The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

[joecct]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Bob may disagree...but my opinion is that its the 40/50+ is where there's confusion. Unlike today's younger generations, the older generations grew up in fire and brimstone and getting scolded by nuns. And as a result, older Christians are still hung up on church dogma...and older non Christians have archaic views of what the drivers are for most Christians.

Today, unconventional churches have boomed (like 'the River' that will worship any place but a church). The key to these unconventional churches is that they are non denominational. And that translates in going back to the source again to make sure they've got it right. And they are mirroring Jesus rather than the church. It just mean The net result is that Christianity under 40 today is increasingly compassionate, progressive and holds more common ground with Bernie Sanders than does middle America.

And yes, if you were born in the 50's and early 60's you were weaned on belief in authority. Dad went to work and was the head of the household. Mom stayed home, managed the accounts, did the shopping, and took care of the kids while Dad was at work. The cops and the teachers were always right. The DPW guys were cool. Firefighters drove nice trucks. Talking back was not acceptable.

But dogma being wrong? Not necessarily. Truth is never wrong. 1+1=2 all the time. What we fail at as fallible human beings, is the understanding of the truth. Parts are revealed to us at different times and we make changes as necessary. But there are also false truths that sound plausible, but lead their followers astray. Those need to be brought back to the truth.

BTW, winners determine the history.

 

[burd]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Bob may disagree...but my opinion is that its the 40/50+ is where there's confusion. Unlike today's younger generations, the older generations grew up in fire and brimstone and getting scolded by nuns. And as a result, older Christians are still hung up on church dogma...and older non Christians have archaic views of what the drivers are for most Christians.

Today, unconventional churches have boomed (like 'the River' that will worship any place but a church). The key to these unconventional churches is that they are non denominational. And that translates in going back to the source again to make sure they've got it right. And they are mirroring Jesus rather than the church. It just mean The net result is that Christianity under 40 today is increasingly compassionate, progressive and holds more common ground with Bernie Sanders than does middle America.

I have often that what you described as your faith sounded more like a philosophy than a religion, 5mn, though I would not pretend to speak for you.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

And yes, if you were born in the 50's and early 60's you were weaned on belief in authority. Dad went to work and was the head of the household. Mom stayed home, managed the accounts, did the shopping, and took care of the kids while Dad was at work. The cops and the teachers were always right. The DPW guys were cool. Firefighters drove nice trucks. Talking back was not acceptable.

I think this is bunk.

This was never true for most thinking people. Regardless of what authorities are telling you when, at about 13, you realize most adults are high functioning idiots everybody with a little bit on the ball tosses all that messaging into the "advertising" bin.

And while it may reflect the bovine portion of society, even then I doubt it was ever more than an artificially-created image expanded by television into a false collective memory. Most people have a healthy cynicism when it comes to what authority tells them and always have. The idea that there was a sudden reaction against authority is a Boomer myth like the sexual revolution. In reality, what changed was what you could get out into the media. All of these supposed trends in cynicism and sexuality are really only the images people are shown gradually approaching the reality that has always been there.

 

[joecct]

I think this is bunk.

This was never true for most thinking people. Regardless of what authorities are telling you when, at about 13, you realize most adults are high functioning idiots everybody with a little bit on the ball tosses all that messaging into the "advertising" bin.

And while it may reflect the bovine portion of society, even then I doubt it was ever more than an artificially-created image expanded by television into a false collective memory. Most people have a healthy cynicism when it comes to what authority tells them and always have. The idea that there was a sudden reaction against authority is a Boomer myth like the sexual revolution. In reality, what changed was what you could get out into the media. All of these supposed trends in cynicism and sexuality are really only the images people are shown gradually approaching the reality that has always been there.

We disagree then.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

We disagree then.

Joe, you're correct on this one, with the obvious caveat that not everyone fit into that mold in that era, as with any era (I'm learning that even the most obvious caveat must be stated or someone will freak out).

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

But dogma being wrong? Not necessarily. Truth is never wrong. 1+1=2 all the time. What we fail at as fallible human beings, is the understanding of the truth. Parts are revealed to us at different times and we make changes as necessary. But there are also false truths that sound plausible, but lead their followers astray. Those need to be brought back to the truth.

BTW, winners determine the history.

I have often that what you described as your faith sounded more like a philosophy than a religion, 5mn, though I would not pretend to speak for you.

Thank you, yes. As always I'm on the edge of getting in hot water with other Christians. But just as with political parties, I think its a bit dangerous to base your faith on 'religion'. Just like anything...if you allow someone to interpret a source for you, you get what you deserve. And in the past, churches have had too much sway in the definition of religion.

I believe as a Christian (or anyone with a 'philosophy') you must prioritize. And broadly speaking for Christians, Jesus is God. So Jesus a) was God b) came late and so could set the record straight c) and was very well documented. What were his priorities? 1) believe in the stuff (God is Jesus is Love) 2) the golden rule 3) peace, compassion, etc. The passage 'the Word was made flesh' is key. And that's it.

So focusing on passage xxx of book x of the Bible may be very insightful, but it may go independent of or against what matters. And in the end, if you go against what matters...you aren't really doing the Christian thing. Many, many Christians are already on this...but are focused on lifting up the downtrodden parts of our communities rather than the media headlines.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

We disagree then.

Well, uh, yeah.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Joe, you're correct on this one, with the obvious caveat that not everyone fit into that mold in that era, as with any era (I'm learning that even the most obvious caveat must be stated or someone will freak out).

Me too. Whenever I speak in statistical generalities somebody invariably says, "my aunt wasn't so your whole thesis is wrong!"

 

[burd]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Thank you, yes. As always I'm on the edge of getting in hot water with other Christians. But just as with political parties, I think its a bit dangerous to base your faith on 'religion'. Just like anything...if you allow someone to interpret a source for you, you get what you deserve. And in the past, churches have had too much sway in the definition of religion.

I believe as a Christian (or anyone with a 'philosophy') you must prioritize. And broadly speaking for Christians, Jesus is God. So Jesus a) was God b) came late and so could set the record straight c) and was very well documented. What were his priorities? 1) believe in the stuff (God is Jesus is Love) 2) the golden rule 3) peace, compassion, etc. The passage 'the Word was made flesh' is key. And that's it.

So focusing on passage xxx of book x of the Bible may be very insightful, but it may go independent of or against what matters. And in the end, if you go against what matters...you aren't really doing the Christian thing. Many, many Christians are already on this...but are focused on lifting up the downtrodden parts of our communities rather than the media headlines.

What I don't understand is how you reconcile the Christian philosophy of mercy and forgiveness (good) with your support of gopher hockey (very very bad). I guess you really do believe in the forgiveness of sins.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Today, unconventional churches have boomed (like 'the River' that will worship any place but a church). The key to these unconventional churches is that they are non denominational. And that translates in going back to the source again to make sure they've got it right. And they are mirroring Jesus rather than the church. It just mean The net result is that Christianity under 40 today is increasingly compassionate, progressive and holds more common ground with Bernie Sanders than does middle America.

This may be accurate, it depends on which megachurch you check out. Unfortunately, the two I tried eventually did make it pretty clear that while their "services" may be more like rock concerts, their beliefs are, by and large, still pretty socially conservative. And the way in which you are pressed to attend the breakout groups can come off as downright creepy.

most adults are high functioning idiots

That's a hefty way of putting it, but I can't disagree with it.

 

[geezer]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Both these guys are right, in my opinion: "You were weaned on belief in authority", and "at about 13, you realize most adults are high functioning idiots" are by no means mutually exclusive. Now the possible difference today is that there is less of an attempt to instill those same values of respect and hard work etc. (what used to be called "parenting") in young kids.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

But dogma being wrong? Not necessarily. Truth is never wrong. 1+1=2 all the time. What we fail at as fallible human beings, is the understanding of the truth. Parts are revealed to us at different times and we make changes as necessary. But there are also false truths that sound plausible, but lead their followers astray. Those need to be brought back to the truth.

Thought further about this. Not sure what you identify as 'truth'.

The way I as a Christian discover what religious truth is via my previously stated prioritization. There's a lot of stuff in the Bible...prioritize on what Jesus said...and the 'truth' for a Christian by definition can't be any more difficult than that. If it is more complicated or obscure, then its likely you're losing focus of the Word and leaving the path.

This may be accurate, it depends on which megachurch you check out. Unfortunately, the two I tried eventually did make it pretty clear that while their "services" may be more like rock concerts, their beliefs are, by and large, still pretty socially conservative. And the way in which you are pressed to attend the breakout groups can come off as downright creepy.

Then you went to the wrong place. I can't speak to those churches obviously...but if their big picture was not focused on the golden rule and other teachings, then they're leaving the Christian path. I've been to a number of non denominational large churches in Mpls and they're focused on compassion and support for the underprivileged. One might say 'oh, but these may be run by wierdos'. But because they all have the same message of compassion and peace...i.e., what Jesus said...they're more legit than those that don't.

In the end, Christianity has a couple important tenants...but its a also rich, rich toolbox which if understood and used properly will give one a ton of non-spiritual benefits. The churches you cite have a toolbox designed for others, and in addition to be in danger of leaving the Path, it also sounds like they don't offer the toolbox that's right for you.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Bob may disagree...but my opinion is that its the 40/50+ is where there's confusion. Unlike today's younger generations, the older generations grew up in fire and brimstone and getting scolded by nuns. And as a result, older Christians are still hung up on church dogma...and older non Christians have archaic views of what the drivers are for most Christians.

Today, unconventional churches have boomed (like 'the River' that will worship any place but a church). The key to these unconventional churches is that they are non denominational. And that translates in going back to the source again to make sure they've got it right. And they are mirroring Jesus rather than the church. It just mean The net result is that Christianity under 40 today is increasingly compassionate, progressive and holds more common ground with Bernie Sanders than does middle America.

My experience is that there is confusion everywhere!

There are certainly massive generational differences (again speaking in generalities), with older folks tending to be fine with sitting in a given building sunday mornings and signing onto that place's set of beliefs, whereas younger folks tend to be turned off by the traditional organized denominational settings and either don't attend or look for alternative situations. I've read/listened to a couple things recently about "The Dones", a term for a growing number of Christians who are done with the traditional church structures and ways of doing things. A researcher at a university, I think maybe it was Northern Colorado, found that The Dones often are some of the most active committed folks back when they were in an organized church setting, but got burned out/burned in various ways and threw in the towel on that way of doing things. Quite interesting. I know some folks who are in that boat. Really though, whether you go sunday and sit in a pew or meet a friend at the local coffee house for some fellowship over a bagel, the important thing is you find fellowship and encouragement and have folks in your life who point you to what is important in life.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Thought further about this. Not sure what you identify as 'truth'.

The way I as a Christian discover what religious truth is via my previously stated prioritization. There's a lot of stuff in the Bible...prioritize on what Jesus said...and the 'truth' for a Christian by definition can't be any more difficult than that. If it is more complicated or obscure, then its likely you're losing focus of the Word and leaving the path.



Then you went to the wrong place. I can't speak to those churches obviously...but if their big picture was not focused on the golden rule and other teachings, then they're leaving the Christian path. I've been to a number of non denominational large churches in Mpls and they're focused on compassion and support for the underprivileged. One might say 'oh, but these may be run by wierdos'. But because they all have the same message of compassion and peace...i.e., what Jesus said...they're more legit than those that don't.

In the end, Christianity has a couple important tenants...but its a also rich, rich toolbox which if understood and used properly will give one a ton of non-spiritual benefits. The churches you cite have a toolbox designed for others, and in addition to be in danger of leaving the Path, it also sounds like they don't offer the toolbox that's right for you.

This is a great post.

 

[MissThundercat]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I woke up to find the following message in my Facebook inbox on Sunday:

Happy Birthday. You were on my heart this morning ... didn't know then that it was your birthday, now I understand the burden. The enemy of our souls rejoices when our choices turn us away from the Wisdom of the Word. Praying that the warrior angels of Heaven battle mightily for the rescue of your soul and release from the bondage that holds you. Your mother left you a legacy of faith that is redemptive and true, but not automatic--you must choose to embrace it. I pray your complacency and peace will be disrupted until you do. Amen.

Is she praying for my mental anguish? Because I've been dealing with severe clinical depression/anxiety since June of 2014. If she wants me to return to God, she has an odd way of showing it...

 

[Timothy A]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I woke up to find the following message in my Facebook inbox on Sunday:

Is she praying for my mental anguish? Because I've been dealing with severe clinical depression/anxiety since June of 2014. If she wants me to return to God, she has an odd way of showing it...

That's kinda out there.....The only part I like is "faith that is redemptive and true, but not automatic--you must choose to embrace it." Hopefully you are making good progress with your depression and anxiety, I have a sister who has the same issues. For the last few year's she's had very good control over her issues.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I have often that what you described as your faith sounded more like a philosophy than a religion, 5mn, though I would not pretend to speak for you.

The "boundary" between "faith" and "philosophy" can be very blurry, if there even is one. Is Taoism a religion or a philosophy? or Buddhism or Confucianism for that matter.

It seems so odd to me that we claim to use religion/philosophy as a guide on how to live a "good life" which generally is measured on how we act and what we do. Yet the argument is rarely over how we act and what we do, it is on what motivates us to act that way. From an external perspective, I don't really "care" what you profess, the only thing that matters to me is how you behave. The rest is your private personal business.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Yet the argument is rarely over how we act and what we do, it is on what motivates us to act that way.

There is no argument as to how we should act because I believe the west's most important philosophy and religion (Christianity) set the tone once the Bible was in the hands of the people. Once that happened, a common opinion as to what is 'right' was ingrained into society resulting societal change that happened starting with the 17th and going all the way through the 20th century. So today, we're fairly aligned on what Jesus said is in general the right stuff. Its cool when people act in a way that society has deemed as right regardless of how they get there. IMO there's just better guidance to get there when you've got a foundation to your approach. Christianity gives that as well as (better than?) anything else.

This is a great post.

Thanks.

As stated, Christianity in America offers a great toolbox available providing all sorts of potential non spiritual benefits to anyone...including support, strength, camaraderie, peace, comfort, happiness, learnings, and importantly direction. And all this power all comes from four 2000 year old short stories about a single guy. The surprising thing is that there's no prerequisite for the benefits. Anyone can have them, anytime, for free. And its only then...that maybe, just maybe...faith will come from the experience.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

There is no argument as to how we should act because I believe the west's most important philosophy and religion (Christianity) set the tone once the Bible was in the hands of the people.

Translation: "I'm a Protestant."

In actuality, there is no argument as to how we should act because I believe the west's most influential philosophers (Plato for epistemology and Aristotle for ontology) set the tone once science replaced religion as the immediate frame of reference for daily life of the people.

Translation: "I'm a Humanist."

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

As stated, Christianity in America offers a great toolbox available providing all sorts of potential non spiritual benefits to anyone...including support, strength, camaraderie, peace, comfort, happiness, learnings, and importantly direction. And all this power all comes from four 2000 year old short stories about a single guy. The surprising thing is that there's no prerequisite for the benefits. Anyone can have them, anytime, for free. And its only then...that maybe, just maybe...faith will come from the experience.

The best part is you can have all these benefits without any belief in the supernatural aspects of Christianity. Ever since the Enlightenment separated Christianity from literalism, those of us who reject the supernatural can still live within a naturalism that still borrows heavily from Christian ethics. The thing people have lost sight of for the last few decades is that "Supernatural Christians" and "Natural Christians" can peacefully and happily co-exist, not just within a country or even a town, but within a family and even a marriage (and even, perhaps, in a single head).