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The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

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Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

but also said that with class warfare in this country that it would be shouted down for being an unequal system. I was then shouted down.

LOL.

"Follow my plan and the poor are screwed."

"Gee, isn't that a little hard on the poor?"

"CLASS WARFARE!!!!"
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

Just have the middle class pay for the rich and the poors health care. Problem solved.

Democrat: "The middle class pays for the rich, the middle class, and the poor."

Republican: "The middle class pays for the rich and the middle class. Ef the poor."

Libertarian with a job: "Everybody pays for their own stuff!"

Libertarian without a job: (oddly silent)

Socialist: "The rich pay-"

Everybody else: "DANGER! KILL HIM!!!"
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

LOL.

"Follow my plan and the poor are screwed."

"Gee, isn't that a little hard on the poor?"

"CLASS WARFARE!!!!"

You clearly don't understand what the system offers. Everyone is enrolled in the public system. Everyone. Then, if you wish, you can purchase additional care - either paying directly out of pocket or adding an additional private insurance on top of the standard public medical structure. It's not cutting out anyone from the system, but still allows those who are willing to purchase better service the ability to do so.
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

You clearly don't understand what the system offers. Everyone is enrolled in the public system. Everyone. Then, if you wish, you can purchase additional care - either paying directly out of pocket or adding an additional private insurance on top of the standard public medical structure. It's not cutting out anyone from the system, but still allows those who are willing to purchase better service the ability to do so.

I'm actually OK with that.

I just hate the "classwarfare" chickensh*t meme and don't see how it applies in this instance anyway.
 
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Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

I'm actually OK with that.

I just hate the "classwarfare" chickensh*t meme and don't see how it applies in this instance anyway.

Not everyone can purchase upgraded coverage and therefore it would be decried as being unequal. Inequality is a common theme in this country, and some people don't like the idea that others have more resources than others. People get snipey about it, especially if the gov't gets involved in any manner at all.
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

Not everyone can purchase upgraded coverage and therefore it would be decried as being unequal. Inequality is a common theme in this country, and some people don't like the idea that others have more resources than others. People get snipey about it, especially if the gov't gets involved in any manner at all.

To me the difference is between wants and needs. Triple bypass in basic; nose job in premium.

Compared to most places, inequality is virtually ignored in this country. It's not only not polite to talk about, it's immediately attacked as fomenting a class riot if it is. Given who really runs the country (in the practical sense of whose policies get passed), it's no surprise, since this is how power relations organize the thoughts available in the cultural landscapes they control.
 
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Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

You clearly don't understand what the system offers. Everyone is enrolled in the public system. Everyone. Then, if you wish, you can purchase additional care - either paying directly out of pocket or adding an additional private insurance on top of the standard public medical structure. It's not cutting out anyone from the system, but still allows those who are willing to purchase better service the ability to do so.

That's possible, but the elephant in the room (no pun intended) is determining what qualifies as "additional coverage". What's Constitutionally viable? What's actually affordable, especially if you consider that whatever is not additional coverage, as common or as rare as it may be, has a reduction in price elasticity? If we can get over that hurdle, there's something that works. Having an opt out is still a good thing to have, though. Not only can the hot-headed feel all empowered, but it may also save the government a buck or two.
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

To me the difference is between wants and needs. Triple bypass in basic; nose job in premium.

Compared to most places, inequality is virtually ignored in this country. It's not only not polite to talk about, it's immediately attacked as fomenting a class riot if it is. Given who really runs the country (in the practical sense of whose policies get passed), it's no surprise.

Wants and needs: Pretty much the summary of every country in history that has switched to some form of command economy. Whether you want to call it communist, fascist, socialist, marxist, whatever.
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

To me the difference is between wants and needs. Triple bypass in basic; nose job in premium.

Compared to most places, inequality is virtually ignored in this country. It's not only not polite to talk about, it's immediately attacked as fomenting a class riot if it is. Given who really runs the country (in the practical sense of whose policies get passed), it's no surprise, since this is how ruling classes organize the thoughts available in the cultural landscapes they control.

My friend had some major surgery while falling ill in Australia, I don't remember the name of it or even the organ impacted, but her scar is near the kidneys and goes down towards her hip, she described their application of these differences were in the hospital accommodations, a single room instead of a double, and a nicer cut of meat with a patient's hospital meal, little things like that. I suppose it might also be things like a basic policy would get you a plaster cast and crutches for a broken ankle, but the premium coverage would be more along the lines of those new air casts and the option for one of those knee-high carts some people have. (Again, the broken bone is just my supposition as she had surgery and not a broken bone.)
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

Wants and needs: Pretty much the summary of every country in history that has switched to some form of command economy. Whether you want to call it communist, fascist, socialist, marxist, whatever.

I do not understand what you mean. The great trick is to have a floor level where people's needs are all taken care of ("freedom from"), while protecting the ability of anyone to also work for their wants ("freedom to"). The idea that it must be all one way or the other is a false choice. Every society that ever existed was some negotiation between those two pulls.

It is a big shock in this country -- a sacrilege -- to divorce the idea of morality or "deservingness" from the meeting of basic needs. We have done this with, say, legal standing -- everyone would be aghast at someone who said an American citizen should have to pay for the presumption of innocence. We have not done it with health care, food, or housing, but it will come; it already has in many places, and those places are typically listed as the happiest countries on earth.

The Lenin-stick is pretty old and no longer works to beat over the head of anyone with the temerity to suggest that a pure market economy does not produce the best society.
 
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Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

Wants and needs: Pretty much the summary of every country in history that has switched to some form of command economy. Whether you want to call it communist, fascist, socialist, marxist, whatever.

LOL

I really wish you'd move to Somalia which apparently is your Utopia. Love to see how long you'd last.

Walker just said something in a speech about how successful governments are successful by getting people off of government. Well, let me let you in on a little secret. The richer you are the more you're getting from the government. All the infrastructure, defense, laws, etc. benefit the rich way more than the poor. So take your communism, marxist, socialism comments and put them where they belong, Fox News and the Wall Street Journal. Hell, the Governor of Indiana just proposed Pravda for his Constituents. He's Republican you know.
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

I do not understand what you mean. The great trick is to have a floor level where people's needs are all taken care of ("freedom from"), while protecting the ability of anyone to also work for their wants ("freedom to"). The idea that it must be all one way or the other is a false choice. Every society that ever existed was some negotiation between those two pulls.

It is a big shock in this country -- a sacrilege -- to divorce the idea of morality or "deservingness" from the meeting of basic needs. We have done this with, say, legal standing -- everyone would be aghast at someone who said an American citizen should have to pay for the presumption of innocence. We have not done it with health care, food, or housing, but it will come; it already has in many places, and those places are typically listed as the happiest countries on earth.

The Lenin-stick is pretty old and no longer works to beat over the head of anyone with the temerity to suggest that a pure market economy does not produce the best society.

You typed exactly what I mean in the first paragraph. Wants somehow become needs, the mob populace turns to someone that will give them those "want-needs" I'll call it, without paying attention to any of the baggage that goes with it, it gets implemented, and all hell breaks loose. It's exactly what happened when Julius Caesar rose to power. It's exactly what happened when Hitler rose to power. It's exactly what's happening with Obama in power. America is not in a bubble with this.

You know what the sad thing is? There is no presumption of innocence anymore today. People have to pay for it through attorneys. And then there are some that don't get that chance, when a cop decides to be judge, jury, executioner, and in the eyes of his mob, victim.
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

Well, let me let you in on a little secret. The richer you are the more you're getting from the government. All the infrastructure, defense, laws, etc. benefit the rich way more than the poor.

Like all those western "rugged individualists" who would be nowhere without government railroad and water projects. Or southern Tea Partiers whose states lap at the trough of government spending which liberal states replenish.

Users never know they're users.
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

You typed exactly what I mean in the first paragraph. Wants somehow become needs, the mob populace turns to someone that will give them those "want-needs" I'll call it, without paying attention to any of the baggage that goes with it, it gets implemented, and all hell breaks loose. It's exactly what happened when Julius Caesar rose to power. It's exactly what happened when Hitler rose to power. It's exactly what's happening with Obama in power. America is not in a bubble with this.

This narrative is always out there and it's always bunk. In a democratic society, the people paying for the wants and letting the needs float on the market economy are the same people who are voting on where the wants/needs line is. We are ALWAYS doing this. Why do we still subsidize oil companies? It's politically-determined as a "need." Why don't we offer a free college education to every citizen? It's politically-determined as a "want." There is no objective measuring stick -- these things will change when voters change them. But at all times, you are what your record says you are.

The idea that this is a political process is deeply disturbing only if you believe there is some ex nihilo way of doing it. But what would that be? The free market (which doesn't actually work that way, since wealth simply crowds out everything else) would be an incredibly lousy way of doing it since it would not meet basic moral rules of the value of individual people, which directly conflict with the rules of how to maximize wealth.

Reality is a tug of war. You can't just say "it should be natural, so everybody when I count three drop your rope." For one thing, they won't, and for another, then there's no way to establish where the center point of the rope should be. It has to either be centered democratically or by some form of fiat, which you are theoretically against.

Let the democratic market work.
 
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Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

You typed exactly what I mean in the first paragraph. Wants somehow become needs, the mob populace turns to someone that will give them those "want-needs" I'll call it, without paying attention to any of the baggage that goes with it, it gets implemented, and all hell breaks loose. It's exactly what happened when Julius Caesar rose to power. It's exactly what happened when Hitler rose to power. It's exactly what's happening with Obama in power. America is not in a bubble with this.

You know what the sad thing is? There is no presumption of innocence anymore today. People have to pay for it through attorneys. And then there are some that don't get that chance, when a cop decides to be judge, jury, executioner, and in the eyes of his mob, victim.

Oh, really? Well explain why the rich owner of the Milwaukee Bucks is getting 220 million from the taxpayers while the normal citizens attending college in the state are seeing their budgets cut by 300 million?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/...n-to-build-Bucks-a-new-arena?detail=facebook#

The system is rigged and it ain't rigged the way you think it's rigged.
 
Oh, really? Well explain why the rich owner of the Milwaukee Bucks is getting 220 million from the taxpayers while the normal citizens attending college in the state are seeing their budgets cut by 300 million?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/...n-to-build-Bucks-a-new-arena?detail=facebook#

The system is rigged and it ain't rigged the way you think it's rigged.

Job creator vs unwashed people who invaded his capitol?

You play ball with the governor or get the bat up your a..
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

The system is rigged and it ain't rigged the way you think it's rigged.

you and I have consistently agreed on this point whole-heartedly. Both parties rig the system for their own financial gain and the financial gain of their core constituencies: and so we have tort lawyers + public sector union employees versus rich business people. and BOTH parties depend upon Wall Street financiers to place government debt issues to pay for their crony capital largesse.

"Meet the new Boss, same as the old Boss."
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

Oh, really? Well explain why the rich owner of the Milwaukee Bucks is getting 220 million from the taxpayers while the normal citizens attending college in the state are seeing their budgets cut by 300 million?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/...n-to-build-Bucks-a-new-arena?detail=facebook#

The system is rigged and it ain't rigged the way you think it's rigged.

If you're trying to lib-troll me over sports, it's not really effective because you're preaching to the choir. However, neither sports nor colleges are needs. What's wrong with an apprenticeship, learning culinary, auto maintenance, electrical repair, things like that? Yes, the onus is on those in the trade to offer said apprenticeships, but education no longer seems to be cutting it as "experience".

Yes, I am aware that wants and needs are going to move all over the place; I'm not naïve. The problem is the nature of people being of the mindset that they expect something to be provided for them. Is that going to change? Probably not, especially considering natural laws surrounding the "path of least resistance". Exploitation is going to happen; welcome to avarice. The question is: how do we reach a sort of equilibrium? We almost had it in the late 1700's with those embracing freedom going to the Americas, but then imperialism started the cycle all over again, and we aren't going to see it happen again until space travel allows us to reach other habitable planets. And even then, who isn't to say we just have a bunch of star wars?
 
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