What's new
By:
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

unofan said:
Point of order, it's unclear from the postings in this thread whether the governor is prohibiting discrimination, or prohibiting legislation/ordinances/etc. that prohibits discrimination.

I'm assuming the latter.is what actually happened, but I think Joe is arguing the former occurred, which reading the initial post, I can understand how he got there.
Click to expand...

This is Whitmer, the new Dem MI governor. She is pro-LGBT. She is prohibiting the homophobic Nuremburg Laws the MI GOP used in the past to whip up their orcs. It's a Good Thing, and part of the ongoing De-Nazification of Michigan and Wisconsin.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Kepler said:
This is Whitmer, the new Dem MI governor. She is pro-LGBT. She is prohibiting the homophobic Nuremburg Laws the MI GOP used in the past to whip up their orcs. It's a Good Thing, and part of the ongoing De-Nazification of Michigan and Wisconsin.
Click to expand...

That's going to take awhile as long as the state legs remain red.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

FadeToBlack&Gold said:
That's going to take awhile as long as the state legs remain red.
Click to expand...

Won't it take approximately 2-4 years which is when an independent commission rewrites the lines after the 2020 census? I'm not sure if the law passed by the citizens in November requires a redrawing in time for the 2020 elections...
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Rover said:
Won't it take approximately 2-4 years which is when an independent commission rewrites the lines after the 2020 census? I'm not sure if the law passed by the citizens in November requires a redrawing in time for the 2020 elections...
Click to expand...

Probably 4 years, since we need the results of the 2020 census before we can really attempt to unskew the lines. Even once Dump is gone though, I am not convinced that rich white women in Oakland and Macomb County won't go back to voting Republican because, "God forbid my husband and I should have to give up one of our three late-model Cadillacs, so that the blacks and Mexicans in Pontiac, Southfield, and Detroit can get better education and affordable healthcare."
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

FadeToBlack&Gold said:
Probably 4 years, since we need the results of the 2020 census before we can really attempt to unskew the lines.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. VA is unskewing the GOP gerrymander of our state leg districts right now, they aren't waiting for the next census. There's no reason to wait: we have the raw 2010 data. If I read joe's comments correctly MD is doing the same thing to undo the Dem House district gerrymander there.

We need national standards for non-partisan, objective, competitive redistricting at every level. There are tons of ways to do it that keep the parties' greedy little hands out of them.
 
Last edited:
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Kepler said:
Not necessarily. VA is unskewing the GOP gerrymander of our state leg districts right now, they aren't waiting for the next census. There's no reason to wait: we have the raw 2010 data. If I read joe's comments correctly MD is doing the same thing to undo the Dem House district gerrymander there.

We need national standards for non-partisan, objective, competitive redistricting at every level. There are tons of ways to do it that keep the parties' greedy little hands out of them.
Click to expand...

We do but the SCOTUS keeps punting on that. In terms of VA they got screwed on racial discrimination which is always a sure loser in court particularly since usually reliable conservative Clarence Thomas isn't on board. For MI and NC in particular they need to follow the PA model and take their case to a friendly state Supreme Court to get the gerrymandering thrown out. NC can and I think will do that now as there's a clear Dem majority on the court. For MI I think it depends on the one GOP nominated justice who voted in favor of allowing the anti-gerrymandering referendum questions on the ballot. IIRC she's the swing vote now.

WI the Dems need to win an election this year to replace a Dem and then win next year to replace a Gooper. That will put them in the same position to get a favorable ruling.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Rover said:
We do but the SCOTUS keeps punting on that. In terms of VA they got screwed on racial discrimination which is always a sure loser in court particularly since usually reliable conservative Clarence Thomas isn't on board. For MI and NC in particular they need to follow the PA model and take their case to a friendly state Supreme Court to get the gerrymandering thrown out. NC can and I think will do that now as there's a clear Dem majority on the court. For MI I think it depends on the one GOP nominated justice who voted in favor of allowing the anti-gerrymandering referendum questions on the ballot. IIRC she's the swing vote now.

WI the Dems need to win an election this year to replace a Dem and then win next year to replace a Gooper. That will put them in the same position to get a favorable ruling.
Click to expand...

I can see why the Court has tried to stay out of it. It was preferable to give the states a chance to take care of it but the states have proven they are corrupt AF and most can't seem to stop their own parties from denying their populations "a republican form of government."

Baker v. Carr demonstrated that the Court will take action if there is a severe enough problem. Now, with a sizeable number of purely partisan Republican hacks sitting on this Court (Thomas, Alito, Kavanaugh) it will be up to Roberts and Gorsuch to admit that voter suppression is Unconstitutional, but things have gotten so ludicrous perhaps they finally will. I'm not sure about Gorsuch but Roberts seems inclined to have his Court not viewed by history as totally fraudulent. He'll never get off the 1%'s tip, but on other issues he seems nearly capable of distinguishing between right and wrong.

unofan can speak to this with much more knowledge.
 
MissThundercat said:
No, joe, this order means people can't discriminate against me.
Click to expand...

Which is what I thought. I had to parse through the post and figure out prohibiting anti was the same as saying you can't discriminate based on sexual orientation. Fine. Treat others as you wish to be treated.
 
Kepler said:
Not necessarily. VA is unskewing the GOP gerrymander of our state leg districts right now, they aren't waiting for the next census. There's no reason to wait: we have the raw 2010 data. If I read joe's comments correctly MD is doing the same thing to undo the Dem House district gerrymander there.

We need national standards for non-partisan, objective, competitive redistricting at every level. There are tons of ways to do it that keep the parties' greedy little hands out of them.
Click to expand...

Great idea, but a lot of oxen are going to be gored if you eliminate safe districts.

VA has gotten down to the state level. Maryland needs to get there too, but won't.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

joecct said:
Great idea, but a lot of oxen are going to be gored if you eliminate safe districts.
Click to expand...

All the more reason. Let voters pick their Members, not Members pick their voters.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

Kepler said:
I can see why the Court has tried to stay out of it. It was preferable to give the states a chance to take care of it but the states have proven they are corrupt AF and most can't seem to stop their own parties from denying their populations "a republican form of government."

Baker v. Carr demonstrated that the Court will take action if there is a severe enough problem. Now, with a sizeable number of purely partisan Republican hacks sitting on this Court (Thomas, Alito, Kavanaugh) it will be up to Roberts and Gorsuch to admit that voter suppression is Unconstitutional, but things have gotten so ludicrous perhaps they finally will. I'm not sure about Gorsuch but Roberts seems inclined to have his Court not viewed by history as totally fraudulent. He'll never get off the 1%'s tip, but on other issues he seems nearly capable of distinguishing between right and wrong.

unofan can speak to this with much more knowledge.
Click to expand...

Frankly I don't want to wait that long. Dems should try to have state court draw new lines in NC in time for 2020 elections. Same thing with MI although its possible the new law does that anyway. The best I feel we can hope for out of Roberts is ruling blatant partisan line drawing unconstitutional but then leaving the remedies up to the states which puts us pretty close to where we were. Dems need to either 1) put citizens referendums on the ballot that clean up the process (AZ, FL and now MI) and/or 2) win state supreme court seats wherever possible and have GOP lines declared unconstitutional (PA, NC, maybe MI and hopefully WI in the near future).

Despite an inept state party and total GOP control of the government for the past 20 years, the Florida delegation is 14/13 R/D. Is that because Florida Republicans are magnanimous when it comes to redistricting? No, its because the voters in the state passed a law banning a lot of games that Goopers tend to play which has led to much fairer maps.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

joecct said:
No argument from me.
Click to expand...

Still?

If correct, that means gerrymandering currently gives the GOP 18 net House seats solely due to cheating (+25 - 7). If districts were fair the current House breakdown would be D +72 (253 - 181).

If you're still with us, well, I applaud you sincerely.
 
Last edited:
Kepler said:
Still?

If correct, that means gerrymandering currently gives the GOP 18 net House seats solely due to cheating (+25 - 7). If districts were fair the current House breakdown would be D +72 (253 - 181).

If you're still with us, well, I applaud you sincerely.
Click to expand...

If it means that, due to population, that the Ds have a built in unlesswetotallyscrewitupweowntheHouseforthenext50years, then so be it. Draw competitive districts, impose term limits (HA!) and we'll have a working Congreff again.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

joecct said:
If it means that, due to population, that the Ds have a built in unlesswetotallyscrewitupweowntheHouseforthenext50years, then so be it. Draw competitive districts, impose term limits (HA!) and we'll have a working Congreff again.
Click to expand...

Nothing is for long in politics. Today we do have an advantage and it will get bigger until the Republicans finally give up on their Leni Riefenstahl Revival, but every generation kills its parents so in 20 years the political landscape will look very different, again, which is healthy.

Also: term limits sound good but they are terrible. They only give even more power to lobbyists because they are the only ones who understand how things work. There really is a Deep State, and it's money. If you truly want to drain the swamp you have to get the money out. That means public financing of elections, 100% transparency, and killing McCutcheon and Citizens United with fire.
 
Kepler said:
Nothing is for long in politics. Today we do have an advantage and it will get bigger until the Republicans finally give up on their Leni Riefenstahl Revival, but every generation kills its parents so in 20 years the political landscape will look very different, again, which is healthy.

Also: term limits sound good but they are terrible. They only give even more power to lobbyists because they are the only ones who understand how things work. There really is a Deep State, and it's money. If you truly want to drain the swamp you have to get the money out. That means public financing of elections, 100% transparency, and killing McCutcheon and Citizens United with fire.
Click to expand...

Congreff should not be lifetime employment. 30 years is enough.
 
Re: The States: At Least Michigan is Better Than Indiana

It'd help if Congress could not be decades behind the march of technology. The last two years of listening to 70 year old men debate social media has been painful.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top