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The Stock Market thread: BUY! BUY! BUY! Sell, sell, sell...

Re: The Stock Market thread: BUY! BUY! BUY! Sell, sell, sell...

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Money supply is up and that will push the market. But that doesn't mean inflation is up.

Do you even understand how non-auctioned goods are priced? It's based upon how scarce the product is relative to the money supply. When the money supply goes up, the price goes up. What do you think that's called? Inflation!
 
Re: The Stock Market thread: BUY! BUY! BUY! Sell, sell, sell...

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Money supply is up and that will push the market. But that doesn't mean inflation is up.
There will be more money in the economy without having overall production grow. Without having more goods, but increasing the number of dollars chasing those goods, there's only one thing that can happen - that likely has happened, and that's creating an inflationary gap.

We had QE1 and QE2 injected into the economy during the recessionary period. Normally during a recession you would see prices drop, and we did see some of that. But we probably should have seen more of it when you really think about it. We were propping up housing with tax credits and really low interest rates, keeping housing prices higher than they should have been. We keep seeing these price bubbles in various assets, which are effectively a case of severely targeted inflation by the markets trying to find solid assets and then over investing in them due to the relative struggle of actually finding those assets in the broader economy. Right now I believe that much of the stock market is propped up by a bubble, that the DJIA should be a couple thousand points lower than it is.

We have so much more liquidity in the economy now that when/if we see unemployment return to around 6%, and it's not because more people have dropped out of the work force, that we're going to see such a run up in overall CPI that it may very well hit the levels of hyper inflation.

We had a crisis built upon too much debt - personal, business and government. So what are our government officials doing? They infusing more cash into the economy, dropping interest rates to levels that encourage people to keep borrowing. Our government is trying to solve a debt crisis by encouraging more debt. How can anyone see that as a good thing?

Luckily, in a perverse sort of way, the interest rates are so low now that lenders aren't making loans to utilize all the cash that they can - there's no profit in it. They're protecting themselves from interest rate risk, and at the same time and at the same time keeping the American public from running even further into the tiger's mouth.
 
Re: The Stock Market thread: BUY! BUY! BUY! Sell, sell, sell...

There will be more money in the economy without having overall production grow. Without having more goods, but increasing the number of dollars chasing those goods, there's only one thing that can happen - that likely has happened, and that's creating an inflationary gap.

Do you even understand how non-auctioned goods are priced? It's based upon how scarce the product is relative to the money supply. When the money supply goes up, the price goes up. What do you think that's called? Inflation!

I may not understand it. Seriously and that's why I asked.

But it seems to me that prices are moreso driven by supply and demand. If consumer spending/demand is totally stifled...increases in money supply shouldn't mean that we automatically have high inflation.

In our two speed economy, the investor class 'haves' are doing well and spending (or rather investing) and the stock market goes up. The balance of the country with high unemployment is struggling and spending less...and in that scenario inflation could remain moderate.

Just now, I took a look at the CPI for example. It showed that outside of crisis years (2009, 2010)...that inflation in 2012 was lower than any back to the tech bubble and lower than most years in the 90s. This with multiple QEs.

CPI calculator: http://146.142.4.24/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=1,000.00&year1=2000&year2=2001

So again, my question was whether increased money supply should help the stock market...but not necessarily mean we'll have high inflation?
 
Re: The Stock Market thread: BUY! BUY! BUY! Sell, sell, sell...

So again, my question was whether increased money supply should help the stock market...but not necessarily mean we'll have high inflation?
Yes, that is possible, but not over the long-term. I think we've seen it already, by having the excess money targeting certain assets, in this case stocks and bonds. The thing is, that once the economy rebounds from its malaise (government spending had been about 20% of the economy and now it's 25% while GDP has increased around 2%, which indicates weak/flat private sector), you will see that upward pressure on prices across the economy as a whole.

A principle behind macroeconomics that you should understand is something called the Phillips Curve. It's very simple in concept, showing a tradeoff between unemployment and inflation rates. The tradeoff doesn't explicitly state causality, but does demonstrate the relationship that can be used in looking at one variable to predict the other. High unemployment generally means low inflation and vice versa. We've had high unemployment for quite a while now, which is suppressing inflation rates, even with the excess cash floating around, which is why I stated the caveat of U ~6% in my earlier post.

Six percent unemployment (U) was what economists considered the level of "natural" unemployment in the economy. Then during the 90s, it was thought to have gone down to 4% through advancements in technology allowing for better utilization of labor, but that may have been just a reaction to a very strong and unrecognized asset bubble during Chairman Greenspan's tenure with the Fed.

Add to that, when you move to U4 or U5 unemployment (I think either of those two should be the reported rate, not U3 which is used by the government - note: not a recent move and my opinion is not politically motivated at this point in time, definitions below), you would see a much higher rate, something that might make people realize/think we're much close to 1930s employment levels than what seems to get reported.



U1: Percentage of labor force unemployed 15 weeks or longer.
U2: Percentage of labor force who lost jobs or completed temporary work.
U3: Official unemployment rate per the ILO definition occurs when people are without jobs and they have actively looked for work within the past four weeks.
U4: U3 + "discouraged workers", or those who have stopped looking for work because current economic conditions make them believe that no work is available for them.
U5: U4 + other "marginally attached workers", or "loosely attached workers", or those who "would like" and are able to work, but have not looked for work recently.
U6: U5 + Part-time workers who want to work full-time, but cannot due to economic reasons

ETA: Definitions ripped from Wiki, because they're accurate.
 
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Re: The Stock Market thread: BUY! BUY! BUY! Sell, sell, sell...

So again, my question was whether increased money supply should help the stock market...but not necessarily mean we'll have high inflation?

The stock market will certainly nominally increase. However, given it is going to primarily be commodity prices that lead the way, it will result in inflation.
 
Re: The Stock Market thread: BUY! BUY! BUY! Sell, sell, sell...

All I know is that last time interest rates were this low...I fell off my dinosaur.
 
Re: The Stock Market thread: BUY! BUY! BUY! Sell, sell, sell...

The stock market will certainly nominally increase. However, given it is going to primarily be commodity prices that lead the way, it will result in inflation.

But it doesn't HAVE to lead to inflation in the short term and likely won't lead to any significant inflation until the deflationary forces on the economy have subsided. The problem isn't short term, it's going to be in the lag time between when consumer demand picks up and when the Fed is going to be able to shrink the money supply by reselling the items that they purchased during QE.

Given that part of the problem is an overhang in consumer debt, some inflation may actually help improve the economy going forward by making it easier for consumer to de-leverage using cheeper dollars.
 
Re: The Stock Market thread: BUY! BUY! BUY! Sell, sell, sell...

Anyone else expect a summer dip that just never came?

FD-I have been in the market for a very long time. I just cannot a summer that i did not lose money at some time. I had become a great believer in Sell In May and Go Away. This year I have had a net increase in each of the past 16 weeks-that has never happened for me ever. I should point out that this is in a very conservative portfolio with quite a bit in Preferred stocks, mid rated Commercial Bonds, and a host of high yielding common stocks. I am up in virtually every sector during this time including but not limited to REITs, financial stocks, consumer staples, oil pipelines trusts, and gold funds. i honestly have no clue why things are so godd.
 
Re: The Stock Market thread: BUY! BUY! BUY! Sell, sell, sell...

FD-I have been in the market for a very long time. I just cannot a summer that i did not lose money at some time. I had become a great believer in Sell In May and Go Away. This year I have had a net increase in each of the past 16 weeks-that has never happened for me ever. I should point out that this is in a very conservative portfolio with quite a bit in Preferred stocks, mid rated Commercial Bonds, and a host of high yielding common stocks. I am up in virtually every sector during this time including but not limited to REITs, financial stocks, consumer staples, oil pipelines trusts, and gold funds. i honestly have no clue why things are so godd.

It makes me wonder if we're going to see the dip in December, when people sell in anticipation of Taxmageddon. I had actually made some moves in May in anticipation of the dip that never came, and also took positions to buy into the dip. Obviously I'm not going to complain about making more if I stayed because there's never a shame in taking a profit. It's something you didn't have before.
 
Re: The Stock Market thread: BUY! BUY! BUY! Sell, sell, sell...

after the crash in '08 I was thinking about pulling the trigger on a bunch of AAPL at $80, which I thought was way under priced. I didn't do it, and then I thought I missed the boat after it doubled. Now I'm really kicking myself, although I might have already cashed out
 
Re: The Stock Market thread: BUY! BUY! BUY! Sell, sell, sell...

It makes me wonder if we're going to see the dip in December, when people sell in anticipation of Taxmageddon. I had actually made some moves in May in anticipation of the dip that never came, and also took positions to buy into the dip. Obviously I'm not going to complain about making more if I stayed because there's never a shame in taking a profit. It's something you didn't have before.

I think it might have been Bernard Baruch who said he never saw a man do wrong by taking profit. I always expect the summer dip and also expect the xmas rally into the new year (as pension moeny gets added and deployed either at the end or the beginning of the year). But this year, something is different. I, like everyone else suffered great losses back 4 years ago and bottomed out around 3/9/09. i am not one to buy and sell often and have been in the market for the long haul. When banks are offering less than 1% on CDs and Money Market accounts-I am forced to look for better results and yield elsewhere. I have never had a run like the past 4 months without even one week of losing anything. With the economy the way it is, unemployment the way it is, job creation the way it is, the headlines from Europe and Asia-I just cannot explain 16 consecutive weeks of gains. Normally there is at least some sort of crisis somewhere (a rebellion in Nigeria or a mid east flare up) or an announcement out of China or Japan that causes a sell off. It just seems like bad news is being ignored and only silver linings looked at. The market is up, oil is up, gold is up. Does this all make sense to you? What am I missing here?
 
Re: The Stock Market thread: BUY! BUY! BUY! Sell, sell, sell...

Inflation.

That would be an answer-except it looks like the government refuses to agree-the Social Security COLA for 2013 looks like it will be only 1.3% Although judging by my personal experience with my own bills a figure closer to 7-10% is a truer estimate.
 
Re: The Stock Market thread: BUY! BUY! BUY! Sell, sell, sell...

That would be an answer-except it looks like the government refuses to agree-the Social Security COLA for 2013 looks like it will be only 1.3% Although judging by my personal experience with my own bills a figure closer to 7-10% is a truer estimate.

Like in bubbles past it looks like there is localized inflation. The devaluation of the dollar naturally raises commodity prices and the stock market usually goes up for the same reason. There are extra dollars floating around trying to find a home. It will just take some time for them to trickle down to create broad-based inflation.
 
Re: The Stock Market thread: BUY! BUY! BUY! Sell, sell, sell...

Like in bubbles past it looks like there is localized inflation. The devaluation of the dollar naturally raises commodity prices and the stock market usually goes up for the same reason. There are extra dollars floating around trying to find a home. It will just take some time for them to trickle down to create broad-based inflation.

All quite sensible-but a continuous up trend for 16 consecutive weeks? Sort of like hitting red 16 times in a row on the roulette wheel-has not happened for me ever and i have been doing this since the 1960's. As I had mentioned earlier-this in spite of world events that have not always been rosy in the past 4 months.
 
Re: The Stock Market thread: BUY! BUY! BUY! Sell, sell, sell...

All quite sensible-but a continuous up trend for 16 consecutive weeks? Sort of like hitting red 16 times in a row on the roulette wheel-has not happened for me ever and i have been doing this since the 1960's. As I had mentioned earlier-this in spite of world events that have not always been rosy in the past 4 months.

Did this happen the last time we had a bull in the mid-2000's? How about the dot-com boom of the late 90's?
 
Re: The Stock Market thread: BUY! BUY! BUY! Sell, sell, sell...

Did this happen the last time we had a bull in the mid-2000's? How about the dot-com boom of the late 90's?

FD-As I had mentioned-this hasn't happened for me from the year 1964 until the present. I have had some great stretches and some tremendous up swings-but not without at least some pull back. There is almost always some profit taking on the way up-or some european or asian event that has enough of an influence that the market slides for a week. Just not happening this time and although i am certainly not complaining-I am suspicious. I am very tempted to take some off the table at this stage.

Edit-after the close of the NYSE today-make that 17 weeks up in a row. Only a very slight amount up this week but still up none-the-less. Quite a streak.
 
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Re: The Stock Market thread: BUY! BUY! BUY! Sell, sell, sell...

FD-As I had mentioned-this hasn't happened for me from the year 1964 until the present. I have had some great stretches and some tremendous up swings-but not without at least some pull back. There is almost always some profit taking on the way up-or some european or asian event that has enough of an influence that the market slides for a week. Just not happening this time and although i am certainly not complaining-I am suspicious. I am very tempted to take some off the table at this stage.

Edit-after the close of the NYSE today-make that 17 weeks up in a row. Only a very slight amount up this week but still up none-the-less. Quite a streak.

I know I kept telling people in 2007 to sell. They didn't listen. I told them in summer of 2008 to sell. They didn't listen. I am calling December of this year, the last week of it, to be precise.
 
Re: The Stock Market thread: BUY! BUY! BUY! Sell, sell, sell...

I know I kept telling people in 2007 to sell. They didn't listen. I told them in summer of 2008 to sell. They didn't listen. I am calling December of this year, the last week of it, to be precise.

Obviously the thought of selling is to insure less loss of equity value in the event of a severe downturn. The problem is what can you do with the proceeds to continue a decent income or dividend stream. With banks paying bupkus (best reasonable length CD I could find is 1.2%) if the market continues downward for any length of time one risks having to use the equity to replace income. Which in turn makes it more difficult to reinvest and get the same amount of yield as before. With the Fed (and the rest of the world) keeping interest rates this low for so long-this has been the most challenging period of time for me. I am not one to take on much risk. But the level of safety decreases dramatically if one tries to beat bank or federally insured interest vehicles by much. But as you are predicting-the sky will eventually fall-I just suspect it will be a bit longer than what you are forecasting. I am looking at March 2013 through May 2013 for the stuff to hit the fan.
 
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