The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

[Rover]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Then repeal the law that forces that sort of treatment. It sounds like a good trade-off to me.

That has as much a chance of happening as Ron Paul being elected President.

Look, I agree with the idea that people should be a lot more productive and self reliant. The problem is, they're not. That's the reality (there's that word again) of the situation right now. Hence the idea of everybody has to get insurance. Grifters (love that word) are now paying up. So are hypochondriacs. In fact with any insurance plan I've had if you go to the ER needlessly they charge you for it. It would be nice if 1) people didn't delay getting care until it required an ER visit, 2) people didn't go to the ER needlessly, and 3) medical professionals didn't have to run tests once you're there for things that could have been treated by their regular doctor or which should have been caught years ago before it became serious. Unfortunately there's only two options that I've seen:

1) Allow ER's to deny coverage if you can't produce proof that you can pay which is ridiculous and unworkable, or

2) Require everyone to get insurance to get down on freeloaders.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Like I said, I don't mind helping out people in trouble; I do mind being taken advantage of. In this case I am far angrier at the despicable practices of certain career politicians for fomenting this kind of system than I am for the poor hapless folk who are condemned to a lifetime of involuntary servitude under it.

Funny. I feel exactly the same way about the Warfare State.

I'll trade you one for the other, any time.

(I have a feeling this would actually be a win-win for you personally, but there are plenty of folks caterwauling about the Terrible Tragedy of Welfare Plantations and other myths who would get very angry about it.)

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

That has as much a chance of happening as Ron Paul being elected President.

Look, I agree with the idea that people should be a lot more productive and self reliant. The problem is, they're not. That's the reality (there's that word again) of the situation right now. Hence the idea of everybody has to get insurance. Grifters (love that word) are now paying up. So are hypochondriacs. In fact with any insurance plan I've had if you go to the ER needlessly they charge you for it. It would be nice if 1) people didn't delay getting care until it required an ER visit, 2) people didn't go to the ER needlessly, and 3) medical professionals didn't have to run tests once you're there for things that could have been treated by their regular doctor or which should have been caught years ago before it became serious. Unfortunately there's only two options that I've seen:

1) Allow ER's to deny coverage if you can't produce proof that you can pay which is ridiculous and unworkable, or

2) Require everyone to get insurance to get down on freeloaders.

So because people aren't productive and self reliant, we have to reward them for that fact? No wonder people behave badly in this society. The government promotes it!

How is an Emergency Room denying care unworkable? It involves a two letter word.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

So because people aren't productive and self reliant, we have to reward them for that fact? No wonder people behave badly in this society. The government promotes it!

How is an Emergency Room denying care unworkable? It involves a two letter word.

Awesome. We agree. Stop them at the door. No insurance, no proof you can pay, no service. That means of course if you're bleeding to the point of death at the Emergency Room and can pay but have no proof that you can or could we're just going to have to let you die cause what if you couldn't?

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Funny. I feel exactly the same way about the Warfare State.

I'll trade you one for the other, any time.

You seem to have me confused with someone else. It was President Eisenhower, a former general, who warned us about the dangers of the "military industrial complex" and I find Eisenhower ranks pretty high on my list of Presidents. I am not a Republican partisan; I am merely a concerned citizen who is increasingly uncomfortable with the idea of invoking "those terrible rich people" and those "poor deprived innocents" for short-term temporary partisan advantage.

Frankly, I'm not even sure what you mean by the "Warfare State." In my history textbooks, going to war was the first response for any embattled incumbent government to avoid necessary internal social change; it was a way to distract people from domestic problems and try to exploit a natural sense of pride in one's country.

I do agree that the "Welfare State" and the "Warfare State" have one extremely significant element in common: totally cynical, manipulative leaders who care nothing about the lives of the people they exploit to remain in power no matter what the cost might be to others.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Awesome. We agree. Stop them at the door. No insurance, no proof you can pay, no service. That means of course if you're bleeding to the point of death at the Emergency Room and can pay but have no proof that you can or could we're just going to have to let you die cause what if you couldn't?

That'd be up to the judgement of the ER. Don't assume the negative case. Just because they have the ability to deny you doesn't necessarily mean they will.

 

[Rover]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

So because people aren't productive and self reliant, we have to reward them for that fact? No wonder people behave badly in this society. The government promotes it!

How is an Emergency Room denying care unworkable? It involves a two letter word.

As we have no proof that you are either productive or self reliant, one has to wonder if you're being rewarded for the very behavior you abhor.

The ER scenario is unworkable because it will never be enacted into law. You are free to start a citizens initiative in your state to get this passed if you'd like. However, if someone's in a life or death situation where every second counts, or if they may be incoherent due to their injuries, I'm not so sure going through their pockets to secure payment up-front is the best use of the ER staff's time....

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

As we have no proof that you are either productive or self reliant, one has to wonder if you're being rewarded for the very behavior you abhor.

The ER scenario is unworkable because it will never be enacted into law. You are free to start a citizens initiative in your state to get this passed if you'd like. However, if someone's in a life or death situation where every second counts, or if they may be incoherent due to their injuries, I'm not so sure going through their pockets to secure payment up-front is the best use of the ER staff's time....

Someone didn't read post #206...

 

[GrinCDXX]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

That'd be up to the judgement of the ER. Don't assume the negative case. Just because they have the ability to deny you doesn't necessarily mean they will.

But in your world it should be completely legal for hospital staff to force someone to show proof of ability to pay before they prevent them from bleeding out?

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

But in your world it should be completely legal for hospital staff to force someone to show proof of ability to pay before they prevent them from bleeding out?

I forgot that liberals lack common sense.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

But in your world it should be completely legal for hospital staff to force someone to show proof of ability to pay before they prevent them from bleeding out?

Preventing someone from bleeding out is not all that expensive. Even an ambulance ride isn't that bad. The real expense occurs on the back end, after the patient is admitted to the hospital (ICU or otherwise) - there's plenty of time to decide if they are worth saving before the bulk of the expenditure.

The question is: should we make that decision?

 

[Rover]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Someone didn't read post #206...

I read it but like most conservative ideas its more applicable in fantasyland than the good ol' USA. Perhaps you can keep us updated on how your petition drive is going to get your proposal on the ballot?

 

[GrinCDXX]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

I forgot that liberals lack common sense.

Ahh yes, a vague personal attack based on...nothing.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Preventing someone from bleeding out is not all that expensive. Even an ambulance ride isn't that bad. The real expense occurs on the back end, after the patient is admitted to the hospital (ICU or otherwise) - there's plenty of time to decide if they are worth saving before the bulk of the expenditure.

The question is: should we make that decision?

Yes, we should. We need to start providing long term care solely based on ability to pay. And given how much my visit to the hospital this week for a kidney stone cost, my guess is we'll be cutting some major dollars very quickly. We may be able to pay off all our debt with the money saved and we'll only have to kill off a bunch of poor people to do it.

 

[leswp1]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

So because people aren't productive and self reliant, we have to reward them for that fact? No wonder people behave badly in this society. The government promotes it!

How is an Emergency Room denying care unworkable? It involves a two letter word.

That'd be up to the judgement of the ER. Don't assume the negative case. Just because they have the ability to deny you doesn't necessarily mean they will.

Do you really think it is possible to deny care? It is against the law to deny care to someone who needs urgent care. Have you not been paying attention? Anyone who doesn't provide care puts their license and the Hospital at risk for liability. The Insurance co and the hospitals tried to stop that but the law is if the patient feels there is an emergency you cannot assume they should know it wasn't one and have to treat. You do not need to provide ongoing chronic care but you are responsible to make sure they are stable enough to be discharged. This means if someone comes in after trauma you could spend a few hundred thousand dollars stabilizing a really messed up person before you can stop.

 

[joecct]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Les

That's the metric right now. It's a good one IMO. But what set of future circumstances could cause that to change?

 

[leswp1]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Les
That's the metric right now. It's a good one IMO. But what set of future circumstances could cause that to change?

I can't see one. That would be letting people die and that is not going to happen. People think asst suicide shouldn't happen and those people are petitioning to die. Can't imagine a scenario where the general public would allow someone to die because they had no insurance. If someone comes in with a trauma, looks like they aren't covered, dies and then oops they find the coverage- hell to pay!

Some people have a strange dicotomy- they are incensed that people want to have assisted suicide or have an abortion yet they are incensed that people might receive free care and be freeloading. For those who are saying it is their Christian values for the former- conforming to what Jesus said- we are to take care of the sick, poor and weak. I confuses me to no end the same people who reject people doing things to their own body will with equal vehemence reject a means to help someone take care of that same body while blaming the person for not doing so. They are willing to force someone into continuing medical care, against their will but if someone wants medical care they reject the notion of providing it. I don't get it. I can't explain it away by saying the patient know better and be prepared. The person who is trying to die is not prepared to pay for further care either.

I am not articulating this well but it just makes no sense!

 

[Rover]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

I can't see one. That would be letting people die and that is not going to happen. People think asst suicide shouldn't happen and those people are petitioning to die. Can't imagine a scenario where the general public would allow someone to die because they had no insurance. If someone comes in with a trauma, looks like they aren't covered, dies and then oops they find the coverage- hell to pay!

Some people have a strange dicotomy- they are incensed that people want to have assisted suicide or have an abortion yet they are incensed that people might receive free care and be freeloading. For those who are saying it is their Christian values for the former- conforming to what Jesus said- we are to take care of the sick, poor and weak. I confuses me to no end the same people who reject people doing things to their own body will with equal vehemence reject a means to help someone take care of that same body while blaming the person for not doing so. They are willing to force someone into continuing medical care, against their will but if someone wants medical care they reject the notion of providing it. I don't get it. I can't explain it away by saying the patient know better and be prepared. The person who is trying to die is not prepared to pay for further care either.

I am not articulating this well but it just makes no sense!

Its makes very good sense. Its proof once again that conservative ideas such as the ones Flag is trying to promote have no application in the real world.

 

[leswp1]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Its makes very good sense. Its proof once again that conservative ideas such as the ones Flag is trying to promote have no application in the real world.

THis isn't about 'conservatives'. There are lots of people on both sides of the aisle who have those thoughts.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Sad Case of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

Its proof once again that conservative ideas ... have no application in the real world.

Sounds like you are ready to toss the Constitution aside, eh? as so many of the drafters were classic conservatives. I've always found The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin a very inspiring and helpful book myself, sounds like you have no use for it, either.

What is it about personal integrity that offends you so much, anyway?