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UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
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Greg Ambrose
Registered User
Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
Just want to say how ludicrous it is to state, as UNH 1932 does, that JVR is likely the best player to ever play at UNH. I’ve followed the program since 1970 and, off the top of my head, I’ll just throw out the names of Bob Miller, Ralph Cox. Andy Brickley, Mark Mowers and Jason Krog. I know the retort will be that all five of these guys played with better players than JVR did, but the counter argument is that great players make those around them better. This is an age old argument but I’ll stick to my guns on this one. If I had to choose one, it would be Miller. Years back I interviewed Bob Norton and one thing he said has always stuck with me. This was the late 90s and the memories of Paul Kariya were still fresh in people’s minds. When we started talking about Miller he was of the opinion that he was one of three greatest freshmen to ever play college hockey, the other two being Kariya and Brian Leetch. JVR was just not that impactful compared to others.
Just want to say how ludicrous it is to state, as UNH 1932 does, that JVR is likely the best player to ever play at UNH. I’ve followed the program since 1970 and, off the top of my head, I’ll just throw out the names of Bob Miller, Ralph Cox. Andy Brickley, Mark Mowers and Jason Krog. I know the retort will be that all five of these guys played with better players than JVR did, but the counter argument is that great players make those around them better. This is an age old argument but I’ll stick to my guns on this one. If I had to choose one, it would be Miller. Years back I interviewed Bob Norton and one thing he said has always stuck with me. This was the late 90s and the memories of Paul Kariya were still fresh in people’s minds. When we started talking about Miller he was of the opinion that he was one of three greatest freshmen to ever play college hockey, the other two being Kariya and Brian Leetch. JVR was just not that impactful compared to others.
HockeyRef
Well-known member
Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
Was on the way down to catch the game but the fog was too much for my eyes! On another UNH alumni note...Kevin Goumas re-signs with the Reading Royals (who the Monarchs are playing tonight) returning from Sweden...
Was on the way down to catch the game but the fog was too much for my eyes! On another UNH alumni note...Kevin Goumas re-signs with the Reading Royals (who the Monarchs are playing tonight) returning from Sweden...
HockeyRef
Well-known member
Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
Story about Darren Haydar for your reading pleasure:
https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/measuring-up-darren-haydar-was-small-and-skilled-but-had-the-misfortune-of-playing-in-wrong-era/wcm/9abc1aa0-11cf-4355-b93e-42351187d3b5
Story about Darren Haydar for your reading pleasure:
https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/nhl/measuring-up-darren-haydar-was-small-and-skilled-but-had-the-misfortune-of-playing-in-wrong-era/wcm/9abc1aa0-11cf-4355-b93e-42351187d3b5
I do not know 1932, other than he is leaving me a ticket at will call, but my guess is that he meant JvR has been our most successful alum in the NHL, although I would still rank Rod Langway number 1 in that regard, at least for now.
Bummer on TvR kicking a puck by his own goalie, never an enjoyable experience.
Will do my best to get back from Colorado for 3 pm gathering at Libby's.
Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
James Miller scored his 16th BCHL goal, tonight, and will play for the Wildcats next season!
https://bchl.ca/miller-commits-to-northern-michigan
James Miller scored his 16th BCHL goal, tonight, and will play for the Wildcats next season!
https://bchl.ca/miller-commits-to-northern-michigan
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Darius
Go 'cats!
Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
I'm with you on this interpretation and with Langway who was an absolute stud on a supremely dominant NHL team. I am also with Greg re: Bobby Miller. View this: https://issuu.com/unhathletics/docs/2013-14_unh_hockey_guide_final and search for "Bob Miller".
Just to be clear, James Miller did have a spot with our Cats, played in 2 games, picking up 4 penalty minutes, before bailing out of Durham. Sigh.
HockeyRef
Well-known member
I am well aware.....he’s obviously landed “on his skates” and that’s a good thing. It’s neither here or there as to the circumstances of his departure as far as I’m concerned and all that matters now is that he has found a spot to flourish.
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Well, I would have preferred having him stay in Durham, but I cannot blame him and others for bolting while watching from the bench at the lesser talent on the ice. Whether the result of the plethora of injuries this fall or a conscious decision by MS, I think that freshmen getting ice time is a good thing, and perhaps there will be fewer defections going forward.
HockeyRef
Well-known member
Perhaps the greatest thing that’s happened in the MS era is freshmen getting ice time could not agree more!!!!
Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
Total agreement here with Greg. It's a Langway/Miller/Steve Leach thing in my mind. JvR has a chance to get on the list (maybe), but those other guys were phenomenal when in Durham. It's debatable, but JvR was no where near as dynamic in Durham. And I've got Dan Winnick on my list as well.
I'll bet money Warren Foegele surpasses whatever JvR does. Any takers?
And while on the subject of Foegele, he's a prime example of how Umile butchered this program in the past 6-8 years, largely around his rigid heirarchical player management philosophy. Such BS. Foegele was a dymanic talent; played 1 season + 5 games. Look at what he's done since sailing from Durham. Good for him -- read the writing on the wall; made the smart move. (And yes, I get it, he was a 2-year guy anyway, maybe 3.)
Unrelated topic, but something that bugs the crap out of me (as an alum) because I see it in here often: annointment of any kid that steps foot into the mens hockey locker room as an "alum" (JvR, Foegele, as recent examples). Wrong. Fake news. Unless you roll out of Durham with parchment-in-hand, you aint no "alum". If kid leaves early, he was a "player", no more. And btw, as he checks out, how about paying back all that scholly $$$, since he didn't fullfill his end of the deal, took off, and signed a nice pro contract?!... Just sayin'... Now, if said kid leads the team in scoring his Frosh and Soph years, and leads UNH to the F4, well, in that case, we'll let it go. Ha! (In all seriousness, I'm sure most of those guys kick something back later on, so credit where its due I guess.)
Ho! Ho! Ho!
Total agreement here with Greg. It's a Langway/Miller/Steve Leach thing in my mind. JvR has a chance to get on the list (maybe), but those other guys were phenomenal when in Durham. It's debatable, but JvR was no where near as dynamic in Durham. And I've got Dan Winnick on my list as well.
I'll bet money Warren Foegele surpasses whatever JvR does. Any takers?
And while on the subject of Foegele, he's a prime example of how Umile butchered this program in the past 6-8 years, largely around his rigid heirarchical player management philosophy. Such BS. Foegele was a dymanic talent; played 1 season + 5 games. Look at what he's done since sailing from Durham. Good for him -- read the writing on the wall; made the smart move. (And yes, I get it, he was a 2-year guy anyway, maybe 3.)
Unrelated topic, but something that bugs the crap out of me (as an alum) because I see it in here often: annointment of any kid that steps foot into the mens hockey locker room as an "alum" (JvR, Foegele, as recent examples). Wrong. Fake news. Unless you roll out of Durham with parchment-in-hand, you aint no "alum". If kid leaves early, he was a "player", no more. And btw, as he checks out, how about paying back all that scholly $$$, since he didn't fullfill his end of the deal, took off, and signed a nice pro contract?!... Just sayin'... Now, if said kid leads the team in scoring his Frosh and Soph years, and leads UNH to the F4, well, in that case, we'll let it go. Ha! (In all seriousness, I'm sure most of those guys kick something back later on, so credit where its due I guess.)
Ho! Ho! Ho!
Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
Greg
I have been following the team as long or probably longer than you. If you control for goalie pads and scoring, you could then compare the differences from 1970's to 2000's.
Langway had the best NHL career as he is a hall of famer. I agree his career was longer and as of now much better than JVR. JVR is a great person and Rod is not. I have my bias due to prior encounters.
I love Bobby Miller and for the time he was at UNH it was magic. He was not the second pick in the draft, but I loved his play as well as anyone I have ever seen. There were a lot of games that were 8-6 in the day and you cannot control completely. Bobby Miller, Frankie Roy, CHC line and Ralph Cox would have had 100-150 pts over 4 years today and some were in the 200's back then. It was in my junior high through early college years that UNH was an offensive masterpiece. You certainly are dead on with Miller as that team was unbelievable and the most fun in all my years following our team.
It is very rare nowadays to have 200 pt players as they either leave early or they have trouble scoring goals as goals per game are way down in college hockey and that trended starting in around 2004-2005.
How would JVR do in points if he had a legit ID at Libby's on the day he started like Jason Krog. Jason was spectacular and so fun to watch. Do you think JVR between 21 and 25 would not have reached similar numbers in the late 90's. The NHL draft would say yes. Jason Krog is a special human being and a magnificent talent. His top side in NHL was 3rd line duty for a few years. Is a 25-year-old player judged the same as a 17 turning 18 player who played for the national team for 4 straight years and was the best player all 4 of those years? I would state that most of our super-heroes of the past were not highly drafted players.
Haydar was one of my faves of all time and he came at late 19 and was everything you could want and he was a 9th round draft pick. Was he as good as JVR? I would say yes, but controlling for the goal scoring of each era, they were pretty close (particularly if JVR played left wing and not center to improve his defense, all you need to see was his first game against BU his freshmen year where he skated around all 5 BU skaters and roofed the puck above the goalie).
Brickley was a very special player as well. Norm Lacombe was a high draft pick in that era. It was fun watching 9-7, 8-6 games in my youth but it is no longer that way in college hockey.
I will give you that most would say Langway was best UNH professional player. He could have played football or hockey. I do remember golfing with two French Canadiens in Montreal and they said that Rod was a woos as he was the biggest player on the ice and he never dropped the gloves. Rod left after his sophomore year as did JVR.
JVR scored two goals when he was 17 against one of the best BC teams of that era playing for the USA National team and he was the best player on that team.
I appreciate your knowing the superheroes of UNH hockey. I knew some of the players who were in Hunter Hall from classmates’ siblings and it was a lot of fun in the quad.
We could have used Dan Winnick for his senior year as he was a terrific player and we might have gone over the top.
Thanks to taking the time to share your thoughts.
Greg
I have been following the team as long or probably longer than you. If you control for goalie pads and scoring, you could then compare the differences from 1970's to 2000's.
Langway had the best NHL career as he is a hall of famer. I agree his career was longer and as of now much better than JVR. JVR is a great person and Rod is not. I have my bias due to prior encounters.
I love Bobby Miller and for the time he was at UNH it was magic. He was not the second pick in the draft, but I loved his play as well as anyone I have ever seen. There were a lot of games that were 8-6 in the day and you cannot control completely. Bobby Miller, Frankie Roy, CHC line and Ralph Cox would have had 100-150 pts over 4 years today and some were in the 200's back then. It was in my junior high through early college years that UNH was an offensive masterpiece. You certainly are dead on with Miller as that team was unbelievable and the most fun in all my years following our team.
It is very rare nowadays to have 200 pt players as they either leave early or they have trouble scoring goals as goals per game are way down in college hockey and that trended starting in around 2004-2005.
How would JVR do in points if he had a legit ID at Libby's on the day he started like Jason Krog. Jason was spectacular and so fun to watch. Do you think JVR between 21 and 25 would not have reached similar numbers in the late 90's. The NHL draft would say yes. Jason Krog is a special human being and a magnificent talent. His top side in NHL was 3rd line duty for a few years. Is a 25-year-old player judged the same as a 17 turning 18 player who played for the national team for 4 straight years and was the best player all 4 of those years? I would state that most of our super-heroes of the past were not highly drafted players.
Haydar was one of my faves of all time and he came at late 19 and was everything you could want and he was a 9th round draft pick. Was he as good as JVR? I would say yes, but controlling for the goal scoring of each era, they were pretty close (particularly if JVR played left wing and not center to improve his defense, all you need to see was his first game against BU his freshmen year where he skated around all 5 BU skaters and roofed the puck above the goalie).
Brickley was a very special player as well. Norm Lacombe was a high draft pick in that era. It was fun watching 9-7, 8-6 games in my youth but it is no longer that way in college hockey.
I will give you that most would say Langway was best UNH professional player. He could have played football or hockey. I do remember golfing with two French Canadiens in Montreal and they said that Rod was a woos as he was the biggest player on the ice and he never dropped the gloves. Rod left after his sophomore year as did JVR.
JVR scored two goals when he was 17 against one of the best BC teams of that era playing for the USA National team and he was the best player on that team.
I appreciate your knowing the superheroes of UNH hockey. I knew some of the players who were in Hunter Hall from classmates’ siblings and it was a lot of fun in the quad.
We could have used Dan Winnick for his senior year as he was a terrific player and we might have gone over the top.
Thanks to taking the time to share your thoughts.
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Yes please. Decide how much you want to bet and then the best way to resolve this would probably be for you to just send that check today...
At 22 and in the NHL Foegele has six career goals. At that age JVR already had 47. Foegele would have been a star at UNH - but HE is a third-line, energy, depth scoring type in the NHL. which is terrific, good for him. Very doubtful he ever sniffs 200 goals and 400 points, which is where JVR is already. JVR is a top-six forward and a prime goal scorer (line-chart semantics aside)...
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Conversations about JVR have gone a lot further than simply saying he's not Rod Langway. That's a disingenuous claim. No one had even argued JVR was the best player in UNH history or better than Langway (or Tavarez, etc) until just now (and 1932 does make some interesting points about JVRs place at UNH). We can debate the hierarchy of these players without dismissing JVRs accomplishments. Let's stick to that.
JVR having flaws, not winning an NCAA title or being a HOFer is not equivalent to him being a disappointment or not still being really really good - we could probably find a lot of agreement in the middle. Claiming he wasn't great at UNH, that he's a top-pick bust, that he hasn't lived up to contracts after 15 games or that a winning coach in PHI would try to get rid of him is ridiculous and way to far in the other direction...
Bottom line is if he stays four years at UNH he is a 200 point guy - scoring at that rate as a true FR/SO is a substantial accomplishment. He's a very good NHL player who with good health will score 300-350 career goals. That is also a substantial accomplishment. Are people really so upset that he didn't live up to their UNH expectations and left early that they can't appreciate those numbers and the obvious ability that goes with it?
Langway is probably the best UNH player of all-time. Miller was obscenely productive - clearly out producing his peers in a high-scoring era. Cox, Krog and Haydar were great and stayed four years and deserve credit for that. After that JVR (who handily outscored Leach in his two years) is right in the conversation, and is currently doing something no other UNH forward has ever done in the NHL. He did what he did at UNH as a true age group player - in a deeper NCAA/US hockey talent pool.
On pure talent alone he is as good as anyone to ever play in Durham. Why this thread exhibits anything other than pride in this great UNH alum (dictionary definition is pretty clear - the parchment makes you a 'grad') I'll never understand...
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Definition of word "alum" [sic], or alumni [plural] or alumnus [singular, male] or alumna [singular, female], is one who either graduated OR attended an institution. I will continue using the word alum for former players in our hockey programs, whether they played four, three, two, one, or even less than one year. Based on the definition, technically even James Miller is an alum of the UNH hockey program.
We will see about Warren Foegeli, but I really liked what little of his game that I saw him play for our former head coach. Despite all of the injuries this fall semester, I am finding everything about the way this team is playing more enjoyable than what I have watched the past two years. Now, if only we can find the back of the net more often, except against Bentley, of course.
Snively65 said:Now, if only we can find the back of the net more often, except against Bentley, of course.
UNH has been 5-7-5 since the horn blew on the second Dartmouth game!! Lock of the decade. When has an American Hockey club ever given UNH even the slightest bit of trouble...
RIT, Bentley...
EDIT - oops, I mean RIP!! They're going down like water over (the) Niagara...
Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
BTW - I've also been meaning to note, with the U20 World Championships upon us, that JVR made the U20 National Team THREE times...
After scoring one goal in seven games as a 17 year old - he was 11-10-21 in 12 games the next two years, while skating as a representative of UNH...
EDIT - I may be missing someone - but I have the following UNHers as playing in this tournament...
Mike Heinke - 1
Patrick Foley - 1
Blake Kessel - 1
JVR - 3
No Kelleher, no Poturalski, no Pesce, no TVR, no Moses, no Saviano, no Collins, no Gildon, no Stafford, no Mowers, no Conklin, no Canadians...
The next will be Stutzle, for Germany in Jan. 2020, assuming he makes it to UNH alum-hood...
BTW - I've also been meaning to note, with the U20 World Championships upon us, that JVR made the U20 National Team THREE times...
After scoring one goal in seven games as a 17 year old - he was 11-10-21 in 12 games the next two years, while skating as a representative of UNH...
EDIT - I may be missing someone - but I have the following UNHers as playing in this tournament...
Mike Heinke - 1
Patrick Foley - 1
Blake Kessel - 1
JVR - 3
No Kelleher, no Poturalski, no Pesce, no TVR, no Moses, no Saviano, no Collins, no Gildon, no Stafford, no Mowers, no Conklin, no Canadians...
The next will be Stutzle, for Germany in Jan. 2020, assuming he makes it to UNH alum-hood...
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NCAA watcher
Registered User
Re: UNH 2018-19: Souza The Opportunity
Kevin Dean
Plavsic Canada
Douris Canada
Leach USA 3 years
Andy Brickley
Mike Golden
Todd Hall 2 years
Kevin Dean
Plavsic Canada
Douris Canada
Leach USA 3 years
Andy Brickley
Mike Golden
Todd Hall 2 years
Good find, I was way off - despite specifically searching Dean, Hall, Brickley and Leach on HockeyDB. Their WJC play does show up on Elite Prospects - I should have looked there. Very impressive for Plavsic (an entirely too forgotten elite UNH player - albeit just for one season - it's as if he never happened despite 200+ NHL games and 100+ games for Team Canada) and Douris...
This knowledge does seem to provide more credence to the 1932 argument that players who don't necessarily finish their careers at UNH should be held in more regard - at least for their talent alone - than they currently are. Players like JVR, Leach, Brickley, Plavsic and Douris (or even Winnik, Smith, Poturalski, Muir, Bekar, Niklaus, etc)...
These are often the players who have had longer NHL careers, as well. It shouldn't surprise anyone that it is the more talented players often picked off early by the professionals...
I get that posters are UNH fans first, but If every UNH alum of all-time skated four years - the UNH scoring chart probably looks quite a bit different. And memories of individual greatness are forever altered. It is more fair to acknowledge that than to dismiss it - and doing so doesn't remove/minimize the memories or impact of any four-year players...
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So many UNH U20 team members during the dark years of the 80's. A reminder it takes more than a couple studs to build a winning team...
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