in a slight hedge about success. That would be unfair to all involved in Marty's original briliant succession plan, and would be a tacit admission of failure.

Seeing the above four options, I don't see 3 or 4 being reasonable paths, given the people involved.

 

[Snively65]

I will add one thing here. It is a huge misconception that players go thru their coaches in juniors on the recruiting front. They could care less what junior coaches think. They make their decision with their parents and know all about the schools before they are recruited. Chances of a player going to one school vs another based on a push by a USHL or BCHL coach is zero, zero. They might push a walk in to a certain program, even than maybe. Any too 3 and mist 4th line types are recruited directly by the colleges. Internet, profile events make virtually all recruits available and few hidden gems

That does not [edit] sound entirely correct to me, as I know that I have read several of Mike's interviews in which kids who have come to UNH did so with encouragement from their coaches in juniors.

 

[Hokydad]

That does sound entirely correct to me, as I know that I have read several of Mike's interviews in which kids who have come to UNH did so with encouragement from their coaches in juniors.

Maybe, junior coaches want people to think they sway power, laughable. Families could care less what they think. Might play along or show obvious respect but these kids know the teams very well and know where they would like to go. Also when one shows strong interest or makes an offer, that gets out and others who might have less urgency tend to escalate their efforts
Not a diss on junior coaches but these kids at this age think about it 24/7 and the families know that coaches have conflicts because of old friendships etc and will push a kid or try to, towards a team with a pal
Junior coaches might go thru 159 kids in a 5 year period

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

I haven't accused you of making anything up - I've simply done some research that indicates the anecdotal evidence (which could have easily been innocently misinterpreted any number of ways) that you have heard may not be correct. Unless you think Cavanaugh is lying about how he discovered the Minnesota recruits, that certainly seems to be the case here.

Knowing how this guy has handled his business over a long stretch of time, I vote "exaggerating" instead of "lying". If you asked Luce, he'd probably tell you he invented the Internet, and went to school with Al & Tipper.

Maybe, junior coaches want people to think they sway power, laughable. Families could care less what they think. Might play along or show obvious respect but these kids know the teams very well and know where they would like to go. Also when one shows strong interest or makes an offer, that gets out and others who might have less urgency tend to escalate their efforts
Not a diss on junior coaches but these kids at this age think about it 24/7 and the families know that coaches have conflicts because of old friendships etc and will push a kid or try to, towards a team with a pal
Junior coaches might go thru 159 kids in a 5 year period

hoky nailed it here. Wide gap between perception and reality, and the perception most coaches want is self-serving. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but nowadays recruits have far more independence and control over their decisions.

Trying to close the loop, I think we all are in agreement on the facts of the current situation. We can argue about the peripheral edges of just how in demand the current recruits are, and we can argue about the details of Souza's recruiting connections and bona fides, but on both fronts the defense is hardly rousing. My take away-- one that I came to mid-year after some outsider input -- is that Souza's strength is not as a recruiter. It is as an on-ice coach.

So, recognizing this likely state of events, we have a team with (1) a HC who has very little interest, and little incentive, to recruit guys who will not play for him, (2) an assistant Stewart, who seems to have been marginalized, and (3) an assistant whose strength does not lie in recruiting.

I guess the lack of results is not surprising when viewed against this.

That then leaves the situation that is challenging. I see four possible moves forward:
1) If the status quo remains for two years, as is the plan, Mike Souza will take over a team with very, very little talent. That is hardly a recipe for longer term success, no matter how quickly he learns on the job.
2) Bring in someone who has a strength as a recruiter, and who is comfortable with Souza. This makes the most sense, though I don't mean this as a slight for Stewart, who seems never to have been in a good position to succeed.
3) Umile does the right thing and eliminates the limbo, which a) helps Souza's credibiity and puts him in the job that is his strength, and b) allows Souza to hire a recruiter/friend (see (2), above).
4) Scarano can re-evaluate the whole situation, and in two years deviate from the plan, as they had built in a slight hedge about success. That would be unfair to all involved in Marty's original briliant succession plan, and would be a tacit admission of failure.

Seeing the above four options, I don't see 3 or 4 being reasonable paths, given the people involved.

As usual, 'Watcher boils it all down to the salient points, and outlines the options. #4 will never happen (even less likely than #3), so I'm hoping for #3 against all the odds, but don't see that happening unless/until there is another poor season on ice like the one we just got finished up with.

I still think it's going to be the guy (?) after the guy (Souza) after the guy (Umile) who will have the best chance to turn this around. Sit tight for another 5 seasons in the lower end of HE, fellow UNH fans.

 

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

Knowing how this guy has handled his business over a long stretch of time, I vote "exaggerating" instead of "lying". If you asked Luce, he'd probably tell you he invented the Internet, and went to school with Al & Tipper.



hoky nailed it here. Wide gap between perception and reality, and the perception most coaches want is self-serving. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but nowadays recruits have far more independence and control over their decisions.



As usual, 'Watcher boils it all down to the salient points, and outlines the options. #4 will never happen (even less likely than #3), so I'm hoping for #3 against all the odds, but don't see that happening unless/until there is another poor season on ice like the one we just got finished up with.

I still think it's going to be the guy (?) after the guy (Souza) after the guy (Umile) who will have the best chance to turn this around. Sit tight for another 5 seasons in the lower end of HE, fellow UNH fans.

Sigh...at least I'll hopefully be retired from teaching by then! Hey I have learned a lot over the posts and it seems to me that what stands out most from those of us with 'skin in the game' that is, fans of UNH (no disrespect Hoky as your input is valuable as well on the decision making of recruits) is that we honestly do care about the team, want to see it succeed, and feel frustration at the process of getting UNH back to its once former winning ways. That said, Chuck, you don't see Souza as the one who will be able to get this ball rolling; is it because you think he won't get his chance and will be frustrated/leave? I'd like to think he knew exactly what he was getting into, and is/was given a lot of latitude when it comes to bringing in his own guys for his future. When that future actually starts to show up, is what gives cause of concern since it's been slow in coming...

I dunno Toto...I don't think we are in Kansas anymore...the landscape is ever changing. And speaking of changing landscape I'd be interested to know how many STH UNH gains next year, against non-renewals? Looking forward to see what incentives they give to keep people in the seats, esp. those who have declared enough is enough...