UMaine Black Bears, 2016 2017 season thread

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2016 2017 season thread

So ... while we whine incessantly in UNH-Land about our guy who won't retire quickly enough, I notice you guys extended your head coach by two years last February on the basis of compiling decidedly sub-Whitehead numbers over the first 3 seasons of a 4 year deal. In fact, there's a chance that while us UNH'ers watch on in hope/horror to see if our guy is going to get to the next round number by the end of '18, there's a pretty decent chance your guy might not hit the magic 50 mark (or what used to be a season-and-a-half worth of wins back in the Walsh-Standbrook era) by the end of his original contract term in March '17.

Not looking to pile on here ... but do any of you guys think Red never gets a shot at coaching a game during his extension if he craps out (again) this season and fails to get to the 50 career win mark by the end of the season?

 

[walrus]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2016 2017 season thread

So ... while we whine incessantly in UNH-Land about our guy who won't retire quickly enough, I notice you guys extended your head coach by two years last February on the basis of compiling decidedly sub-Whitehead numbers over the first 3 seasons of a 4 year deal. In fact, there's a chance that while us UNH'ers watch on in hope/horror to see if our guy is going to get to the next round number by the end of '18, there's a pretty decent chance your guy might not hit the magic 50 mark (or what used to be a season-and-a-half worth of wins back in the Walsh-Standbrook era) by the end of his original contract term in March '17.

Not looking to pile on here ... but do any of you guys think Red never gets a shot at coaching a game during his extension if he craps out (again) this season and fails to get to the 50 career win mark by the end of the season?

I think you will find Red is well liked on campus despite his won loss record. No way does he get fired after this year for that reason plus the fact Maine can't afford to pay him and another coach. Maine simply doesn't have any money. The expectations by most are not walsh like or even early timmay like at this point.

 

[Bhall44]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2016 2017 season thread

So ... while we whine incessantly in UNH-Land about our guy who won't retire quickly enough, I notice you guys extended your head coach by two years last February on the basis of compiling decidedly sub-Whitehead numbers over the first 3 seasons of a 4 year deal. In fact, there's a chance that while us UNH'ers watch on in hope/horror to see if our guy is going to get to the next round number by the end of '18, there's a pretty decent chance your guy might not hit the magic 50 mark (or what used to be a season-and-a-half worth of wins back in the Walsh-Standbrook era) by the end of his original contract term in March '17.

Not looking to pile on here ... but do any of you guys think Red never gets a shot at coaching a game during his extension if he craps out (again) this season and fails to get to the 50 career win mark by the end of the season?

Given the recruiting class this year and the next two seasons the University won't have much reason to want to fire Red.

 

[Drew S.]

Given the recruiting class this year and the next two seasons the University won't have much reason to want to fire Red.

Couldn't agree more. He has done a wonderful job finding talent and the win/loss record first few years is much more reflective of Timmy's shortcomings.

 

[Bhall44]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2016 2017 season thread

Has anybody heard any factual specifics regarding Fossier's injury?

 

[Drew S.]

Doherty also has to serve a suspension of some length. The geniuses at the NCAA have still not rendered a final decision on him yet. These are the same brainwaves who made North Dakota drop the "Fighting Sioux". How did that go for them.....

Is it because of something he did at Brown or because he transferred? The whole thing is completely ridiculous.

 

[AMC]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2016 2017 season thread

So ... while we whine incessantly in UNH-Land about our guy who won't retire quickly enough, I notice you guys extended your head coach by two years last February on the basis of compiling decidedly sub-Whitehead numbers over the first 3 seasons of a 4 year deal. In fact, there's a chance that while us UNH'ers watch on in hope/horror to see if our guy is going to get to the next round number by the end of '18, there's a pretty decent chance your guy might not hit the magic 50 mark (or what used to be a season-and-a-half worth of wins back in the Walsh-Standbrook era) by the end of his original contract term in March '17.

Not looking to pile on here ... but do any of you guys think Red never gets a shot at coaching a game during his extension if he craps out (again) this season and fails to get to the 50 career win mark by the end of the season?

I think pretty much everyone has re-aligned their expectations. What Maine accomplished from the late 1980's to the early 2000's was pretty remarkable. Maine and Walsh and everything kind of hit paydirt at the perfect time- the big football schools weren't yet making money hand over fist, so Maine was spending about what they all spent on recruiting, amenities, etc. We could afford a renovated arena that was at or near the cutting edge.

Unfortunately, Walsh's death coincided almost perfectly with Minnesota, Boston College, Michigan, Notre Dame, etc. starting to see their football revenues go into the stratosphere, and they all needed somewhere to spend that money. Maine, and Lake State, and Northern Michigan, etc. couldn't hang with the big boys on the off-ice stuff, and it would have taken a special coach to keep up with the Joneses (or a sugar daddy like North Dakota). Walsh may have been able to keep the train going via sheer personality and iron will, but we will never know. Now that nouveau riche schools like Quinnipiac can afford facilities that are massively better than the Alfond, and other schools like UML and PC have their own Walshes in Leaman and Bazin, any residual effects from Maine's glory years have pretty much worn off. We are what we are. A small rural state school with limited financial resources.

Would things be different if Walsh was alive? Probably. He'd only be 61. Would things be different if someone other than Whitehead had been the replacement? Maybe? That was a thankless job, he may not have been the right guy, but anyone coaching that team that wasn't Walshie would have had a tough row to hoe with the fans. Would things be different if Blake James and Patrick Nero and the rest of the leadership hadn't decided to run off Stephen King and alienate most of the fanbase? Probably not, but it didn't help.

It will be interesting to see what UNH does. On the one hand, there's a little bit of the "small state power" stink about them that Maine had when this all started. On the other hand, UNH has always had a little more cash to splash than Maine, UNH has always had a bit more prestige, academically, in the non-engineering programs, Durham has always been considered a bit less remote than Orono. And the Whitt is still a great facility. Now that a lot of the pressure has worn off the rivalry (I don't see Maine and UNH battling for national or even Hockey East titles any time soon), I'm not exactly rooting for UNH, but I'm watching events there with more curiosity than glee.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2016 2017 season thread

It will be interesting to see what UNH does. On the one hand, there's a little bit of the "small state power" stink about them that Maine had when this all started. On the other hand, UNH has always had a little more cash to splash than Maine, UNH has always had a bit more prestige, academically, in the non-engineering programs, Durham has always been considered a bit less remote than Orono. And the Whitt is still a great facility. Now that a lot of the pressure has worn off the rivalry (I don't see Maine and UNH battling for national or even Hockey East titles any time soon), I'm not exactly rooting for UNH, but I'm watching events there with more curiosity than glee.

Your thoughts and perspective mirror mine, AMC. I get the sense that (hopefully for you folks) UMaine has kind of hit bottom last season, and with all this chatter about the improved quality of incoming recruits, your program may begin the slow and arduous climb back towards the top half of the league, Top 20 in the polls, national tourney contention, etc. On the other hand, I think UNH is sinking into the morass, reminiscent of the latter stages of the Whitehead era, and unfortunately I suspect by the time Coach Souza is in charge 15-and-a-half months from now (but who's counting, right? ) there will be several seasons of bottoming out, kind of like the first few seasons of the Gendron era in Orono. I wonder if UNH will be as patient with Souza as UMaine apparently is going to be with Gendron? I kind of doubt it.

So if there is a silver lining to the current state of things, it might be that you folks have seen the worst already, and might start seeing a reversal over the next few seasons. Our trip down has been slower and less pronounced than yours in recent seasons, but I think overall we're still on a downward trajectory, and UMaine might bounce back up ahead of UNH sooner than many might expect.

But as far as this coming weekend ... may the best cupcakes win.

 

[Ma#1ne Hky]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2016 2017 season thread

Couldn't agree more. He has done a wonderful job finding talent and the win/loss record first few years is much more reflective of Timmy's shortcomings.

Wins/Losses the first few seasons? 16 wins then 14 wins to last years 8 wins and now almost at the half way point with 5 wins....that reflects Whitehead the first two seasons? So what does the last season and this on going season reflect? Gendron was hired to Coach and change Maine back to the winning ways, he even said that if he didn't get it done after 4 years that he should not have a job....oh and then the 2 year extension before year 4....we all know it's all about recruiting and not having a lame-duck Coach, bet had they NOT extended him (RG) that no recruits would have showed up @ Maine? And that when his deal ended 3,4,5,6,7 schools would have had a Contract for him to sign and take there Program to the highest level. Dream on.

 

[walrus]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2016 2017 season thread

But as far as this coming weekend ... may the best cupcakes win.

Should be a split but could go either way. I wouldn't be shocked to see either team win 2. Neither teams players know anything about the old time rivalry.
I'll be there for Saturday night.

 

[Drew S.]

Wins/Losses the first few seasons? 16 wins then 14 wins to last years 8 wins and now almost at the half way point with 5 wins....that reflects Whitehead the first two seasons? So what does the last season and this on going season reflect? Gendron was hired to Coach and change Maine back to the winning ways, he even said that if he didn't get it done after 4 years that he should not have a job....oh and then the 2 year extension before year 4....we all know it's all about recruiting and not having a lame-duck Coach, bet had they NOT extended him (RG) that no recruits would have showed up @ Maine? And that when his deal ended 3,4,5,6,7 schools would have had a Contract for him to sign and take there Program to the highest level. Dream on.

Have you seen Maine play this year? Freshmen are a huge step up and there are more good recruits on the way. If nothing crazy happens Maine should be pretty good by 2018-19. I think even next year Maine might have a shot at the NCAA's.

 

[Ma#1ne Hky]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2016 2017 season thread

Have you seen Maine play this year? Freshmen are a huge step up and there are more good recruits on the way. If nothing crazy happens Maine should be pretty good by 2018-19. I think even next year Maine might have a shot at the NCAA's.

Seen them? Why yes I have, season ticket holder and sometimes travel to watch them...so I've seen them many times and have seen some good aspects also....but NOT sold on the progress part with the man behind the bench.

 

[NorthMike]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2016 2017 season thread

Regarding the prior talk about coach, small school etc -

I'm slowly becoming a believer Red can't bring in a winning team, not because he isn't liked, hockey knowledge or can't recruit. It seems he lacks the ability to motivate and gel a team, maybe too old school. I don't know why. But when I listen to him I fall asleep. I think the solution may be to move Red into hockey operations president or some such position.

As far as if the school can't afford it, the athletic department could afford moving Cosgrove into same.

As far as this talk about poor, small, state school, not shiny new facility - how do you explain Duluths success? I'm missing something there as umaine is in a better position with those categories.

 

[Drew S.]

Regarding the prior talk about coach, small school etc -

I'm slowly becoming a believer Red can't bring in a winning team, not because he isn't liked, hockey knowledge or can't recruit. It seems he lacks the ability to motivate and gel a team, maybe too old school. I don't know why. But when I listen to him I fall asleep. I think the solution may be to move Red into hockey operations president or some such position.

As far as if the school can't afford it, the athletic department could afford moving Cosgrove into same.

As far as this talk about poor, small, state school, not shiny new facility - how do you explain Duluths success? I'm missing something there as umaine is in a better position with those categories.

BU, Northeastern, and Lowell don't even have football teams and they all made the NCAA tourney last year. I don't think football or money have much to do with Maine's decline either.

I'll try to post more tonight, but it seems like after Standbrook fell and got hurt Maine's recruiting went off a cliff. It might just be a coincidence but it's night and day who was committing before versus who Maine was getting after.

 

[AMC]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2016 2017 season thread

BU, Northeastern, and Lowell don't even have football teams and they all made the NCAA tourney last year. I don't think football or money have much to do with Maine's decline either.

I'll try to post more tonight, but it seems like after Standbrook fell and got hurt Maine's recruiting went off a cliff. It might just be a coincidence but it's night and day who was committing before versus who Maine was getting after.

I think it might help that they don't have football teams. Hard to justify Maine getting rid of football to help hockey or anything at this point- the football team is both better and drawing bigger crowds.

Yeah, losing maybe the best recruiter in NCAA history hurt. Walsh/Standbrook was such a force of nature. The problem with holding every ensuing coach to their standards is that I don't think there is a head coach/lead recruiter combination alive today that could match it.

I think Gendron is probably an average NCAA hockey coach. I'm not in the locker room so I don't know about motivation, etc. At some point, if you are 20ish years old and want to be a professional hockey player, shouldn't you be able to motivate yourself to play 120 minutes of hockey per weekend? Yes, the right coach can get more out of the players than they are capable of, but if you are a scholarship athlete, playing in a sport where if you are simply above average you will have a chance to go pro, maybe look in the mirror if you can't get it together to hustle back on defense.

Regarding Duluth- they have a new $80M arena built in 2010, seating over 6,000. Also 16 of their 27 players are in-state from Minnesota. So, newer/nicer facilities, advantage of being the second biggest program in the best hockey state in the nation, that helps.

 

[Drew S.]

I think it might help that they don't have football teams. Hard to justify Maine getting rid of football to help hockey or anything at this point- the football team is both better and drawing bigger crowds.

Yeah, losing maybe the best recruiter in NCAA history hurt. Walsh/Standbrook was such a force of nature. The problem with holding every ensuing coach to their standards is that I don't think there is a head coach/lead recruiter combination alive today that could match it.

I think Gendron is probably an average NCAA hockey coach. I'm not in the locker room so I don't know about motivation, etc. At some point, if you are 20ish years old and want to be a professional hockey player, shouldn't you be able to motivate yourself to play 120 minutes of hockey per weekend? Yes, the right coach can get more out of the players than they are capable of, but if you are a scholarship athlete, playing in a sport where if you are simply above average you will have a chance to go pro, maybe look in the mirror if you can't get it together to hustle back on defense.

Regarding Duluth- they have a new $80M arena built in 2010, seating over 6,000. Also 16 of their 27 players are in-state from Minnesota. So, newer/nicer facilities, advantage of being the second biggest program in the best hockey state in the nation, that helps.

Losing Standbrook hurt, but his last three years were very poor. I'll try to post the commits before and after he got hurt tonight. It's shocking just how much they changed and that is what really started Maine's decline.

I think next year will be the real test as far as how good he is. I've been happy with the recruiting but like you I'm not in the locker room.

 

[walrus]

Regarding the prior talk about coach, small school etc -

I'm slowly becoming a believer Red can't bring in a winning team, not because he isn't liked, hockey knowledge or can't recruit. It seems he lacks the ability to motivate and gel a team, maybe too old school. I don't know why. But when I listen to him I fall asleep. I think the solution may be to move Red into hockey operations president or some such position.

As far as if the school can't afford it, the athletic department could afford moving Cosgrove into same.

As far as this talk about poor, small, state school, not shiny new facility - how do you explain Duluths success? I'm missing something there as umaine is in a better position with those categories.

My son just saw a game in Duluth. He said it was a nice facility, kind of sterile compared to alfond but very comfortable and nice place to watch a game

 

[NorthMike]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2016 2017 season thread

My son just saw a game in Duluth. He said it was a nice facility, kind of sterile compared to alfond but very comfortable and nice place to watch a game

Duluth is a nice small town, like Bangor even more remote and colder. I was at the campus a few years ago just after they won the national title and at the time I thought they played games in the city rink, not on campus. The campus rink was just a small practice rink. At that time anyway.

 

[NorthMike]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2016 2017 season thread

I think Gendron is probably an average NCAA hockey coach. I'm not in the locker room so I don't know about motivation, etc. At some point, if you are 20ish years old and want to be a professional hockey player, shouldn't you be able to motivate yourself to play 120 minutes of hockey per weekend? Yes, the right coach can get more out of the players than they are capable of, but if you are a scholarship athlete, playing in a sport where if you are simply above average you will have a chance to go pro, maybe look in the mirror if you can't get it together to hustle back on defense.

Regarding Duluth- they have a new $80M arena built in 2010, seating over 6,000. Also 16 of their 27 players are in-state from Minnesota. So, newer/nicer facilities, advantage of being the second biggest program in the best hockey state in the nation, that helps.

Agree 100% with first comment.

Second comment, the rink is downtown and had heavy municipal funding.

"The night of Dec. 30, 2010, was truly a defining moment for the University of Minnesota Duluth men’s hockey program With one drop of the puck on that particular evening, the Bulldogs went from playing in the Western Collegiate Hockey Association’s oldest facility to the newest rink in the nation -- not to mention one of the best!

Construction of the 6,756-seat AMSOIL Arena, which is just a few hundred yards away from the venerable Duluth Entertainment and Convention Center arena, UMD’s former home since the 1966-67 season, began in April 2009. In all, the $80 million facility was a true collaborative effort, with the State of Minnesota funding half of the cost through general obligation bonds, the City of Duluth providing 27 percent of the cost through a voter-approved food and beverage tax, UMD funding 12 percent and the DECC funding the remaining 11 percent."

 

[AMC]

Re: UMaine Black Bears, 2016 2017 season thread

Agree 100% with first comment.

Second comment, the rink is downtown and had heavy municipal funding.

"The night of Dec. 30, 2010, was truly a defining moment for the University of Minnesota Duluth men’s hockey program With one drop of the puck on that particular evening, the Bulldogs went from playing in the Western Collegiate Hockey Association’s oldest facility to the newest rink in the nation -- not to mention one of the best!

Construction of the 6,756-seat AMSOIL Arena, which is just a few hundred yards away from the venerable Duluth Entertainment and Convention Center arena, UMD’s former home since the 1966-67 season, began in April 2009. In all, the $80 million facility was a true collaborative effort, with the State of Minnesota funding half of the cost through general obligation bonds, the City of Duluth providing 27 percent of the cost through a voter-approved food and beverage tax, UMD funding 12 percent and the DECC funding the remaining 11 percent."

I mean, regardless of who paid for it, it's the rink the team gets to use. UMaine hoops gets to recruit using the fancy new Bangor arena, the recruits don't ask to see the paperwork on the financing.