The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Odd that you can't see the analogy. You ask us to consider your points of view on faith and religion when you just have a deep seeded hatred of those (shown by every third post) making your opinions totally untrustworthy. This is a free exchange of ideas...but on many topics, yours just don't have credibility.

This evidenced by how your bias makes it so that you can't even see that western society (today's global society) has been forever, directly, positively changed by Christianity in terms of health care, slavery, child labor, British/US democracy, charity, women's suffrage, civil rights, etc, etc. Note: I've posted reams of data validating all this. But then you talk about how stupid people with faith are. Ironic.

I can't really help you except to say from my point of view you are completely misunderstanding what I have been writing. The rest of your post is generalities. If you want to talk about a specific, we might be able to have a meeting of the minds. But up there in the airy clouds where you hold court and pass judgment, well, like I said, that's your thing, dude. To each his own.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I am disappointed the formal presser didn't include the words Whore of Babylon.

A New Hampshire state representative who once said Donald Trump is the only politician she believes in came to the Republican candidate’s defense during his tiff with Pope Francis on Thursday, calling the Pope “the anti-Christ.”

In response to her own Facebook post of three snippets of scripture from the Geneva Bible, Rep. Susan DeLemus (R) wrote: “The Pope is the anti-Christ. [sic] Do your research.”

She seems nice.

 

[leswp1]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Odd that you can't see the analogy. You ask us to consider your points of view on faith and religion when you just have a deep seeded hatred of those (shown by every third post) making your opinions totally untrustworthy. This is a free exchange of ideas...but on many topics, yours just don't have credibility.

This evidenced by how your bias makes it so that you can't even see that western society (today's global society) has been forever, directly, positively changed by Christianity in terms of health care, slavery, child labor, British/US democracy, charity, women's suffrage, civil rights, etc, etc. Note: I've posted reams of data validating all this. But then you talk about how stupid people with faith are. Ironic.

I don't think I have ever seen Kep say all of Christianity is evil or stupid. I have to admit I miss the deep seeded hatred in the posts you are reading. I see someone who is thoughtful and curious. I do not have a problem with Kep not believing as I do. Martin Luther taught us to question and think deeply about what Scripture says. I find the posts very stimulating. They make me not blindly believe but believe with thought. If Faith is deep, questioning should help make it deeper.

Christianity has had both profoundly negative and positive effects on the world. I must say I am very surprised you think Christianity should have credit for positive change in most of what you listed. There are many things done in the name of Christianity that have been horrific and not at all what I would imagine Christ had in mind. Being somewhat of a history buff most of those things were not condoned by the mainstream church until after secular grass roots movements were into them. Various branches of Christianity have actively and vociferously stood in the way of progress for all of the things you listed and some still do. Just some of the things that come to mind- Healers and herbalists were persecuted and killed as witches by the church over centuries, there are some Christian sects that still do not believe in many things medicine can offer. Currently the Lutheran Missouri Synod does not believe women should be in position of power, over the age of 12 boys man not be taught by women. Women are to bow to their men in many religious sects. The Puritans-settlers in Mass- where extremely insular and restricted many activities, punishing those who did not do what their beliefs required. Many of the Founding Fathers argued for separation of Church and State because of the what happened in their country of origin (they were not all Christian, they were Theists). The British govt was sig negatively effected by various Sovereigns with the backing of the Church- Mary burned people as heretics. Henry killed off Thomas a Becket and started his own church to make all his foibles OK (not necessarily in that order). The Church upheld various king's decrees all over Europe that clearly were for the benefit of cash getting to the church. Inquisition killed how many? The Church suppressed and killed the Jews, the Cathars, the serfs, and various other peoples... a Pope started the Crusades which killed how many innocent people? The list is endless. Not everything was done with evil intent but it may have been evil none the less. To ignore these or pretend Christianity has been wonderful always is not correct.

Change is not something religious organizations embrace easily. Not because God would want it that way but because humans are in charge and those in power are loath to give up that power. (Pope Francis is a notable exception and look how many Catholics, esp those in the upper echelons, are uncomfortable with him~) Christ did not ignore injustices in the world, in fact he taught they should be addressed. He called for those who were in error to see the error of their ways and then be embraced. There are, of course, many wonderful things that have happened in Christ's name. Just because negative things happened does not indict the entire history of Christianity but to ignore them is not right .

 

[unofan]

I am not brought up Catholic. My husband was and has left the 'Church' but not his faith. He worships with us at a Lutheran church but will not take communion there, only at a Catholic Church. My FIL taught Catechism and is still extremely involved. For yrs he was in a relationship with a woman whose brother was a priest. We had the most interesting discussions about Faith. The person who would expound the most on the 'greyness' in Faith was the priest. I have always been fascinated with how the Catholic church deals with Bible study- many of the doctrines specifically contradict the Bible. I never could understand how the Priest could list all the contradictions, bypass them and still believe as deeply as he did.

I came into the church in my late 20s. When I said stuff in the liturgy I was saying and listening to it. I run the HS discussion class at my church. Most of the kids have been brought up in the church. I am always astounded at how they are completely oblivious to what is in the service. They can say things by rote but if asked later what they said they have NO idea. If I ask what something means in the liturgy they don't even know it is in there. I watch their lips in the service. They are saying them. Like wallpaper. One of my challenges is to make them actually aware of what they are participating in. Blind faith is not my thing.

Most Catholic priests I've met do not teach Biblical literalism. It's the Word of God, but God works in mysterious ways and teaches through allegory as much as anything. Any contradictions are due to human error and human failings.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Now ya done it, les....

See, none of the people who did those horrible things were actually Christian. In fact, it turns out that NOBODY in all of history was a true Christian - unitl now. We are so blessed to live in the Age of 5mn_Major, who both teaches us true Christianity by his flawless example and sits in judgement to inform us exactly how all previous attempts have fallen short.

 

[joecct]

Now ya done it, les....

See, none of the people who did those horrible things were actually Christian. In fact, it turns out that NOBODY in all of history was a true Christian - unitl now. We are so blessed to live in the Age of 5mn_Major, who both teaches us true Christianity by his flawless example and sits in judgement to inform us exactly how all previous attempts have fallen short.

As Fr. Scalia said, nobody is perfect until perfected in Christ. We try to be good, but we fail. We try to follow the Rules, but fail. But in Christ there is forgiveness. But perfection for most of us cannot be attained in this life, which is why we Catholics pray for the dead and that their time in Purgatory will be short.

Hell is for those who spit in the face of God.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

So you're agreeing with me that all Christians are sinners, so the fact that someone can be shown to be a sinner does not disqualify him from being, in truth, a Christian. You must be just as puzzled as I am, then, why 5mn_Major insists that no Christian in history has done anything wrong.

 

[joecct]

So you're agreeing with me that all Christians are sinners, so the fact that someone can be shown to be a sinner does not disqualify him from being, in truth, a Christian. You must be just as puzzled as I am, then, why 5mn_Major insists that no Christian in history has done anything wrong.

There have been exactly two perfect people who have ever walked on this planet - Christ and His Mother.

If you ask my wife, three (and it's not me)

 

[burd]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I can't speak for 5mn, particularly since I am not a Christian, but his past posts seem to place emphasis on the philosophy of Christianity rather than on the church or what might be called the religion of Christianity. And I have found most of his comments to pretty well reasoned and fair minded.

But he is a gopher fan, so he's obviously mentally defective to some extent.

 

[leswp1]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

As Fr. Scalia said, nobody is perfect until perfected in Christ. We try to be good, but we fail. We try to follow the Rules, but fail. But in Christ there is forgiveness. But perfection for most of us cannot be attained in this life, which is why we Catholics pray for the dead and that their time in Purgatory will be short.

Hell is for those who spit in the face of God.

Jesus also failed/questioned but was loved anyway

There have been exactly two perfect people who have ever walked on this planet - Christ and His Mother.

If you ask my wife, three (and it's not me)

The history of how Mary became revered in the Catholic church absolutely fascinates me. Historically she was a non-entity or little recognized as important until the Byzantine times when suddenly she was very important. The lack of attention to females, who were important to Jesus, is something that has always puzzled me. I struggle with the emphasis on Mary, other Saints, etc. to intervene when Jesus said, "Ask the Father." Anyone able to give an explanation of why you would not go directly to the Father and use an intermediary? Aren't you supposed to go to God with your troubles? (not flaming. I asked my FIL this question as well as mr les. Their response "Its a mystery!!")

 

[leswp1]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I can't speak for 5mn, particularly since I am not a Christian, but his past posts seem to place emphasis on the philosophy of Christianity rather than on the church or what might be called the religion of Christianity. And I have found most of his comments to pretty well reasoned and fair minded.

But he is a gopher fan, so he's obviously mentally defective to some extent.

I agree except I do not understand his aversion to Kep, who is also of a philosophical nature

 

[joecct]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Jesus also failed/questioned but was loved anyway


The history of how Mary became revered in the Catholic church absolutely fascinates me. Historically she was a non-entity or little recognized as important until the Byzantine times when suddenly she was very important. The lack of attention to females, who were important to Jesus, is something that has always puzzled me. I struggle with the emphasis on Mary, other Saints, etc. to intervene when Jesus said, "Ask the Father." Anyone able to give an explanation of why you would not go directly to the Father and use an intermediary? Aren't you supposed to go to God with your troubles? (not flaming. I asked my FIL this question as well as mr les. Their response "Its a mystery!!")

Did you ask Mom or Dad? We ask His Mother, and the Saints to intercede with God. Think of the Saints as high priced lawyers before the Judge. Sons will always listen to their Mothers.

And Mary's last words in the Bible (at the wedding feast at Cana) - "Do whatever He tells you." Potent words.

 

[burd]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I agree except I do not understand his aversion to Kep, who is also of a philosophical nature

Exceptionally so

 

[leswp1]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Did you ask Mom or Dad? We ask His Mother, and the Saints to intercede with God. Think of the Saints as high priced lawyers before the Judge. Sons will always listen to their Mothers.

And Mary's last words in the Bible (at the wedding feast at Cana) - "Do whatever He tells you." Potent words.

Not disagreeing that Mary is important but why is is necessary to ask for intercession? I don't understand why there would be a need for intercession. To not apply directly to God would seem to mean you do not trust him to listen or to make a wise decision without help. That seems disrespectful to me. If he is all seeing and all powerful then there should be no need to add layers of bureaucracy (probably not the right word but the meaning is close) to deal with something.

If there is such a focus on Saints to the point you are praying to them is that not losing focus on who should really be dealing with whatever it is you want help with?

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Not disagreeing that Mary is important but why is is necessary to ask for intercession? I don't understand why there would be a need for intercession. To not apply directly to God would seem to mean you do not trust him to listen or to make a wise decision without help. That seems disrespectful to me. If he is all seeing and all powerful then there should be no need to add layers of bureaucracy (probably not the right word but the meaning is close) to deal with something.

If there is such a focus on Saints to the point you are praying to them is that not losing focus on who should really be dealing with whatever it is you want help with?

To a certain extent, the Catholic Church absorbed prior religious traditions into itself and adjusted them. The saints are a way to merge pagan beliefs in multiple gods and goddesses that exemplify natural forces, by subsuming them into a hierarchy under the One True God.

Thus we have the patron saint of travelers, the patron saint of sailors, the patron saint of this, that and the other thing. In today's day and age you might think of them as Cabinet officials. Lose something? Ask St. Anthony for help. Worried about an illness in your throat? Go to Mass on the Feast of St. Blaise and get your throat blessed (if they still even do that kind of thing these days....)


It seems to me that the Catholic Church is more concerned with spiritual resonance than logical consistency. Life is not logical, reason is a human construct not necessarily found in nature. Some things make no logical sense yet are true anyway.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I don't think I have ever seen Kep say all of Christianity is evil or stupid. I have to admit I miss the deep seeded hatred in the posts you are reading. I see someone who is thoughtful and curious. I do not have a problem with Kep not believing as I do. Martin Luther taught us to question and think deeply about what Scripture says. I find the posts very stimulating. They make me not blindly believe but believe with thought. If Faith is deep, questioning should help make it deeper.

Thanks. I think religion is endlessly fascinating, and many people close to me, including my parents, are deeply devout.

For the record, I apply your rule of questioning to my own lack of belief. I appreciate when people with belief explain it to me, and make it a further context for my own personal choices. As I've said many times, to be shut out of the intuitive understanding of the groundwork of many of Western culture's greatest philosophical and literary works, particularly in my favorite period of history in which Scholasticism was the lingua franca of intelligent discourse, is deeply frustrating, and anything I can be taught to better crawl into those heads is a treasure.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Not disagreeing that Mary is important but why is is necessary to ask for intercession? I don't understand why there would be a need for intercession. To not apply directly to God would seem to mean you do not trust him to listen or to make a wise decision without help. That seems disrespectful to me. If he is all seeing and all powerful then there should be no need to add layers of bureaucracy (probably not the right word but the meaning is close) to deal with something.

For one thing, God's kinda busy.

But for another, intercession with Mary and the Saints was a quite natural way of co-opting the polytheistic / animistic faiths of the peoples who were targeted for conversion. It is far easier to explain to people that the good spirits they have been depending on for a thousand years are aspects or intermediaries of this new god then it is to force them to pile up all their treasured relics in the square and burn them. The latter is a terrible strategy and goes down to defeat like all conquerors who think they will be "welcomed as liberators."

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Christianity has had both profoundly negative and positive effects on the world. I must say I am very surprised you think Christianity should have credit for positive change in most of what you listed.

Change is not something religious organizations embrace easily. Not because God would want it that way but because humans are in charge and those in power are loath to give up that power.

Believe it or not, because of negative atheist contingency I've been down this road many time on this site. And every time I do, the poster I make the point to 'picks up their ball and goes home'...but here we go again. First, nobody said Christianity didn't have negativity. Every single societal concept does...every socio economic system, political system, ideology, etc. So holding just Christianity to that standard is setting an extremely high bar.

The point is that its positives have had far reaching monumental societal implications (and you'll note, I am very specific on my language). So first the negatives. If you believe that Jesus is the son of God (i.e., in the trinity actually God), then his Word is the whole deal. What is the Word? Its turn the other cheek, the meek shall inherit the earth and the golden rule. The message is repeated over and over and over. Frankly none of the negative outcomes you discussed or any others I have ever seen have anything to do with the Word. In fact, every single one of those examples you provide is diametrically opposed to the Word. These are exactly the activities Jesus is preaching against. Tell me if I'm wrong here. I suspect you, Cloud, Kep, etc won't.

The positives. From the hour that the Bible was printed (and it is the most widely distributed and read book in the history of the world), western society has been on a 500 year fast tract to mirror its broader concept. One has to keep in mind that this has occurred in the face of all the same human selfishness - greed, power, discrimination - that has always been there and is deep rooted in human nature. Much of this has been accomplished by Christian impact on the list of beneficiary institutions (health care, education, slavery, child labor, British/US democracy, charity, women's suffrage, civil rights) which I have picked very carefully. At various times over the last couple of years, I have presented reams of information showing that Christianity was a top change agent in each of these areas. I can't spend a couple of days to track all this stuff down to have skeptics go 'huh, yeah' and walk away (which happens pretty much every time). But one example off the top of my head is health care. The bad? Healthcare research was hindered by the Papacy. Where does Jesus infer this is that right move...to hinder human assistance? On the other hand, health care was started in monasteries and medieval villages used religious institutions for all their health care needs. When the modern hospital was created it was largely done so by Christians. Countless lives have been saved...as I recall in 1900 some 70%+ of practitioners came from Christian institutions. How many hospitals have a Saint in front of their names? The net message is that health care is decades ahead of where it would have been without these innovations. As a result without Christianity, we would be without the latest technologies and procedures, and we'd be missing countless generations of people. And much of this was as a result of human inspiration from Jesus Word. Charity is another. The vast, vast majority of major charities have a Christian foundation. And those that aren't Christian have been inspired by Christian examples.

Do the research.

I don't think I have ever seen Kep say all of Christianity is evil or stupid. I have to admit I miss the deep seeded hatred in the posts you are reading. I see someone who is thoughtful and curious. I do not have a problem with Kep not believing as I do. Martin Luther taught us to question and think deeply about what Scripture says. I find the posts very stimulating. They make me not blindly believe but believe with thought. If Faith is deep, questioning should help make it deeper.

If you spend much time here, you'll find I enjoy intellectual discussion on these topics more than most. And although I may disagree, there is nothing wrong with Keps positions. There are others with the same perspectives Lynah, UNO, etc. There everything wrong is with Keps delivery. He has consistently said outright that Christians are making everything up and are totally delusional. These are direct words used...and he uses them on every thread. In the past, this particular thread has been full of Christians. They don't come here...and Kep has been referenced.

The issue is this...for any religion, one's God/gods are extremely personal in nature. I can't speak for you but, the resulting relationship individuals of faith have is of utter importance. So when Kep slams Christians using concepts like 'Jeebus' (and there is zero evidence that he's talking about a subset), he is incredibly offensive. Imagine he was criticizing black or Hispanic culture this way...by using derogatory terms? He'd be kicked off the site. These aren't religions? What if he was using derogatory terms about and slamming Muslims more than weekly for their beliefs? What if he used derogatory terms about and slammed Jews frequently? He would be kicked off the site. Kep's ideas as unsavory as they sometimes are...are not bad. Fact is that he's deeply offensive to many of faith in his frequent 'Jeebus' delivery, and he's smart enough to realize this and doesn't care.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

If you spend much time here, you'll find I enjoy intellectual discussion on these topics more than most. And although I may disagree, there is nothing wrong with Keps positions. There are others with the same perspectives Lynah, UNO, etc. There everything wrong is with Keps delivery. He has consistently said outright that Christians are making everything up and are totally delusional. These are direct words used...and he uses them on every thread. In the past, this particular thread has been full of Christians. They don't come here...and Kep has been referenced.

The issue is this...for any religion, one's God/gods are extremely personal in nature. I can't speak for you but, the resulting relationship individuals of faith have is of utter importance. So when Kep slams Christians using concepts like 'Jeebus' (and there is zero evidence that he's talking about a subset), he is incredibly offensive. Imagine he was criticizing black or Hispanic culture this way...by using derogatory terms? He'd be kicked off the site. These aren't religions? What if he was using derogatory terms about and slamming Muslims more than weekly for their beliefs? What if he used derogatory terms about and slammed Jews frequently? He would be kicked off the site. Kep's ideas as unsavory as they sometimes are...are not bad. Fact is that he's deeply offensive to many of faith in his frequent 'Jeebus' delivery, and he's smart enough to realize this and doesn't care.

If you're going to write paragraphs about my sins, you ought to at least address them to me. I mean, I'm flattered, but...

I'm sure I have written things that offend you -- that much at least is clear from your reaction. Now, I'm sure you'll disagree since you appear to think you can divine my thoughts and motives better than I can. But for sincere, curious, wondering, above all kind belief I have nothing but respect.

That belief, which is the spark of actual conscience and divinity, has nothing to do with psychosis of pygmies who elevate themselves above all others and claim their ice cream flavor is the One True ice cream flavor. For them,

Scorn and defiance; slight regard, contempt,
And any thing that may not misbecome
The mighty sender, doth he prize you at.

Because those folks have ever been the fanatics and lunatics who have hurt both billions of men and mankind as a whole. They are the mob who skinned Hypatia with sea shells, praising their totem (which in reality is nothing but a deification of their own image in a mirror of smug self-satisfaction).

Men have invented thousands if not millions of religions, each with its prophets, doctrines, deities, and proofs. Summing across them all we have evidence of a questing human spirit. But announcing that one and only one, arbitrarily assigned to you by birth or some other happenstance, is objectively "truer" than all others -- nay, infallible and in every syllable not symbolically but literally true -- and that this must be so for everyone? Nope, that belongs on the same ash heap as forceful arguments for the superiority of one race, gender or nation. That is only the worship of the self and to that, this.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

The point is that its positives have had far reaching monumental societal implications (and you'll note, I am very specific on my language). So first the negatives. If you believe that Jesus is the son of God (i.e., in the trinity actually God), then his Word is the whole deal. What is the Word? Its turn the other cheek, the meek shall inherit the earth and the golden rule. The message is repeated over and over and over. Frankly none of the negative outcomes you discussed or any others I have ever seen have anything to do with the Word. In fact, every single one of those examples you provide is diametrically opposed to the Word. These are exactly the activities Jesus is preaching against. Tell me if I'm wrong here. I suspect you, Cloud, Kep, etc won't.

Shall we go down the path of how the abolition of slavery was rooted in Christian teachings again? If the Bible is God's Word divinely inspired to use the hand of the accredited authors of each passage, then let's take a look at His thoughts on the matter.

Exodus 20:2-3 (NRSV)
I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.

Okay, slavery is bad. We're on track now!

Exodus 20:17 (NRSV)
You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

Leviticus 25:44-46 (NRSV)
As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness.

Whoa, wait a second, He just said slavery is bad, what's this noise about not coveting your neighbor's slaves? Ah, there it is, you can take slaves so long as they're non-Jewish slaves. Huh. Well, maybe that changes later on in the readings.

Exodus 21:1-7 (NRSV)
These are the ordinances that you shall set before them: When you buy a male Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, but in the seventh he shall go out a free person, without debt. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s and he shall go out alone. But if the slave declares, “I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out a free person,” then his master shall bring him before God. He shall be brought to the door or the doorpost; and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him for life.

Exodus 21:20-21 (NRSV)
When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property.

Okay, wow, the Old Testament really isn't so much anti-slavery as simply delivering the Jews from slavery at the hands of the Egyptians. Perhaps the New Testament will really give the abolitionists the illumination through divine scripture to understand that slavery for all of humanity truly is against His wishes.

Ephesians 6:5-9 (NRSV)
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. Render service with enthusiasm, as to the Lord and not to men and women, knowing that whatever good we do, we will receive the same again from the Lord, whether we are slaves or free. And, masters, do the same to them. Stop threatening them, for you know that both of you have the same Master in heaven, and with him there is no partiality.

Colossians 3:22-25 (NRSV)
Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything, not only while being watched and in order to please them, but wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord. Whatever your task, put yourselves into it, as done for the Lord and not for your masters, since you know that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you serve the Lord Christ. For the wrongdoer will be paid back for whatever wrong has been done, and there is no partiality.

1 Timothy 6:1-5 (NRSV)
Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

Titus 2:9-10,15 (NRSV)
Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior. … Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one look down on you.

1 Peter 2:15-20 (NRSV)
For it is God’s will that by doing right you should silence the ignorance of the foolish. As servants of God, live as free people, yet do not use your freedom as a pretext for evil. Honor everyone. Love the family of believers. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God’s approval.

1 Peter 2:21-25 (NRSV)
For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you should follow in his steps. “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.” When he was abused, he did not return abuse; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he entrusted himself to the one who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that, free from sins, we might live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. For you were going astray like sheep, but now you have returned to the shepherd and guardian of your souls.

No, I'm still seeing a lot about slavery being okay, even giving instructions on how Christian masters and Christian slaves should behave towards one another. And there's even a bit in there about slaves enduring harsh treatment with, I don't know, dignity, so that in their immortal lives they'll be rewarded by God with passage into Heaven.

Clearly, I see the rooting of the abolition of slavery in the Bible. Except I don't. I see a lot of pro-slavery instructions in that book. Please, tell me again how the Bible instructs God's followers to end this horrendous practice when it clearly gives a good many bits of instructions on how to be good slavers and slaves.