The scam of corn ethonal

[walrus]

Re: The scam of corn ethonal

I would be stunned if you found anything more than E10 in Maine, unlabeled.

Maines underground tanks regs are some of the toughest in the country, if a piping or tank product isn't listed for E20, you're breaking the law in Maine. So I would doubt E20 is around here also

 

[Craig P.]

Re: The scam of corn ethonal

• Stop subsidizing energy. Let the free market dictate energy price flows naturally rather than have lobbyists argue on their behalf. This includes coal, oil, and natural gas.

I mostly agree with this, but I do think that there's a role to be played in assisting in getting new technology to a critical mass given the barriers to entry. That would need to be done very judiciously, with a close eye toward ensuring that anything that gets any sort of "official blessing" actually projects to being viable (unlike corn ethanol).

There is interesting non-ethanol stuff being researched. As one example, I have a friend who works at a company that's working on catalyzed cracking of softwood feedstock into gasoline.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The scam of corn ethonal

oh.
I read about how here on the other side of the world, drug stores are sold out of iodine pills. Stupid people aggravate me.

Agreed. Radioactive particles have been found as far away as England, but Europeans seem to have a far better understanding of what radiation truly means than idiotic Americans. Then again, Europeans are more sophisticated than Americans on a great wealth of topics. I equate the morons who are stocking up on iodine with those morons who say anyone who doesn't agree with them is Hitler: it's a public service so we know better than to treat them seriously.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: The scam of corn ethonal

Every available energy source has a trade-off, both environmentally and economically. To me, the question of how to balance those isn't a science question, but a policy question.

I don't know the "correct" answer, but I do question, in general, the logic behind giving subsidies to corporations and if that is actually money well spent.

Agreed, there is no such thing as a free lunch even with my beloved algae. To me, acceptance on the matter is paramount both for individuals to understand and for society to understand. What oil has allowed us to do as a society is nothing short of amazing. Our population has literally skyrocketed because of the prevalence of petroleum. While we have unforgivable disasters in oil spills, we must remain astute that these are the costs incurred from tapping something that has given us infinitely more.

Just to give an idea here, let’s consider solar and wind both of which are considered very ‘green’. Am I against them? Not any more than nuclear, or oil. But what about the downsides? Wind requires huge tracts of land, kills a lot of wildlife, and produces very little energy. Since it isn’t always running, one must rely on coal powered generators for energy when we need it. Same with solar. Also, anything that requires battery technology or generator technology ( neodymium) has a downside. Consider that we import approximately 30% of our oil from OPEC, and we wish to sever ourselves from OPEC in the name of energy independence. Yet, nearly 95% of rare earths including neodymium come from one place, china. Yes, only a single source for a material required for the wind and solar industries. Yet our government pushes it for the sake of ‘energy independence’. This goes beyond bad policy, it’s a flat out lie.

To be clear here, I wanted to make a difference in this field. I tried to make the algae thing happen. I really did. However, when delving into these matters, it was akin to becoming ‘unplugged from the matrix’. I saw how stupid the entire system was, how bad our energy policy was, and ultimately how I wouldn’t be able to get algae off the ground at this stage in life This post is merely a reflection of my utmost dislike for corn ethanol and how its worthless/ subsidy driven. Fact is ethonal would be out of business if it weren’t for presidential favoritism and its stupid blends. It’s a product made to be drank, not put in your car.

Pop quiz time; what famous state is the largest producer of corn ethanol. What does it have in common with presidential elections ?

Alpha/ walrus. Thanks for the info on E20 etc. didn’t know that. More reason to dislike the blend.

 

[Tundra]

Re: The scam of corn ethonal

To be fair on the food prices thing, the federal government is still paying farmers not to grow corn. This essentially creates a price floor and prevents farmers from undercutting each other. The Department of Agriculture has a practice they started in 2007 where will be paid half of your subsidy to not farm, to farm but on the condition you only sell to a buyer that will use the said corn to produce ethanol.

It seems like the airwaves are inundated with corn producers: sugar is sugar, your body doesn't know the difference. I guess HFCS (High Fructose Corn Syrup) is getting a bad rap so they applied with FDA to change it to Corn Sugar.

I wonder if corn producers ever debunked the Princeton University study on High Fructose Corn Syrup (modified corn starch) (pending: Corn Sugar) and obesity.

Especially the part about Corn Sugar causing more weight gain vs regular cane sugar with rats. So we subsidize farming (corn), to need more medical treatment for diabetes, heart disease etc... related to obesity, and spend more and more on medical bills. more money for corporations.

Second, as a result of the manufacturing process for high-fructose corn syrup, the fructose molecules in the sweetener are free and unbound, ready for absorption and utilization. In contrast, every fructose molecule in sucrose that comes from cane sugar or beet sugar is bound to a corresponding glucose molecule and must go through an extra metabolic step before it can be utilized.

This creates a fascinating puzzle. The rats in the Princeton study became obese by drinking high-fructose corn syrup, but not by drinking sucrose.

In the 40 years since the introduction of high-fructose corn syrup as a cost-effective sweetener in the American diet, rates of obesity in the U.S. have skyrocketed, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. In 1970, around 15 percent of the U.S. population met the definition for obesity; today, roughly one-third of the American adults are considered obese, the CDC reported. High-fructose corn syrup is found in a wide range of foods and beverages, including fruit juice, soda, cereal, bread, yogurt, ketchup and mayonnaise. On average, Americans consume 60 pounds of the sweetener per person every year.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: The scam of corn ethonal

On a somewhat unrelated note, I have drastically decreased my HFCS intake in the past few months and notice my energy levels going up, my core lifts go up, and my body fat (slightly) go down. I drink alcohol too! Not that HFCS is the root cause , but it seems to be a correlation since reducing my intake.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The scam of corn ethonal

Priceless, allow me to elaborate more on algae: the air force is willing to buy a gallon of algae fuel for something like 60 dollars. That’s good.

That's good? Source? The DoD currently pays $3.03 for a gallon of JP-8. The energy density of algae fuel might (or might not be) a little better than JP-8, depending on the exact process used to extract it (none of which have ever been scaled for production), but it's nowhere near 20x better.

The DoD is certainly plenty interested in alternative fuels (see, for example, this conference), but they're interested from the standpoint of not wanting to get caught with their shorts down once petroleum-based fuel prices rise to the point that biofuels offer better value. If it costs $60 to make a gallon of algae fuel, then the DoD will start using it on a wide scale when JP-8 costs $60.01 per gallon, and not a minute sooner. They're just doing the research now to see what it will take to be able to make that transition when it happens many, many years in the future.

(I'm an aerospace engineer with 17 years experience designing fuel systems, primarily for DoD aircraft, and have served on an AFRL board overseeing initiatives on more efficient aircraft systems)

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The scam of corn ethonal

Since overpopulation is a problem, clearly we need to utilize the energy sources most likely to kill people and/or render them incapable of reproducing.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: The scam of corn ethonal

That's good? Source? The DoD currently pays $3.03 for a gallon of JP-8. The energy density of algae fuel might (or might not be) a little better than JP-8, depending on the exact process used to extract it (none of which have ever been scaled for production), but it's nowhere near 20x better.

The DoD is certainly plenty interested in alternative fuels (see, for example, this conference), but they're interested from the standpoint of not wanting to get caught with their shorts down once petroleum-based fuel prices rise to the point that biofuels offer better value. If it costs $60 to make a gallon of algae fuel, then the DoD will start using it on a wide scale when JP-8 costs $60.01 per gallon, and not a minute sooner. They're just doing the research now to see what it will take to be able to make that transition when it happens many, many years in the future.

(I'm an aerospace engineer with 17 years experience designing fuel systems, primarily for DoD aircraft, and have served on an AFRL board overseeing initiatives on more efficient aircraft systems)

I had the source in my notebook, but that got stolen in september along with my business laptop. That said, the source is now officially MIA. It was probably a CEO from solix, solazyme, or SG.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/business/articles/2010/09/30/20100930biz-navyalgae0930.html

Solazyme was selling 40,000 gallons at roughly 60 dollars per gallon. This could be the figure I was referring too, but am not sure. As I said before my edit, maybe the cost has something to do without accounting for subsidies. If you count subsidies in our oil prices at the pump, Americans are actually paying more than just the listed price.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: The scam of corn ethonal

Since overpopulation is a problem, clearly we need to utilize the energy sources most likely to kill people and/or render them incapable of reproducing.

None will do this ...at all. you either use energy OR you avoid the side effects...never both. Every energy source will have massive drawbacks and pose health hazards to humans or otherwise. Always despise the free lunch.

 

[Patman]

Re: The scam of corn ethonal

I mostly agree with this, but I do think that there's a role to be played in assisting in getting new technology to a critical mass given the barriers to entry. That would need to be done very judiciously, with a close eye toward ensuring that anything that gets any sort of "official blessing" actually projects to being viable (unlike corn ethanol).

There is interesting non-ethanol stuff being researched. As one example, I have a friend who works at a company that's working on catalyzed cracking of softwood feedstock into gasoline.

The problem is we're looking to bless on the hope rather than on the basis of the best information given... a lot of these solutions are not buoyed on facts or information but rather hearts and hopes. Corn ethanol ticks me off because we're harming ourselves at the precipice of a bad solution that feels good. It does nothing for us and I've heard it does bad things to cars in general. So, at the end of the day, the car has be in for repair sooner and everything we eat is much more expensive. Its a regressive policy for the United States end of story.

You want to help curtail fuel use... make electricity cheap... uranium, thorium, do what you need... I saw a video of a talk saying that we may run out of oil but we'll have electricity to see us into the next forever and more. The only way you'll get a catalystic change is either to constrain yourself (a folly if there ever was one) or to make some other mode become more efficient. If electric becomes dirt cheap then maybe people start pushing those modes of transport more often... maybe that bullet train becomes economically feasible (hypothetically... I don't know how the costs run).

edit: the real problem with "green tech" is its associated ethos... and that ethos is disconnected from matters of operational efficiency but rather in rather loose senses of naturalism, eastern religious spirituality, and various other man and nature dualisms. When you impose a restriction on yourself you limit the solution set and thus limit what you are capable of. "Green tech" is just that... a restriction placed upon ourselves subject to that ethos.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I have drastically decreased my HFCS intake in the past few months and notice my energy levels going up, my core lifts go up, and my body fat (slightly) go down. I drink alcohol too! Not that HFCS is the root cause , but it seems to be a correlation since reducing my intake.

Corn sugar is another problem for another day... I've basically eliminated it (ok, I broke down for some mini-eggs yesterday) don't feel much different in general, but if you don't need it don't use it. But yeah, seeing a video about the biologic outputs of HFCS (think things that end in -hyde) has to give you pause.

 

[Craig P.]

Re: The scam of corn ethonal

It seems like the airwaves are inundated with corn producers: sugar is sugar, your body doesn't know the difference.

Which sugar? Fructose is not the same as sucrose.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The scam of corn ethonal

None will do this ...at all. you either use energy OR you avoid the side effects...never both. Every energy source will have massive drawbacks and pose health hazards to humans or otherwise. Always despise the free lunch.

I don't think you read his note carefully.

I didn't either but it's Bakunin so I know exactly what it says...

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The scam of corn ethonal

I hate it when an awesome post goes unappreciated. That was some of my finest work, and I didn't even mention abortion.

 

[pirate]

Re: The scam of corn ethonal

(I'm an aerospace engineer with 17 years experience designing fuel systems, primarily for DoD aircraft, and have served on an AFRL board overseeing initiatives on more efficient aircraft systems)

Violation!!!!

although this particular thread appears to be a rare exception, people with actual subject matter expertise are not encouraged to post on same...please stick to discussions of conference superiority, politics or whether the puck actually crossed the line...thanks

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The scam of corn ethonal

I hate it when an awesome post goes unappreciated. That was some of my finest work, and I didn't even mention abortion.

Just read it. I agree.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: The scam of corn ethonal

Violation!!!!

although this particular thread appears to be a rare exception, people with actual subject matter expertise are not encouraged to post on same...please stick to discussions of conference superiority, politics or whether the puck actually crossed the line...thanks

actually i am glad someone who knows something can keep things in order. As I already said, that number was strictly from memory, but I should have been more clear about it. however, it seems that my memory is better than I think it is.

In 2009 the Naval Air Systems Command has asked for 40,000 gallons of Hydrotreated Renewable HRJ-5 only (JP-5 jet fuel from bio-based feedstocks) in a request for proposal issued by the Defense Energy Support Center (now called DLA Energy). Initial laboratory analyses and rig testing is planned to consume 1,500 gallons; the static engine tests, 16,500 gallons; and the flight tests, 22,000 gallons.
On 31 August 2009 the DLA Energy awarded to Sustainable Oils $2,664,000 for delivery of 40,000 gallons (base quantity) and 150,000 gallons (option quantity - to be exercised at the Government's option) of Hydrotreated Renewable HRJ-5 only. This makes $67 per gallon. Another source says the DLA Energy awarded in early 2010 a $2.7 million contract to Sustainable Oils of Seattle and Bozeman, Montana, for this 40,000 gallons of camelina-based fuel. This makes $67.5 per gallon. For camelina, the current price tag is said to be 30-something dollars per gallon

On 1 September 2009, DLA Energy awarded to San Francisco-based company Solazyme a contract worth $223,500 for delivering 1,500 gallons of algae derived jet fuel (HRJ-5) for testing and certification by the US Navy. This makes $149 per gallon.

On 24 September 2009, the Navy paid to Solazyme $424 per gallon for the acquisition of 20,055 gallons of renewable algae derived F-76 Naval distillate fuel for use in Navy ships. The contract price included Research and development costs. The cost of the fuel is now estimated to be around 60- some dollars a gallon.

Associated Press news on 29 October 2010 reported that the U.S. Navy in September 2010 ordered more than 150,000 gallons of algal derived HRF-76 fuel for the U.S. Navy's testing and certification program in 2010-2011. But Solazyme’s announcement didn’t mention anything about the money. Meanwhile in August 2010 the U.S. Department of Energy - whose goal is to scale up production of commercially viable biofuels - awarded the company $21.8 million under the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act to expand its biggest production facility at Cherokee Pharmaceuticals in Riverside, Pa.

What I recall was that DOD was willing to pay "X" now. so maybe they were referring to contracts for fixed amounts of specialized fuel NOT intended for large scale consumption, but other uses? They were not specific at the conference, but it seems clear that the overly high prices are, as said here, for development purposes.

Here is another .com source, so take it for what its worth. If anyone can correct me here, please do.

http://www.consumerenergyreport.com/2010/10/08/us-navy-pays-big-bucks-for-biofuels/

 

[MadTownSioux]

Re: The scam of corn ethonal

Name one energy source that is renewable within a product life cycle. okay. your turn.

Cow Poop!! Hey, this is the Dairy State.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The scam of corn ethonal

What I recall was that DOD was willing to pay "X" now. so maybe they were referring to contracts for fixed amounts of specialized fuel NOT intended for large scale consumption, but other uses? They were not specific at the conference, but it seems clear that the overly high prices are, as said here, for development purposes.

Ah, yes - that must be the source of our mismatch. I easily believe that the DoD currently has to pay upwards of $60 per gallon to get startup companies to produce small batches of fuel - that just goes to show how much development work is needed in order to bring the price of alternatives in line with petrofuels. Of course, the price of petrofuels will be rising, too, so the prices will probably end up crossing somewhere closer to $25 per gallon perhaps 20-30 years from now.

 

[Almington]

Re: The scam of corn ethonal

Of course, the price of petrofuels will be rising, too, so the prices will probably end up crossing somewhere closer to $25 per gallon perhaps 20-30 years from now.

That alone is quite the though. An 8-fold increase in the price is something that should make everyone take pause because look at the effect that just a small increase in gas prices has had.