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The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Issa was an epic dick today. What a clown. I finally got to watch all the video from the hearing.

I guess it's OK because Boehner seems to be not bothered this, by the breech of rules and protocol by Issa. What's a lousy 5 minutes after he got 15 minutes ? This happens session after session for 9 months at 14 million so far.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

I am more than a little surprised that The Supremes agreed to hear this case in the first place. It has the potential to be one of the most entertaining ones ever!


Steve Driehaus...represented Ohio’s 1st Congressional District — until [the 2010 election].

During his 2010 bid for re-election, the Susan B. Anthony List accused Driehaus of voting for taxpayer-funded abortion because of his ObamaCare vote. Driehaus responded by filing a criminal complaint under an Ohio law that criminalizes “false statements” against a candidate. Then, after Ohio’s voters gave him the old heave-ho, Driehaus sued the Susan B. Anthony List on the grounds it had deprived him of his “livelihood” as a congressman.

The whole mess is headed for the Supreme Court, which will hear arguments April 22.

[Basically, he is] a politician who sues on the grounds his election defeat caused him “injury in connection with his trade or occupation.”

Wow. I lost an election so anyone who spoke out against me caused me financial harm??? At least one of the Justices must have a puckish sense of humor to get his case placed on the docket. Colbert is going to have fun with this one.


[The case has already brought about some surprises.] When was the last time you saw the American Civil Liberties Union siding with Citizens United (yes, that Citizens United)? And these are just two of the 21 highly diverse organizations that have filed amicus briefs supporting the Susan B. Anthony List’s bid to get Ohio’s law struck down as an outrageous restriction on free speech.

among these amicus briefs is one written for the libertarian Cato Institute by P.J. O’Rourke, author and one-time editor of National Lampoon. It’s almost worth having this bad law just to get this brief, a masterpiece that underscores the serious contribution satire brings to politics.

Cato starts out strong. In the introduction, it includes “Read my lips: no new taxes!” and “I did not have sexual relations with that woman” as evidence that political claims and the mockery they invite (“whether true, mostly true, mostly not true, or entirely fantastic”) are “cornerstones of American democracy.”

At issue, says Cato, is “truthiness” — “truths” asserted “from the gut,” often “without regard to evidence or logic.” ...

Laws like Ohio’s, it points out, “do not replace truthiness, satire, and snark with high-minded ideas and ‘just the facts.’ ” Instead, they chill debate and “turn commonplace jibber-jabber into a protracted legal dispute.”

It goes on to question whether anyone, let alone the Ohio Elections Commission, can determine truth: “Many campaign statements cannot easily be categorized as simply ‘true’ or ‘false.’ According to *Politifact.com, President Obama’s claim that ‘if you like your health-care plan you can keep it’ was true five years before it was named the ‘Lie of the Year.’ ”

...

Cato’s argues we don’t need unelected government commissions to call out falsehoods. There are plenty of players willing to do that on their own. “And if this court isn’t yet convinced of this point,” reads the brief, “amici have but two words more on the subject: Anthony Weiner.”

All in all, it’s a call for a robust give and take in our political debate.

A former editor of National Lampoon petitioning The Court! I cut about half the story out of the section quoted above, there's a lot more snark at the link if you are in the mood for it.
 
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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

And if everything was reversed about the case (so it was say, someone from the other party suing cause a Pro Choice group did it) I bet you would find it "interesting" and discuss how you think it might be worth hearing.
 
(1) Whether, to challenge a speech-suppressive law, a party whose speech is arguably proscribed must prove that authorities would certainly and successfully prosecute him, as the Sixth Circuit holds, or should the court presume that a credible threat of prosecution exists absent desuetude or a firm commitment by prosecutors not to enforce the law, as seven other Circuits hold; and (2) whether the Sixth Circuit erred by holding, in direct conflict with the Eighth Circuit, that state laws proscribing “false” political speech are not subject to pre-enforcement First Amendment review so long as the speaker maintains that its speech is true, even if others who enforce the law manifestly disagree.

the actual questions presented from an unbiased source (aka SCOTUSblog).
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

While this isn't quite the right thread for it, it's the closest we have available, and it does 'close the circle' from an earlier conversation.

The word 'polis' for 'city' is also the root for 'policy' (how to run a city properly) and 'politics' (how to decide how to run a city properly). According to US historians, from the 1790s through the 1890s, "politics" was a conversation (sometimes quite heated) about policy differences. Starting with TR, politics, for specific issues only, turned into a moral crusade. Woodrow Wilson expanded 'politics' to be a moral crusade over all issues; he was the first President to routinely and methodically rally the public to exert pressure on Congress to pass problem-solving legislation. Those methods were since honed and refined by FDR, LBJ, and BHO. Before TR, however, they were considered unseemly. The 10th article of impeachment for Andrew Johnson was his attempt to appeal directly to the public to pressure Congress! (my, how times have changed, eh?)


The following excerpt uses healthcare debate as an example. From A “WEAPON IN THE HANDS OF THE PEOPLE”: THE RHETORICAL PRESIDENCY IN HISTORICAL AND CONCEPTUAL CONTEXT by Jeffrey Friedman, Critical Review 19 (2–3): 197–240:

few of those who oppose “universal, quality” health-care proposals contend that it is a good thing, or a matter of indifference, that some people are devastated by the costs of medical care for a severe illness.

So, on the surface at least, it would appear that the opponents share the ends of the proposals’ proponents. But if the opponents don’t discuss the proposals’ allegedly counterproductive effects; or if they discuss them and fail to be heard, or to be understood; then those effects will remain invisible to the proponents. It seems to follow logically that the opponents, having no legitimate reason for opposition, must be evil—they must have malign intent. Why else would they oppose a measure that “we all know we have to see” enacted (Clinton 2008) if not because they are insensitive to the suffering that “we all know” the measure will stop?

The real division between us and them, therefore, must be between those who, like us, are “compassionate, moral, or progressive,” and those who, like them, are “insensitive, selfish, or backward” (Tulis 1987, 29–30)…. [However, this] divisiveness is inadvertent. The politicians who pronounce such divisions, and their followers, have little choice but to believe that their opponents are uncaring—given their own equation of their proposals with their compassionate intentions, and the absence of overt conflict over those intentions. If we all claim to agree about the ends, and no serious qualms about the actual effects of the means are acknowledged, then our opponents must be lying about their real ends. “The opponent has always to be explained, and the last explanation that we ever look for is that he sees a different set of facts” (Lippmann [1922]1977, 82).

Antipathy of this sort will tend to flow in both directions. The opponents of the proposal, trapped in their own version of “the facts”—which they see not as an “interpretation” of the possibly counterproductive effects of the measure, but as an obvious truth—will attribute sinister motives to its proponents. Why else would they favor a measure that is so clearly bound to produce disastrous results? Since each side interprets its version of the facts as obviously true—as if it has been delivered by reality directly to their minds, without mediation by the selective perception and retention of “information”—it will be “almost impossible for them to credit each other with honesty” (Lippmann [1922] 1977, 82). “Out of the opposition,” therefore, “we make villains and conspiracies” (ibid., 83). [emphases added]

In other words, you think that "we have to help the uninsured" means we need to use specific plan x. I reply that specific plan x will not work as you expect. You respond by calling me callous, evil, and heartless. i answer back by calling you stupid and self-absorbed, more concerned about soothing your own guilty conscience than actually helping people for real, and on and on we go....
 
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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

PPACA back in front of SCOTUS today.

There are actually two cases today. One involves Hobby Lobby, a chain of crafts store run along Christian principles by the Green family. The other is Conestoga Wood specialties, a family-run Mennonite woodworking enterprise. Neither objects to birth control per se, but both object to underwriting drugs they believe are abortifacients. [emphasis added]

It will be awhile before the ruling, betting here is that the Supremes don't even resort to a constitutional principle to overrule Sebelius, et al and find in favor of Hobby Lobby / Conestoga Wood on a 5-4 vote based on the Restoration of Religious Freedom Act.

It is annoying how many people bray about "birth control" when the issue, again, is forcing people who believe abortion is murder to become accomplices to a practice they abhor.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

PPACA back in front of SCOTUS today.



It will be awhile before the ruling, betting here is that the Supremes don't even resort to a constitutional principle to overrule Sebelius, et al and find in favor of Hobby Lobby / Conestoga Wood on a 5-4 vote based on the Restoration of Religious Freedom Act.

It is annoying how many people bray about "birth control" when the issue, again, is forcing people who believe abortion is murder to become accomplices to a practice they abhor.



Is this the place to point out that your predictions on court rulings regarding the ACA aren't very accurate? :D

Corporations can't have religion because they aren't actual people. If a Muslim owned corporation forces a female employee to either wear a veil or get fired, I'm curious where you'd side on that issue....
 
PPACA back in front of SCOTUS today.



It will be awhile before the ruling, betting here is that the Supremes don't even resort to a constitutional principle to overrule Sebelius, et al and find in favor of Hobby Lobby / Conestoga Wood on a 5-4 vote based on the Restoration of Religious Freedom Act.

It is annoying how many people bray about "birth control" when the issue, again, is forcing people who believe abortion is murder to become accomplices to a practice they abhor.

That's because it is about birth control, no matter how much you try to spin it another way. It's patently ridiculous to call an IUD an abortion, Not that it should really matter either way. There is no chance SCOTUS comes out with a ruling where condoms are covered but the morning after pill is not on the grounds one is an abortion and the other isn't. It's going to be an all or nothing decision for the whole mandate.

I'm assuming your spin is from the WSJ, since you didn't cite it.

Let's look at the actual questions presented, straight from SCOTUSBlog:

Hobby Lobby - Whether the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 (RFRA), 42 U.S.C. §§ 2000bb et seq., which provides that the government “shall not substantially burden a person’s exercise of religion” unless that burden is the least restrictive means to further a compelling governmental interest, allows a for-profit corporation to deny its employees the health coverage of contraceptives to which the employees are otherwise entitled by federal law, based on the religious objections of the corporation’s owners.

Conestoga - Whether the religious owners of a family business, or their closely held, for-profit corporation, have free exercise rights that are violated by the application of the contraceptive-coverage mandate of the Affordable Care Act.
 
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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

And while your prediction might be right, I wouldnt put down money on that unless you get odds. There are more avenues to get to five votes in favor of the gov't than there are hobby lobby. Scalia and Roberts are definitely swing votes on this one. Scalia is the reason for the RFRA in the first place, and Roberts is going to struggle with anything that starts to pierce the corporate veil (it's easier to justify a corporation having speech than it is religion). The only member of the left I could see going the other way is Breyer, but I doubt it.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Is this the place to point out that your predictions on court rulings regarding the ACA aren't very accurate? :D

Corporations can't have religion because they aren't actual people. If a Muslim owned corporation forces a female employee to either wear a veil or get fired, I'm curious where you'd side on that issue....
Forcing someone to wear an item of clothing that in all likelihood has nothing to do with the job they do is of course ridiculous. As is forcing corporations to fund certain peoples' choices to use birth control. As with so many things, the silly hyperbole on this is in the stratosphere. You're not taking anything away from anyone if a given corporation doesn't pay for it for free. It just means you might have to pay for it yourself, heaven forbid.
 
Forcing someone to wear an item of clothing that in all likelihood has nothing to do with the job they do is of course ridiculous. As is forcing corporations to fund certain peoples' choices to use birth control. As with so many things, the silly hyperbole on this is in the stratosphere. You're not taking anything away from anyone if a given corporation doesn't pay for it for free. It just means you might have to pay for it yourself, heaven forbid.

It's no more ridiculous than viagara and ***** pumps being covered. Yet somehow hobby lobby and the GOP are fine with that. I wonder why...
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Forcing someone to wear an item of clothing that in all likelihood has nothing to do with the job they do is of course ridiculous. As is forcing corporations to fund certain peoples' choices to use birth control. As with so many things, the silly hyperbole on this is in the stratosphere. You're not taking anything away from anyone if a given corporation doesn't pay for it for free. It just means you might have to pay for it yourself, heaven forbid.


Slippery slope argument Bob. What happens when companies start using religion to ban certain medical procedures? Can't you picture a company suddenly finding religion and objecting to a list of things just to bring down their health care costs?

If you want to change the law of the land, elect like-minded politicians and do so. However, a for-profit company can't claim its religious which is the focus of THIS CASE. Either they declare themselves a religious entity, which are exempt for the mandate, or S T F U. They can't have it both ways.

Tell me, what religion does Wal-Mart, GE, Apple and Exxon practice? Do we take a vote of all the shareholders to declare a preference for a certain denomination?
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

It's no more ridiculous than viagara and ***** pumps being covered. Yet somehow hobby lobby and the GOP are fine with that. I wonder why...

I'd be willing to bet that they'd claim that Viagara and the pumps help create life while contraception does the complete opposite.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

I'd be willing to bet that they'd claim that Viagara and the pumps help create life while contraception does the complete opposite.


Then they'd better be able to prove that's what its being used for. Should be funny to see who volunteers to testify in that case. :D
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

I'd be willing to bet that they'd claim that Viagara and the pumps help create life while contraception does the complete opposite.
Ah, I see unofan has not good point to make, so he merely claims other things are ridiculous and are paid for, so why not this also. Very weak, even by his standards.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Hmm....just the kind of narrow technicality one might expect....if it is a pass-through entity for tax purposes, is it a pass-through entity for other claims??

Chief Justice Roberts appeared to tip his hand when he told Mr. Verrilli that the parade of horribles — all kinds of religious exemptions being claimed by all sorts of employers, punching holes in the uniform application of the laws — could be avoided by a ruling limited to closely held enterprises, like S corporations that pass their earnings through to their shareholders. That would leave the issue of, say, an Exxon claiming religious freedom rights to another day. Later, Justice Breyer suggested he might be open to that type of resolution
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Hmm....just the kind of narrow technicality one might expect....if it is a pass-through entity for tax purposes, is it a pass-through entity for other claims??


Doesn't avoid the problem however. All S corporations would be free to use religion to force their beliefs on their employers regarding medical decisions. I'm not sure how that helps... :confused:

Good question from Kennedy: Why is a corporations religion better than its employees if we're going to go down this road...

"Justice Anthony Kennedy, potentially a key vote in the case, asked Mr. Clement how the court should take into account the religious rights of employees, which may differ from the religious views of their employer. "
 
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Ah, I see unofan has not good point to make, so he merely claims other things are ridiculous and are paid for, so why not this also. Very weak, even by his standards.

Deflect and evade without answering the question and being a passive aggressive wimp at the same time. I expect nothing less from you, Bob.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Doesn't avoid the problem however. All S corporations would be free to use religion to force their beliefs on their employers regarding medical decisions. I'm not sure how that helps... :confused:

Good question from Kennedy: Why is a corporations religion better than its employees if we're going to go down this road...

"Justice Anthony Kennedy, potentially a key vote in the case, asked Mr. Clement how the court should take into account the religious rights of employees, which may differ from the religious views of their employer. "
Simple. The employee isn't being forced to do anything in this situation. The employer is. The employee is free to do whatever they want under any scenario.
 
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