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The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

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Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

Priceless said:
Did we adopt his plan as it was written at the time of this speech, or was it changed along the way by Congress?
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I doubt that his plan was actually "written" at the time of the speech, but I don't think the basic principles changed all that much. I'm 99% certain that Obama (and other supporters) were using similar language up to and even after the vote - this is just the first thing I came across on Google.

Are we really going to get into another debate about the meaning of the word "is"?
 
Priceless said:
Did we adopt his plan as it was written at the time of this speech, or was it changed along the way by Congress?
Click to expand...

El Presidente and the Democratic party own PPACA. They Democrats passed it and he, with great flourish, signed it.

Its success or failure is their legacy.
 
Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

joecct said:
UPS has told their employees that their spouses will no longer be covered by UPS's health insurance if they can be covered by their own employer's insurance. Supposedly will save UPS millions.
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Do you think UPS would've done that anyway? Besides being a convenient scapegoat, what exactly does the ACA do to cause that outcome?
 
Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

unofan said:
Do you think UPS would've done that anyway? Besides being a convenient scapegoat, what exactly does the ACA do to cause that outcome?
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Given they're saying "no longer", there's your answer. For a group that constantly boasts about how "smart" they are, you really are dumb...

The point is that as much as employees are required to pay for insurance, the employers must be putting in a certain share as well, and with the cost of insurance rising despite the huff-and-puffers' insistence, the company cannot afford to foot that bill without you needing to pay a couple more bucks to send a package somewhere.

Congratulations FDR, once again your ideas screwed over the country.
 
Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

manurespreader said:
As I said, I'm in favor of the law but it comes at a price.
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I've been sympathetic to the expressed aims and goals while being highly critical of the actual language of the law and what it actually does in practice.

So far, a law that purports to increase access has caused more people to lose coverage instead (the drafters apparently didn't even know that mini-med policies even existed, although hundreds of thousands of people were covered by those plans before the law made them illegal).
 
Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

unofan said:
This whole thing is kind of the point of the law, which is to increase the amount of people insured (since single payer is apparently off limits here).
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while the "point" of the law may have been in theory to increase the number of people insured, in practice it has had the opposite effect so far: mini-med plans outlawed, causing hundreds of thousands of people to lose what had been perfectly viable plans.
 
Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

FlagDUDE08 said:
Given they're saying "no longer", there's your answer. For a group that constantly boasts about how "smart" they are, you really are dumb...
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Because businesses never lie. Like when the owner of Papa John's said the price of pizza was going to go up to pay for ObamaCare and Jon Stewart and others showed that costs under the new law would be about a dime per pizza. Meanwhile, the cost for the pizza ingredients has skyrocketed because of the massive drought in the heartland. So, what is more likely to cause the price of pizza to go up? The dime they spend on health care or the dollar they spend on ingredients?
 
Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

Priceless said:
Because businesses never lie. Like when the owner of Papa John's said the price of pizza was going to go up to pay for ObamaCare and Jon Stewart and others showed that costs under the new law would be about a dime per pizza. Meanwhile, the cost for the pizza ingredients has skyrocketed because of the massive drought in the heartland. So, what is more likely to cause the price of pizza to go up? The dime they spend on health care or the dollar they spend on ingredients?
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Is this a trick question? Why wouldn't both things cause the price to go up???
 
Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

ScoobyDoo said:
Yeah, UPS is pure as driven snow. I know it, everyone knows it.
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I'd venture their packages drivers make more money than you do, pure as the driven snow? I doubt it but they pay well
 
Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

Not sure how this plays into the current discussion-but my wife just received a notice from her health insurer-Horizon BS BC of NJ-announcing her new monthly rate to start October 2013. Although every year has had an increase, this notice indicates that to maintain her current policy, the increase amounts to 19.975%. Truly absurd when we are being told that inflation is well in check and that we should expect the Social Security COLA increase to be around 1.4% starting in January.
 
Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

Priceless said:
the cost for the pizza ingredients has skyrocketed because of the massive drought in the heartland.
Click to expand...

there was an interesting story about this on NPR a couple weeks ago. People fret about it when the price of corn (for example) swings around, but the guy they had on pointed out that even in a commodity product that's pretty much pure corn, like a $4 box of corn flakes, the cost of the corn in there is less than a dime. Changes in the price of crops have virtually no affect on the prices of the food we buy in the store. Gas and other things (electricity, labor, packaging, marketing etc) are much bigger factors than the per bushel crop prices. I know, off the subject. Health care probably doesn't register either.
 
Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

geezer said:
there was an interesting story about this on NPR a couple weeks ago. People fret about it when the price of corn (for example) swings around, but the guy they had on pointed out that even in a commodity product that's pretty much pure corn, like a $4 box of corn flakes, the cost of the corn in there is less than a dime. Changes in the price of crops have virtually no affect on the prices of the food we buy in the store. Gas and other things (electricity, labor, packaging, marketing etc) are much bigger factors than the per bushel crop prices. I know, off the subject. Health care probably doesn't register either.
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Except that when people say "cost of labor" they're including all of the costs of hiring a worker - including health care. Health care is a non-trivial component of labor, which is a non-trivial component of overall cost.

I know, I know - health care shouldn't be tied to employment, blah, blah, blah. I can agree with that, even while recognizing that rising health care costs do, in fact, affect the prices that we pay for everything from hamburgers to SUVs. If we had single-payer, then prices would be lower, but we'd pay more taxes - would we really have more buying power? Unless/until the underlying cost of care is changed, we're just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
 
Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

FlagDUDE08 said:
Your children become forced to get vaccinations, and the doctors screw up. What happens? The parents are charged with murder. http://www.naturalnews.com/041781_vaccinations_murder_charge_parents.html
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What a one-sided, steaming bag of poo that article is. The "sources" you cite in your concern trolling are just becoming laughable at this point - a website that runs ads pushing colloidal silver and various other garbage "supplements" is not a medical authority.
 
Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

Ha, and when I clicked over to Facebook, the first post I saw was from a doctor friend of mine linking this article.

Interestingly, I used to live very close to this church - even kept my sailboat on Eagle Mountain Lake.
 
Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

LynahFan said:
Except that when people say "cost of labor" they're including all of the costs of hiring a worker - including health care. Health care is a non-trivial component of labor, which is a non-trivial component of overall cost.

I know, I know - health care shouldn't be tied to employment, blah, blah, blah. I can agree with that, even while recognizing that rising health care costs do, in fact, affect the prices that we pay for everything from hamburgers to SUVs. If we had single-payer, then prices would be lower, but we'd pay more taxes - would we really have more buying power? Unless/until the underlying cost of care is changed, we're just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
Click to expand...

There was a report on Chris Hayes last night that showed how 6 bags of salt water in a hospital cost the insurance company paying the bill over 500 dollars. That's what's wrong with Health Care. Countries that have single payer do not allow that to happen. Consumers that spend all their time at Wal-Mart would never pay 500 dollars for 6 bags of salt water. Yet, with our employer based, insurance company based health care system this is the norm.

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/all-in-/52851971#52851971

There's the video for anyone that wants to see it.
 
Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

ScoobyDoo said:
There was a report on Chris Hayes last night that showed how 6 bags of salt water in a hospital cost the insurance company paying the bill over 500 dollars. That's what's wrong with Health Care. Countries that have single payer do not allow that to happen. Consumers that spend all their time at Wal-Mart would never pay 500 dollars for 6 bags of salt water. Yet, with our employer based, insurance company based health care system this is the norm.

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/all-in-/52851971#52851971

There's the video for anyone that wants to see it.
Click to expand...
What you described happens in all third-party payer systems when the person receiving benefits has no financial incentive to mind the prices.

Do you really expect things to get better with a single payer system? People will continue with the same practices, get their hands slapped by the government, and then price controls will come in. What happens when a government sets price controls? Think back to the 70's - hell, look at cereal boxes today. In an effort to handle price restrictions (in the case of the cereal boxes it was the unwillingness of consumers to pay higher prices during the Great Recession), providers of goods would keep the same prices, but the quantity of goods received for the given price would decrease. In the case of boxed cereals, if you read the net weight value on the box, they're down about 10% from about ten years ago, yet the prices remained relatively flat.

A similar situation will happen with the single payer system, where you simply will not receive as much health care as you want because there aren't the resources to provide it. It's a time tested axiom in economics, people take as much of a "free" good or service as they can until they're satisfied or restricted by an outside force. the same will happen in a single payer healthcare system. Those being responsible will suffer for it.
 
Re: The PPACA - Implementation Phase I

ScoobyDoo said:
There was a report on Chris Hayes last night that showed how 6 bags of salt water in a hospital cost the insurance company paying the bill over 500 dollars. That's what's wrong with Health Care. Countries that have single payer do not allow that to happen. Consumers that spend all their time at Wal-Mart would never pay 500 dollars for 6 bags of salt water. Yet, with our employer based, insurance company based health care system this is the norm.

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/all-in-/52851971#52851971

There's the video for anyone that wants to see it.
Click to expand...

Move to Vermont, and let those of us living in the other 49 states live in peace.
 
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