Russell Jaslow
Registered User
But once the clock starts, the clock starts. It can't be paused. It doesn't matter whether you don't attend school for a year.
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Transfer Portal
- Thread starter robertearle
- Start date
But once the clock starts, the clock starts. It can't be paused. It doesn't matter whether you don't attend school for a year.
Puckluck89
New member
Are you sure? If you don't go to school at all, it's not a year of eligibility. I know personally of several players who attend Princeton, Harvard, and Dartmouth who stayed home and finished their 4 years of eligibility after the Covid year. They played 4 years. They went to school 4 years. They just didn't attend one year.
robertearle
Well-known member
"The clock' can be stopped for a handful of reasons - if a player centralizes with the national/Olympic team, goes on a religious 'mission', military service, pregnancy, eg. Otherwise, the five year clock is a five-year clock; you have five calendar years to use your four years of competition eligibility, starting from when you first enroll as a full-time student. The other common way to extend the clock - and this only came with a rule change around 2015 or so - is if a SA first takes a redshirt year and then subsequently has to take a medical hardship year; in that instance, a 'sixth year' gets added to the clock, because of the 'beyond their control' nature of the medical hardship.
At the time the 'deal' for the COVID year not counting against eligibility and 'the clock' was announced, it was very clear that those who chose to not participate would not be given such consideration; the bonus COVID year was the 'reward' for taking the risk of participating in the face of the great unknowns of what the COVID season might hold. Ivy League schools chose to not participate; Ivy League athletes who chose to not transfer etc essentially also chose to not participate. Sitting at home was choosing to not participate. Their clock continued to run.
Maybe that rather harsh stance has softened since then. But until I see something in print that states so, I'd assume it has not 'softened'.
In short, yes, I'm pretty sure. As for those you know, etc., you are describing SAs who played four years during a five year period. In Vanstone's case, we are talking about a sixth year.
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FiveHoleFrenzy
Well-known member
This is a podcast from Youth Hockey Hub (State of Minnesota). It will require a chunk of time for those who have interest in the recruitment process. It will be well worth your time. This podcast has a lot of information and the guests are, Bethany Brausen, assistant coach for St. Thomas, Josie Hemp, an incoming freshmen for the UofM, and the dad of Josie St. Martin, who is a committed 24 recruit for tOSU.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEfwxq9akIU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEfwxq9akIU
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Reddington
Well-known member
Except Van Stone meets the exception of her 5th year she only played In 5 games and therefore in my opinion gets a medical redshirt. That's just my opinion. It will also be interesting to see if Petrie plays for Clarkson or moves on. Her case is a little different in that she did not stay home during the COVID year. However, the medical redshirt might apply there also if she applied for it.
robertearle
Well-known member
But does VanStone meet the exception for a 6th year? Yes (most likely) if 2020-21 can be counted as a redshirt year. PuckLuck says many Ivy students "stayed home". If we take that to mean simply took the entire year off, didn't attend school at all, that raises the question in my mind, does one qualify to be a 'redshirt' if one isn't in school? I don't know the answer, but I think the answer is no. The idea of a redshirt year is to be in school, practicing with your team, preparing yourself, raising your 'game' to reach a competitive level. If you're not in school, not practicing with your team, you're obviously not doing that.
As I said, she'll be an interesting case to follow.
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Looking again, I may have not responded directly to what you were saying. Yes, playing in only five games before an injury would mean that she qualifies for a medical hardship year, to replace the year lost to injury. But *only* if her clock hasn't run out. And her clock will not have run out *only* if 2020-21 can be counted as a redshirt year.
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Russell Jaslow
Registered User
robertearle is a 1,000% correct.
Some other clarifying points. That five-year clock starts when you matriculate at any (approved) school of higher education. That includes a two-year school or a two-year program in a four-year school. (I don't know about schools outside the U.S.) It also starts even if the school doesn't even have sports (and then say you decide to transfer to a school in order to play a sport).
It also goes the other way around. If you never attended college, you can play no matter how old you are once you start attending. There was a case years ago that got written up in SI about a father and son playing on the same UMass-Boston hockey team.
[A friend of mine was a really decent hockey player in adult leagues, but never played in school. He used to always joke with me he should go back to school to play. I said, too late. Your clock ran out. He said, but I only went to school for two years (he got a two-year degree at a community college). I said, it doesn't matter, once you started attending classes, that five-year lock started. And it ran out a long, long time ago.]
Some other clarifying points. That five-year clock starts when you matriculate at any (approved) school of higher education. That includes a two-year school or a two-year program in a four-year school. (I don't know about schools outside the U.S.) It also starts even if the school doesn't even have sports (and then say you decide to transfer to a school in order to play a sport).
It also goes the other way around. If you never attended college, you can play no matter how old you are once you start attending. There was a case years ago that got written up in SI about a father and son playing on the same UMass-Boston hockey team.
[A friend of mine was a really decent hockey player in adult leagues, but never played in school. He used to always joke with me he should go back to school to play. I said, too late. Your clock ran out. He said, but I only went to school for two years (he got a two-year degree at a community college). I said, it doesn't matter, once you started attending classes, that five-year lock started. And it ran out a long, long time ago.]
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Exactly. They played four seasons in five years. Perfectly legal. But if they had not attended school for two years, they would have only been able to play for three seasons (not considering any Covid situation).
ARM
Fan of chipmunk-like mascots.
The VanStone case seems pretty straightforward to me. She started in 2022-23, so obviously, she still had eligibility then. She played in 4 games last season, none of which were during the 2nd half of the season, so she is definitely eligible for a medical hardship for that season, if she was injured. The NCAA has granted waivers for such things in the past, for athletes who have suffered multiple season-ending injuries. It seems very likely that she has been granted eligibility for the coming season.
robertearle
Well-known member
Student-Athletes get a sixth year if they lost two of their fives years to medical hardships ("conditions beyond their control"), or if they take a redshirt year and then suffer a medical hardship year (and this second way to get a sixth year is only since 2015 or so). VanStone fits that second description IF the NCAA recognizes the Ivy League non-participation as a redshirt year. I just don't know if they will. And that's if she was in school and more-or-less "on the roster" for the team that didn't participate. If she was out of school altogether in 2020-21, I *really* doubt it will count as a redshirt year. The whole Ivy League non-participation in 2020-21 makes this a very unusual situation.
But we'll see...
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ARM
Fan of chipmunk-like mascots.
That interpretation seems very punitive to me (not that being punitive would break new ground for the NCAA). It seems like the pandemic was beyond VanStone's control (yes, she could have transferred, if we want to chuck that entire student side of "student athlete").
robertearle
Well-known member
I generally agree. But the NCAA - IMO - very much wanted to "incentivize" athletes to participate in 2020-21, and the flip side of that was/is to dis-incentivize those who did not. It's the combination of 'COVID year' and 'non-participation' that makes this (I hesitate to use the word) unique.
Reddington
Well-known member
Except the Ivies as a whole did not play so that was a decision from the top down, rather than a student exercising a choice of not playing.
Well, I hope that she is able to figure the question out with the coaches.
FiveHoleFrenzy, thanks for the link, earlier on this thread, which looks like a good set of interviews:
FiveHoleFrenzy, thanks for the link, earlier on this thread, which looks like a good set of interviews:
robertearle
Well-known member
The NCAA was pretty clear about who got the extra COVID year: "Winter sport student-athletes who compete during 2020-21 in Division I will receive both an additional season of competition and an additional year in which to complete it, the Division I Council decided."
https://www.ncaa.org/news/2020/10/1...bility-for-winter-sport-student-athletes.aspx
FiveHoleFrenzy
Well-known member
You're welcome... I probably should have mentioned that the interview session with assistant coach Bethany Brausen does cover the topic of the transfer portal as it relates to recruitment.
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Hockeybuckeye
Well-known member
Did anyone do a head count of how many in the transfer portal were freshmen, sophomores, juniors, seniors and fifth year seniors?
BadgerPete
Active member
A quick sort of the portal list (which doesn't differentiate between Sr and 5th year)
Seniors - 60
Juniors - 20
Sophomores - 30
Freshmen - 30
robertearle
Well-known member
The listing at one of the two web sites is sortable, with a column showing 'eligibility left'.
(If I counted correctly): 5 listed as having four years eligibility, 29 with three years, 37 with two years, 77 with one year.
(It says "109 Total Players' at the top, but that's clearly incorrect; maybe that's total still available, or some such).
Hockeybuckeye
Well-known member
Thanks!