What's new
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

Pelosi: People won’t appreciate reform until it passes
Speaker Nancy Pelosi said Tuesday that people won’t appreciate how great the Democrat’s health plan is until after it passes.

“You’ve heard about the controversies, the process about the bill…but I don’t know if you’ve heard that it is legislation for the future – not just about health care for America, but about a healthier America,” she told the National Association of Counties annual legislative conference, which has drawn about 2,000 local officials to Washington. “But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it – away from the fog of the controversy.”

Source: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/the-context-behind-nancy-pelosis-famous-we-have-to-pass-the-bill-quote/
(full quote provided for context)

We'll we found out what's in it: condescension and deceit, as evidenced by "A top architect of ObamaCare is under heavy fire after saying the “stupidity” of the American public was critical to the law’s passage — along with deliberate subterfuges."
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

Source: http://www.mediaite.com/tv/the-context-behind-nancy-pelosis-famous-we-have-to-pass-the-bill-quote/
(full quote provided for context)

We'll we found out what's in it: condescension and deceit, as evidenced by "A top architect of ObamaCare is under heavy fire after saying the “stupidity” of the American public was critical to the law’s passage — along with deliberate subterfuges."



So.....what exactly is the issue with her saying "we (as in Congress) has to pass the bill so you (the public) can know what is in it". Unless the public are mind readers, isn't that how it always works???
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

He had nothing to do with actually writing the law.

After Mr. Gruber helped the administration put together the basic principles of the proposal, the White House lent him to Capitol Hill to help Congressional staff members draft the specifics of the legislation. - New York Times

The MIT economics professor, best known until now for his key role advising the Obama administration on the Affordable Care Act - The Washington Post

Jonathan Gruber, a consultant who served as a technical consultant to the Obama administration and Congress during the creation of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act - Snopes.com
Clearly the preponderance of evidence is on your side because you said so.
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

So.....what exactly is the issue with her saying "we (as in Congress) has to pass the bill so you (the public) can know what is in it". Unless the public are mind readers, isn't that how it always works???

The Law of Unintended Consequences will always be enforced and normally happens after good faith intent; however, here the problem is "deliberate subterfuges".
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

Clearly the preponderance of evidence is on your side because you said so.


You seem to be struggling with this one, from the very article you sited!

"After Mr. Gruber helped the administration put together the basic principles of the proposal, the White House lent him to Capitol Hill to help Congressional staff members draft the specifics of the legislation.

This assignment primarily involved asking his graduate student researchers to tweak his model’s software code. It was also almost entirely conducted from his home office, while his children were at school and then after they had gone to bed. "


I'm sorry if you're all butt hurt that I caught you in a deception, but truth be told it wasn't that hard as the next sentence in your article showed the true nature of the guy's contributions (having an assistant run economic models). Not sure what your major was in college, but running a model isn't the same as writing a paper, or a law.
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

You seem to be struggling with this one, from the very article you sited!

"After Mr. Gruber helped the administration put together the basic principles of the proposal, the White House lent him to Capitol Hill to help Congressional staff members draft the specifics of the legislation.

This assignment primarily involved asking his graduate student researchers to tweak his model’s software code. It was also almost entirely conducted from his home office, while his children were at school and then after they had gone to bed. "


I'm sorry if you're all butt hurt that I caught you in a deception, but truth be told it wasn't that hard as the next sentence in your article showed the true nature of the guy's contributions (having an assistant run economic models). Not sure what your major was in college, but running a model isn't the same as writing a paper, or a law.
No struggle. No deception. He worked at home and helped devise the policy. You are correct, he didn't actually write the act. He simply provided the basis for it. You know, the theory behind it. No different than an architect who designs but doesn't actually build the structure. Your attempt to trivialize his involvement is laughable. Comic genius at it's finest.
But the real nuance is in the history and the policy details. Gruber was an architect of Obamacare. But he wasn’t the only architect. The staffs to former Sen. Max Baucus (D-Mont.) and Rep. Henry Waxman (D-Calif.), among others, deserve their fair share of credit or blame, depending on one’s perspective. - Huffington Post
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

So.....what exactly is the issue with her saying "we (as in Congress) has to pass the bill so you (the public) can know what is in it". Unless the public are mind readers, isn't that how it always works???


actually, no, that's not how it always works. It's never supposed to work that way. Remember the promise that the draft language of every bill would be posted on-line three days before any bill was voted on?
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

No struggle. No deception. He worked at home and helped devise the policy. You are correct, he didn't actually write the act. He simply provided the basis for it. You know, the theory behind it. No different than an architect who designs but doesn't actually build the structure. Your attempt to trivialize his involvement is laughable. Comic genius at it's finest.


But he's commenting on the writing of the law, which is where your fraudelent argument gets exposed. His involvement with Romneycare, and then subsequent modeling of health care trends for the ACA is great, but it has zero to do with the wording of the law that's in question now. He had nothing to do with writing the health care concept into an actual law, the one that got passed. Don't get mad at me because you can't grasp a fairly simple concept. Its like saying its my fault you're all dinosaurs living in the past. While I agree with that statement, I didn't cause you guys to fossilize.
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

But he's commenting on the writing of the law, which is where your fraudelent argument gets exposed. His involvement with Romneycare, and then subsequent modeling of health care trends for the ACA is great, but it has zero to do with the wording of the law that's in question now. He had nothing to do with writing the health care concept into an actual law, the one that got passed. Don't get mad at me because you can't grasp a fairly simple concept. Its like saying its my fault you're all dinosaurs living in the past. While I agree with that statement, I didn't cause you guys to fossilize.
That's akin to saying that since Oppenheimer didn't actually build the atomic bomb, he had zero to do with it. Thanks for confirming Mr White's theorem.
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

That's akin to saying that since Oppenheimer didn't actually build the atomic bomb, he had zero to do with it. Thanks for confirming Mr White's theorem.



Ummm, no it isn't but if it makes you feel better, run with it!
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

That's akin to saying that since Oppenheimer didn't actually build the atomic bomb, he had zero to do with it. Thanks for confirming Mr White's theorem.

It's akin to saying that if Oppenheimer's contribution to the bomb was the theory, he's not the best guy to go to for the finer details of how to build the trigger. (I don't know if he really was a good guy to go to for that info, but I could imagine him knowing quite a lot about some aspects of it but also being completely unable to discuss certain details of the assemblies.)
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

At least one lifelong Democrat partisan recognizes how much damage these revelations about how the backers of PPACA deliberately used deceit and deception to sell the plan. I do understand where people like Gruber are coming from: "this plan is so very, very important that we are 'obligated' to deceive people if necessary in order to get it in place." Of course, understanding why people lie doesn't condone it.

Anyway,

I grew up in a Democratic family. I have been a registered Democrat since age 18, a Democratic candidate for statewide office in Colorado and a party precinct captain in that caucus state. I’ve volunteered for numerous Democratic candidates and contributed to party causes and campaigns. The 2014 election results were extremely disappointing for me, but hardly a surprise.

....

ObamaCare is a failure. For anyone who thinks this is a misprint because no Democratic activist would make such a comment, let me add that it is too big, too complicated and too expensive. Without a public option within its network of exchanges, ObamaCare is a giant blank check to the insurance companies that pushed it through Congress. It punishes responsible consumers like me and treats younger individuals as fools who are expected to pay the bills while not paying attention.

....

For most Democrats in Congress, Medicare was originally a model for health-care reform. Single-payer, universal coverage was the favored approach. Then Republicans let loose the “socialized medicine” boogeyman and Democrats panicked.

Fearful that doing nothing was worse than doing the wrong thing, Democrats gave up on Medicare for the masses and opted for a drastic alternative. ObamaCare is an outrageous combination of private-market inflation, government bureaucracy, excessive mandates and a ridiculously delayed implementation schedule. When the thing finally kicked in, it hit hard—and there is plenty more pain on the way.

Worst of all, ObamaCare looks and feels exactly like what it is: a health-care plan devised by lawyers and corporate executives rather than true health-care providers. Democrats are top-heavy with attorneys, and this hurts the party on many issues.

....

We Democrats need to get over ourselves, start anew on a national health-care policy, and return to our progressive principles. We claim to be the party of the underdogs, but on ObamaCare we simply catered to a different set of fat cats.

We resent Republicans who act morally superior and pretend to have a monopoly on patriotism, but an elitist attitude doesn’t look any better on us when we refuse to admit that ObamaCare is broken beyond repair. Measurable outcomes and actual effectiveness are the honest indicators of a successful program, not good intentions or high hopes. [emphasis added]

We say that we are the party of the people, but “the people” too often become a singular, monolithic concept for us. We speak for the people, don’t you know, because we can decide what is best for them so they really don’t need to speak for themselves.

The people decided otherwise on Election Day. I hope my party is listening. When the next Congress convenes in 2015, Democrats need to work with the new Republican majority, repeal ObamaCare, override a presidential veto if necessary, and start from scratch on health-care reform.

which is kind of ironic, in a way, as I personally would not even try to "repeal" Obamacare so much as I would fix the various problems with it. The concept of state-run insurance exchanges could work really well, as long as you don't impose all sorts of mandates on the kind of coverage and features that "must" be included.

The healthcare system needs three things really, really badly right now: innovation, price competition, and doctor-patient control over treatment decisions. Too much of PPACA does exactly the opposite. I don't care how noble your intentions were, the only thing that matters is how the program actually works. and it is failing to meet its expressed goals.
 
Last edited:
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

I do understand where people like Gruber are coming from: "this plan is so very, very important that we are 'obligated' to deceive people if necessary in order to get it in place."

Of course, that's not even close what he actually said, but then you've never been known for being accurate with your statements.
 
Re: The PPACA Implementation Phase II - Love it or Lose it!

As I read it, he's saying he wants a single-payer system.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top