The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

The other cat, Paprika, could care less. She's too busy cowering in fear in some dark corner of the house.

Is she scared of the tree?

One of our old cats used to love the tree until it was decorated -- then he was terrified by it.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Does holding tenure at Wheaton not mean the same thing as it does at other universities?

Tenure at private universities is different than at public universities.

tl; dr:

State university: tenure is statutory and termination is a matter of confiscation of property without due process. Very hard.

Private university: tenure is contractual and termination is no harder than proving the teacher is in breach of contract. A Christian University's charter is likely something like, "the administration can't terminate a tenured professor unless he violates the Statement of Faith... which is interpreted solely by the administration." Very easy.

The distinction makes sense, since tenure is typically thought of (well, by me anyway) as chiefly a protection against state persecution of unpopular opinion. If you're teaching at a private school, particularly a sectarian one, you bought the ticket, you take the ride.

I'm sure our attorneys will correct and/or expand.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Does holding tenure at Wheaton not mean the same thing as it does at other universities?

More like how does someone get a job teaching at Wheaton and not know that the Christian God is entirely different than the Muslim God? Shows the level of ignorance that is prevalent that some people actually think they are the same God. The differences are enormous and fundamental. One example. Islam doesn't recognize Jesus as God, while the Bible say no man comes to the Father except by Jesus. Agree with Christianity or not, either way the Bible's claims of exclusivity take a massive amount of gymnastics to try to get around.

Oh, and Merry Christmas everyone. Not spending much time around here anymore, but pop by once in awhile to see what the crazies are up to.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

More like how does someone get a job teaching at Wheaton and not know that the Christian God is entirely different than the Muslim God?

Huh? It's the same guy with the beard and impressive hand gestures. Jew, Christian, Muslim: just good ol' Jhvh in different guises.

Pope Francis says so. I'm gonna go with him over you.

Merry Christmas to you, too! You and I can both thank the pagans for getting the Solstice fairly close.

 

[unofan]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

More like how does someone get a job teaching at Wheaton and not know that the Christian God is entirely different than the Muslim God?

Because it is the same God (the God of Abraham)? Different methods of worship, but same deity.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Huh? It's the same guy with the beard and impressive hand gestures. Jew, Christian, Muslim: just good ol' Jhvh in different guises.

Pope Francis says so. I'm gonna go with him over you.

Merry Christmas to you, too! You and I can both thank the pagans for getting the Solstice fairly close.

I'm not Catholic and don't agree with a number of things Catholics believe, so I'll leave it to others to defend Pope Francis if he's made such statements.

But in the Protestant world until recently people would have been laughed out of the room if they said Allah is the same as the Christian God and in most circles such a statement would still be considered quite bizarre. Really, anyone who has studied it much will understand the stark differences. I understand that people like to muddy the waters for their own purposes, but people who say they are the same are outside Christian orthodoxy and in the case of Wheaton, a protestant Christian college, it's bizarre that a person would become a professor there with such an unorthodox belief. Of course given that Mohammed grew up around Christians, it's not surprising that when Islam came forth that it would in some ways mimic parts of Christianity, though the gaping chasms (such as whether Jesus is God or not, not a minor area of difference) are obvious to those who pay attention. Awhile back I took a class on Islam and it was quite interesting, with visits to local Muslim institutions, discussions, etc.

Wheaton nails it on the head with statements such as ""While Islam and Christianity are both monotheistic, we believe there are fundamental differences between the two faiths, including what they teach about God's revelation to humanity, the nature of God, the path to salvation, and the life of prayer."

My guess is maybe it's such an unusual belief until quite recently that probably Wheaton didn't ask about that particular subject in interviewing prospective faculty (though obviously now such screening would seem necessary). But if this lady had such beliefs, why did she go to Wheaton to begin with when what she says is in start contrast to the beliefs espoused by the private college? She's better off teaching at a public university where her unorthodox beliefs would be lauded.

People wanting to argue about such a basic thing reminds me why I don't spend much time around here anymore. Again, all my best to you Kepler and Mrs. Kepler in this holiday season. Maybe one of these days you'll get to enjoy one of our desert southwest Christmas seasons. It's a little different to see a cactus with a Santa hat on and lights and such, but it grows on you.

 

[unofan]

I'm not Catholic and don't agree with a number of things Catholics believe, so I'll leave it to others to defend Pope Francis if he's made such statements.

But in the Protestant world until recently people would have been laughed out of the room if they said Allah is the same as the Christian God and in most circles such a statement would still be considered quite bizarre. Really, anyone who has studied it much will understand the stark differences. I understand that people like to muddy the waters for their own purposes, but people who say they are the same are outside Christian orthodoxy and in the case of Wheaton, a protestant Christian college, it's bizarre that a person would become a professor there with such an unorthodox belief. Of course given that Mohammed grew up around Christians, it's not surprising that when Islam came forth that it would in some ways mimic parts of Christianity, though the gaping chasms (such as whether Jesus is God or not, not a minor area of difference) are obvious to those who pay attention. Awhile back I took a class on Islam and it was quite interesting, with visits to local Muslim institutions, discussions, etc.

Wheaton nails it on the head with statements such as ""While Islam and Christianity are both monotheistic, we believe there are fundamental differences between the two faiths, including what they teach about God's revelation to humanity, the nature of God, the path to salvation, and the life of prayer."

My guess is maybe it's such an unusual belief until quite recently that probably Wheaton didn't ask about that particular subject in interviewing prospective faculty (though obviously now such screening would seem necessary). But if this lady had such beliefs, why did she go to Wheaton to begin with when what she says is in start contrast to the beliefs espoused by the private college? She's better off teaching at a public university where her unorthodox beliefs would be lauded.

People wanting to argue about such a basic thing reminds me why I don't spend much time around here anymore. Again, all my best to you Kepler and Mrs. Kepler in this holiday season. Maybe one of these days you'll get to enjoy one of our desert southwest Christmas seasons. It's a little different to see a cactus with a Santa hat on and lights and such, but it grows on you.

Tl;dr: My truthiness trumps theological fact.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Another reason to not come around much. Unofan's continued obsession with whatever I say on this board. Creepy.

I'm sure as usual he's espousing some bizarre alternate reality viewpoint or something.

 

[geezer]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Obviously Jesus and Mohammed aren't the same dude or have anything like the same philosophy (love, peace and forgiveness vs. kill all the people to death and rape their children). But sociologically speaking, both religions can trace their human ancestry back to Judaism ("God of Abraham") before the time of Christ. So it's two different arguments being made.

 

[leswp1]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Another reason to not come around much. Unofan's continued obsession with whatever I say on this board. Creepy.

I'm sure as usual he's espousing some bizarre alternate reality viewpoint or something.

Sorry. I am a Protestant. Even my Pastor says that the religions started from the same origins. Jesus started the first splinter sect. Mohamed came along later and started his own.

Many of the tenets of the religions are the same (Many are the same basic ones for most religions). Both the Bible and the Quran have things in them that the religions chose to bypass. Stoning people and burnt offerings are 2 that come to my mind for the Bible. Of course there are people who are real Christian Fundamentalists who cherry pick some of the Old Testament rules to be sure. There are some sects of Islam that do what Christian Fundamentalists do and adhere to stricter interpretations.

In general I would say the basic idea is the same for both religions- care for your fellow man, respect and revere God/Allah and His Prophet (Jesus/Mohamed). Over the years both religions have had nut bags in powerful positions who have lost their way and espoused some very radical interpretations viewed in today's light- The Crusades, the Puritans, the Calvinists, and various other initiatives perpetrated to preserve the true religion. THere have been some pretty interesting missteps in the name of God in today's view.

 

[unofan]

Obviously Jesus and Mohammed aren't the same dude or have anything like the same philosophy (love, peace and forgiveness vs. kill all the people to death and rape their children). But sociologically speaking, both religions can trace their human ancestry back to Judaism ("God of Abraham") before the time of Christ. So it's two different arguments being made.

Exactly. Allah=Jehovah=Yaweh, they're all names for the God of Abraham.

The religions are different, the deity is the same.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Sorry. I am a Protestant. Even my Pastor says that the religions started from the same origins. Jesus started the first splinter sect. Mohamed came along later and started his own.

Many of the tenets of the religions are the same (Many are the same basic ones for most religions). Both the Bible and the Quran have things in them that the religions chose to bypass. Stoning people and burnt offerings are 2 that come to my mind for the Bible. Of course there are people who are real Christian Fundamentalists who cherry pick some of the Old Testament rules to be sure. There are some sects of Islam that do what Christian Fundamentalists do and adhere to stricter interpretations.

In general I would say the basic idea is the same for both religions- care for your fellow man, respect and revere God/Allah and His Prophet (Jesus/Mohamed). Over the years both religions have had nut bags in powerful positions who have lost their way and espoused some very radical interpretations viewed in today's light- The Crusades, the Puritans, the Calvinists, and various other initiatives perpetrated to preserve the true religion. THere have been some pretty interesting missteps in the name of God in today's view.

Not sure what you're sorry about.

No question about the history of how Judaism, Christianity and Islam came about and that both espouse charity, etc. in places. I don't think anyone disagrees with any of that. But that's not what Wheaton is taking issue with. Just like a lot of the media is drumming on the hijab thing, when Wheaton has been clear they aren't taking issue with that.

So, what do you do with the Bible's clear claims of exclusivity? Or is that part of what gets tossed aside? It's not like some of the texts are fuzzy, like when Jesus says no man comes to the Father except by me. Not a lot of wiggle room there unless you just toss it aside. And that's not some old testament text, but Jesus talking.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

You know, I got to hand it to Bob.

If I as a Christian would have been asked yesterday...I'd of said 'of course they're the same God'...almost by definition. After reflecting on it, I might say 'not really the same God'...almost by definition.

I don't know that I would quite make the point the way Bob did. I think it comes down to a point I made about a month ago. For Christians, God should be the Word and what Jesus stood for. Jesus changed the definition of God...and even Paul (of whom I'm a bit wary) said that Jesus changed everything by converting God from laws of the Old Testament.

Now of course, not all Christians put the top priority on Jesus' Word (that's why I consider them suspect). But in theory, Jesus is God...what he says goes. So in the end, I think for Islam and Judaism is about the same...and for some Christians, they are largely similar. But for those who put Jesus' Word as God...we're probably talking about a different God.

 

[unofan]

You know, I got to hand it to Bob.

If I as a Christian would have been asked yesterday...I'd of said 'of course they're the same God'...almost by definition. After reflecting on it, I might say 'not really the same God'...almost by definition.

I don't know that I would quite make the point the way Bob did. I think it comes down to a point I made about a month ago. For Christians, God should be the Word and what Jesus stood for. Jesus changed the definition of God...and even Paul (of whom I'm a bit wary) said that Jesus changed everything by converting God from laws of the Old Testament.

Now of course, not all Christians put the top priority on Jesus' Word (that's why I consider them suspect). But in theory, Jesus is God...what he says goes. So in the end, I think for Islam and Judaism is about the same...and for some Christians, they are largely similar. But for those who put Jesus' Word as God...we're probably talking about a different God.

Except Jesus himself said he is one and the same as the Old Testament God. As is the Holy Spirit, hence the Holy Trinity and all that. So you're still worshipping the same deity, you just don't agree on all of his forms, procedures, or rules.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

People wanting to argue about such a basic thing reminds me why I don't spend much time around here anymore.

I don't really understand what you mean by this. You went into a religious thread and you are repelled by... argument? I think there are far less drastic ways of avoiding religious discussion than completely boycotting the board. Like not engaging in a particular line of argument. Or maybe not opening threads you don't want to bother with?

But for argument's sake (sorry, and I understand you may not respond), what appears to you crystal clear is really the crux of an important argument among the three peoples of the book. I understand there are evangelicals who, to mirror your charmingly loaded phrase, "for their own purposes," want to insist that it's somehow obvious to all that the gods are different, but it sure looks like the entire rest of the planet agrees they are the same. So you are not arguing a fact but an article of faith. Beyond that, yes I agree it's silly to argue about articles of faith, but it's not silly to argue whether or not a belief is one.

Again, all my best to you Kepler and Mrs. Kepler in this holiday season. Maybe one of these days you'll get to enjoy one of our desert southwest Christmas seasons. It's a little different to see a cactus with a Santa hat on and lights and such, but it grows on you.

Do you think she studied for eight years to just be called "the idiot who married that bum"? It's "the Doctor idiot who married that bum."

I'll be seeing plenty of brown Christmases in retirement, I have no desire to see any more than necessary. In Central America we saw plenty of tropical Christmas decor. It was... jarring, but I could probably get used to 82 degrees, margaritas and a swim after Midnight Mass.

Merry Christmas to Mrs. Bob and all the little Bobs, too.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

kill all the people to death and rape their children ... Mohammed

I think you want David. Just down the hall and to the right.

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant;

And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel;

Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

-- Deuteronomy 17

Whoopsie!

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Except Jesus himself said he is one and the same as the Old Testament God. As is the Holy Spirit, hence the Holy Trinity and all that. So you're still worshipping the same deity, you just don't agree on all of his forms, procedures, or rules.

I fully get how one could see God as the same for all these religions. As I myself have for my whole life. But to your point...

Jesus does say he's the same as God and as the OT God...and he is. But what He infers and really outright says is...that our understanding of the OT God/Holy Spirit is incorrect. And as God, Jesus should know. So in the end, if you believe God is like a lampshade - He/She exists - and His/Her meaning is 'meaningless'...then God is the same for all. If you believe the purpose of God is what's important (as I do) than God as the Word is very different in Christianity.

Cudos to Bob for pulling this together.

 

[Foxton]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I fully get how one could see God as the same for all these religions. As I myself have for my whole life. But to your point...

Jesus does say he's the same as God and as the OT God...and he is. But what He infers and really outright says is...that our understanding of the OT God/Holy Spirit is incorrect. And as God, Jesus should know. So in the end, if you believe God is like a lampshade - He/She exists - and His/Her meaning is 'meaningless'...then God is the same for all. If you believe the purpose of God is what's important (as I do) than God as the Word is very different in Christianity.

Cudos to Bob for pulling this together.

Well you say that.... because yours is a religion of whatever is convenient but...

17"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.…

 

[leswp1]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I fully get how one could see God as the same for all these religions. As I myself have for my whole life. But to your point...

Jesus does say he's the same as God and as the OT God...and he is. But what He infers and really outright says is...that our understanding of the OT God/Holy Spirit is incorrect. And as God, Jesus should know. So in the end, if you believe God is like a lampshade - He/She exists - and His/Her meaning is 'meaningless'...then God is the same for all. If you believe the purpose of God is what's important (as I do) than God as the Word is very different in Christianity.

Cudos to Bob for pulling this together.

Not the lampshade type and I don't see things as literally as you do. Took a very interesting Bible class from our Pastor who took great pains to be clear the Jews/Hebrews who were writing at the time the texts were put down were not detail oriented (hence the different versions of the story in Genesis) but they were set on getting the message across. They told the story in a way that was going to get the point across to the Jews at the time. This was the tradition, the correct way to communicate their knowledge of God. Early Christians were JEWS who believed the Messiah had come. One of our interns was a Jewish convert and his interpretation (based on his understanding of Judiasm) of Biblical instruction would be very different from what it sounds you believe.

I believe God is the Word but I also believe that looking at the Word from the 21st century and trying to interpret it without understanding the context gives opportunity for argument regarding the meaning. There were many Gospels, scriptures the Church decided to exclude in the early centuries. Those were human decisions. IN that context I am more open to praying about what I read and not feeling absolutely sure I understand everything clearly. That is the beauty of the Bible. Every time I read it it speaks t me in a different way.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Faiths are lampshades; gods are lightbulbs.

There are a zillion lamshades out there, each of which distorts light differently. These are the various rules and regulations: no pork, no blow jobs, no pre-marital blow jobs. You can throw lampshades called "Christianity," "Islam," or "Judaism" on the same lightbulb and get very different effects.

There are also a zillion lightbulbs out there, each of which emits light differently. Zeus was a somewhat different lightbulb but seems to at least have come from the same factory as the Biblical God (i.e., deus). And then there are those funky aboriginal and eastern lightbulbs with wild shapes and colors. Groovy.


The first order error is to mistake the lampshade for the light. This is the literalist error.

Now, not only do lightbulbs only emit certain kinds of light, but other things besides lightbulbs emit light.

Therefore, the second order error is to mistake the lightbulb for the light. This is the theist error.

The essential thing is the light itself. At the end of the day, humans don't require a specific lightbulb any more than a specific lampshade. What we need to keep from fumbling around in the dark is light.

There are more and less effective lampshades (and for that matter lightbulbs) according to the room you're trying to light up. We don't all live in the same room.