The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Pope Paul VI tossed (supressed) the Leonine Prayers after Mass in 1965. The Church has not recovered.

My Catholic catechism and practice all post-dates that, so much so that I had never even heard of the Leonine Prayers. Interesting.

IMHO, it all went to hell after they banned Latin.

In Nomine Patris, et Filii et Spiritus Sancti. That's the real sh-t, right there.

 

[joecct]

My Catholic catechism and practice all post-dates that, so much so that I had never even heard of the Leonine Prayers. Interesting.

IMHO, it all went to hell after they banned Latin.

In Nomine Patris, et Filii et Spiritus Sancti. That's the real sh-t, right there.

Latin was never banned. Neither was Gregorian Chant. If you read the documents of V2, particularly the Constitution on the Liturgy, nowhere does it state
1. Vernacular
2. Modern hymns
3. Priest facing the people
4. Communion in the hand
5. Rip out the altar rails

The implementers of the Council wanted to protestantize Catholicism. They did and drove the people out in droves.

If they had left the Mass as it was in 1967, we would be OK.

 

[unofan]

Latin was never banned. Neither was Gregorian Chant. If you read the documents of V2, particularly the Constitution on the Liturgy, nowhere does it state
1. Vernacular
2. Modern hymns
3. Priest facing the people
4. Communion in the hand
5. Rip out the altar rails

The implementers of the Council wanted to protestantize Catholicism. They did and drove the people out in droves.

If they had left the Mass as it was in 1967, we would be OK.

I can only speak for myself, but I think there's plenty of other things that drove people away from the church. The Buddy Jesus movement is a minor, minor part.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I can only speak for myself, but I think there's plenty of other things that drove people away from the church. The Buddy Jesus movement is a minor, minor part.

I wonder whether the same things that drove away white Catholics contributed to the explosion of brown and black Catholics? Holding the line on birth control, homos, and female second class citizenship was boffo in the Veldt, but here... not so much.

 

[joecct]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I wonder whether the same things that drove away white Catholics contributed to the explosion of brown and black Catholics? Holding the line on birth control, homos, and female second class citizenship was boffo in the Veldt, but here... not so much.

Females have never had second class membership.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Females have never had second class membership.

Tell that to the nuns when comparing their rights within the Church to those of the priests and monks.

 

[LynahFan]

Females have never had second class membership.

You're right - what they've had can't even really be classified as a membership of any kind.

(whitewash in 3... 2... )

 

[joecct]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

You're right - what they've had can't even really be classified as a membership of any kind.

(whitewash in 3... 2... )

Believe what you want. You and I will disagree until we face judgment before the Supreme Master. When that happens, we will know Truth, not beliefs.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Females have never had second class membership.

And Plessy mandated separate but equal.

Come on, joe. Catholicism has been virulently misogynistic ever since Augustine got his warped hooks into it. There have been many fine and worthy elements to the story of Catholicism. It's fear, loathing and all around creepiness concerning both women and sexuality are not among them.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Believe what you want. You and I will disagree until we face judgment before the Supreme Master. When that happens, we will know Truth, not beliefs.

Ching Hai?

 

[joecct]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Ching Hai?

The Toe of Joe

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

The Catholic Church provides its followers with a nice paradox on Ash Wednesday. The Gospel verses are always the same:

Jesus said, "Beware of practicing your piety before others in order to be seen by them; for then you have no reward from your Father in heaven.
....
"And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
"....when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, so that your fasting may be seen not by others but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

[emphases added retroactively in response to # 833 and # 834]

Either you do good works for their own sake, or you do good works as a means to achieve acclaim and renown.

Then, a few minutes later, they put a big black “X” on your forehead and send you out into the world with the “X” on display for all to see.*


* Okay, I know it is a rotated "X", i.e. a cross....

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

The Catholic Church provides its followers with a nice paradox on Ash Wednesday. The Gospel verses are always the same:

Either you do good works for their own sake, or you do good works as a means to achieve acclaim and renown.

Then, a few minutes later, they put a big black “X” on your forehead and send you out into the world with the “X” on display for all to see.*


* Okay, I know it is a rotated "X", i.e. a cross....

Product Placement

A couple of thoughts. An outside viewer may see something like this and think there's an outside motive...that being from the viewers perspective. But motivation/purpose in this case comes from the Christian in question. So first, I don't know that the purpose of the 'ritual' itself is to show off. It closely mirrors the other communion approach of the delivery of wine and bread. And there's nothing lasting about that. The church could easily have moved the Ash Wednesday approach to a weekly approach if the goal was strictly awareness. Second, even if there many that see the results...I don't see Ash Wednesday as specifically hypocritical as the Bible is about spreading the good news.

 

[joecct]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

The admonishment when the priest put the ashes on your forehead was "Remember man that you are dust and unto dust you shall return."

Reminds us of our mortality and to be in God's good graces when we die.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

The admonishment when the priest put the ashes on your forehead was "Remember man that you are dust and unto dust you shall return."

Reminds us of our mortality and to be in God's good graces when we die.

Yep. This is one of those cases where the ritual means exactly what it says it means. The mark isn't for others, it's for you to remember.

Why, what is pomp, rule, reign, but earth and dust?
And, live we how we can, yet die we must.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

The admonishment when the priest put the ashes on your forehead was "Remember man that you are dust and unto dust you shall return."

Reminds us of our mortality and to be in God's good graces when we die.

I understand that part of it full well.

After having been thus reminded, when you* were still at work, did you* then walk around that way all day long? Come home that way at night? Wake up that way the next morning? After a certain amount of time passed, no doubt you* eventually washed it off. Did you* forget about the reminder once your* forehead was clean again?


I used the word "paradox" to address the latter consideration, not the original purpose of the ashes, which I also know are left over from burning the leftover prior year Palm Sunday celebratory fronds.


* (not you personally, joecct, I mean it generically)

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I don't see Ash Wednesday as specifically hypocritical as the Bible is about spreading the good news.

I never used the term "hypocritical": I [meant to] say that it presented the believer with a paradox: the anointing with ashes is a humbling event, to remind us of our fallibility and mortality. At the same time, in the context of the Gospel message that immediately preceded it, we are challenged to reflect on how we then carry ourselves after the reminder.

For example, just about every Church has an option in which you can go in, be anointed, and leave again, without attending the service. People line up in droves for that once a year who might rarely if ever attend a weekly service.

I actually overheard a priest once complain out loud about "CAPE" Catholics, those who only show up for service four times a year.



Christmas, Ash Wednesday, Palm Sunday, Easter

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I retroactively edited the quote in # 832 to illustrate exactly what I found "paradoxical" about the situation....

 

[joecct]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I understand that part of it full well.

After having been thus reminded, when you* were still at work, did you* then walk around that way all day long? Come home that way at night? Wake up that way the next morning? After a certain amount of time passed, no doubt you* eventually washed it off. Did you* forget about the reminder once your* forehead was clean again?


I used the word "paradox" to address the latter consideration, not the original purpose of the ashes, which I also know are left over from burning the leftover prior year Palm Sunday celebratory fronds.


* (not you personally, joecct, I mean it generically)

Back when the sermons were about sin and salvation and how to avoid (a) to achieve (b), you tried to stay in a state of grace. However, being human, you fail, sometimes spectacularly. However, since Christ forgave Peter who denied him 3 times, we know that any transgression can be forgiven, provided we are sorry and vow to do better.

We don't know when death will call us so the idea is to keep on God's good side all the time.

So, I guess the answer to your question is "Yes". The mark of ashes should leave an indelible reminder upon our consciousnesses.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I guess the answer to your question is "Yes". The mark of ashes should leave an indelible reminder upon our consciousnesses.

then you* don't really need to walk around displaying them at 4 PM if they were placed there at 8 AM, eh?




* again, generic pronoun not joecct even if he did graduate from Clarkson...