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The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

When we are talking about First Amendment rights, how does this distinction apply to newspapers, radio, television? Certainly you are not suggesting that for-profit media companies lose "freedom of the press" merely by being "for profit"??

I do understand the emotional and intuitive appeal of saying something like what follows, regarding "corporations" and their constitutional rights:
-- "media" companies have one set of rights.
-- churches, temples, mosques, synagogs, religious orders have another set of rights
-- universities, hospitals, museums, libraries, and foundations have another set of rights
-- political parties and political advocacy groups have another set of rights
-- non-media for-profit companies and labor unions have another set of rights


The problem with this line of thought becomes "who determines what those rights are?" It cannot be the government, otherwise we have just opened the door for government censorship. Merely by allowing "media companies" to be defined at all allows for a definition to restrict certain groups from that category, thereby restricting their free speech rights.


Well, then, you might reply: suppose I reluctantly am forced to concede that all corporations must have free speech rights (if not, then we have automatically restricted them, by definition) -- That doesn't necessarily mean that all corporations must necessarily have each and every one of the First Amendment rights. Well, the last sentence is your argument, not mine. How do you go about defining which corporations have which First Amendment rights, which corporations have some First Amendment rights but not other First Amendment rights, and how do you do so without granting the government the power to censor people in some form or fashion?
You conveniently left out another option: the court decides that ALL corporations have freedom of the press, but NO corporations have freedom of religion, etc. There's no reason to assume that the government would need to get into the business of choosing which (individual or class of) corporations have which rights.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

You conveniently left out another option: the court decides that ALL corporations have freedom of the press, but NO corporations have freedom of religion, etc. There's no reason to assume that the government would need to get into the business of choosing which (individual or class of) corporations have which rights.

I doubt you could take freedom of religion away from religious organizations, don't you? Corporate form should have nothing to do with it, it seems.

Besides, for the case at hand, the law already exempts religious organizations from the requirement that they provide birth control to their employees. So you'd like to see a situation in which some corporations can be exempt while others wouldn't be. Doesn't quite fit your paradigm.

Again, the issue is not so much "preventive birth control" as it is abortion. Many churches that are just fine with contraception oppose abortion, which is post-conception infanticide in their eyes.


Another "option" would be to just go ahead and allow government censorship. After all, the only people who would be censored would be annoying fringe element troublemakers. No reasonable person would ever have to fear government oppression, right?
 
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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

I doubt you could take freedom of religion away from religious organizations, don't you? Corporate form should have nothing to do with it, it seems.
I could definitely argue that religious organizations should not have freedom of religion. What does "freedom of religion" even mean for an organization? It's like arguing that a football player should be allowed to swing for the fences. You don't need an organization to be religious - the individuals who are members of the organization are free to exercise their religions, whether they're taking part in an organized event or not. The things that the "organization" actually does are things like paying the light bill, paying the water bill, getting building permits, filing tax exempt status forms, and handling the payroll and benefits of employees. Those are NOT religious activities - they're economic activities, and may be regulated as such.

Besides, for the case at hand, the law already exempts religious organizations from the requirement that they provide birth control to their employees. So you'd like to see a situation in which some corporations can be exempt while others wouldn't be. Doesn't quite fit your paradigm.
Nope. I'd like to see a situation where all corporations have to follow the same labor and tax laws, which is where health care benefits are regulated.

Again, the issue is not so much "preventive birth control" as it is abortion. Many churches that are just fine with contraception oppose abortion, which is post-conception infanticide in their eyes.
The law does not require the church to force its employees to have abortions. The individual employees are free NOT to have abortions if that is religiously important to them, so nobody's civil liberties are being violated. I used this argument before but it wasn't answered: if a minimum wage worker at a church regularly blows his salary on hookers and booze (which the church disagrees with), does that give the church the right to pay the worker less so that the worker won't have the option to spend his money on things the church disagrees with? Of course not. The church is required to provide minimum wage, and the church is/will be required to offer a health plan that covers contraception/abortions. What the individual employees choose to do with those resources at their disposal is up to them.


Another "option" would be to just go ahead and allow government censorship. After all, the only people who would be censored would be annoying fringe element troublemakers. No reasonable person would ever have to fear government oppression, right?
Full-on troll.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Wow. Hadn't looked in here in awhile. Radical views flowing freely as always. Shows where our freedoms are headed in this country.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

I could definitely argue that religious organizations should not have freedom of religion. What does "freedom of religion" even mean for an organization?

Usually you are quite sensible, this time though it's hard to discern what you mean.

The Catholic Church should not have freedom of religion, only Catholics should? So the government can tax the organization and drive it out of business if it doesn't like its views? It can forbid the organization to own a building within which to house religious services? The Church as an organization owns the churches, runs the hospitals and schools, collects and distributes food and clothing. You'd deny freedom of conscience to the organization that does that? So if the Church provides aid to someone the government doesn't like, the government can intervene?

Maybe I don't quite follow.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Wow. Hadn't looked in here in awhile. Radical views flowing freely as always. Shows where our freedoms are headed in this country.[/QUOTE]

Nothing like they were in the golden years not very long ago when women could not vote, children worked in sweatshops, and black people could not ride buses or sit in restaurants with white folks. Or go back further in this country when people were burned at the stake for having the wrong religious convictions. We are learning, admittedly not so well sometimes, from the lessons that are imposed upon us by a changing world. But this vague wistfulness for a golden age in this country when right was right and people were free from oppression is little more than a weak-minded self deception.

In my opinion.

edit: You do not deserve the rudeness that last sentence conveys, Bob--I just get sensitive about the subject.
 
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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Usually you are quite sensible, this time though it's hard to discern what you mean.

The Catholic Church should not have freedom of religion, only Catholics should?
Exactly.
So the government can tax the organization and drive it out of business if it doesn't like its views?
Nope. It's "views" (and expressing them) are protected as freedom of speech.
It can forbid the organization to own a building within which to house religious services?
Only if it treats all similar non-profit organizations similarly, otherwise, this would be an Equal Protection violation - again, no need for the organization to have a religious freedom to arrive at this conclusion.
The Church as an organization owns the churches, runs the hospitals and schools, collects and distributes food and clothing. You'd deny freedom of conscience to the organization that does that?
Organizations don't have "consciences," so yes, I would deny it the freedom of something that doesn't exist.
So if the Church provides aid to someone the government doesn't like, the government can intervene?
If the church provides aid to someone the government doesn't like, the government can definitely intervene. Don't believe me? Try having your church deliver a boat full of medicine and blankets to Cuba - you'll have intervention up the wazoo.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Wow. Hadn't looked in here in awhile. Radical views flowing freely as always. Shows where our freedoms are headed in this country.[/QUOTE]

Nothing like they were in the golden years not very long ago when women could not vote, children worked in sweatshops, and black people could not ride buses or sit in restaurants with white folks. Or go back further in this country when people were burned at the stake for having the wrong religious convictions. We are learning, admittedly not so well sometimes, from the lessons that are imposed upon us by a changing world. But this vague wistfulness for a golden age in this country when right was right and people were free from oppression is little more than a weak-minded self deception.

In my opinion.

edit: You do not deserve the rudeness that last sentence conveys, Bob--I just get sensitive about the subject.
That's why I used the word "headed". We're obviously not there, but the warning signs are becoming more readily apparent. And it's not just a liberal or conservative issue. People on all sides of issues are more and more interested in getting their desired end result, regardless of the means to get there and who gets trampled on. Name one politician in the federal government who deserves to have the term "statesman" attached to them. I can't think of one. And the state of our politicians reflects the state of our people and nation.

“Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population.” Albert Einstein
 
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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

That's why I used the word "headed". We're obviously not there, but the warning signs are becoming more readily apparent. And it's not just a liberal or conservative issue. People on all sides of issues are more and more interested in getting their desired end result, regardless of the means to get there and who gets trampled on. Name one politician in the federal government who deserves to have the term "statesman" attached to them. I can't think of one. And the state of our politicians reflects the state of our people and nation.

“Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population.” Albert Einstein

Valid points. I'm not sure politics are more polarized now. I'm not an historian and haven't been to the Lincoln Library in Springfield, Ill, but others have described evidence showing how absolutely vicious politics was in Lincoln's time, even by today's standards. Pio has probably seen the Lincoln library/museum and could comment. I do not think it was necessarily related to the national dysfunction over the war and the issues leading up to it. Many politicians have killed or been killed in duels, including Andrew Jackson, who killed a man in a duel in 1806, the Burr/Hamilton duel in 1804 in which Alexander Hamilton was killed, and Henry Clay, who was in a duel in 1826 in which nobody was injured.

The point is that politics in this country has always been a contact support, and we tend to be unaware of our own history in that regard.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Valid points. I'm not sure politics are more polarized now. I'm not an historian and haven't been to the Lincoln Library in Springfield, Ill, but others have described evidence showing how absolutely vicious politics was in Lincoln's time, even by today's standards. Pio has probably seen the Lincoln library/museum and could comment. I do not think it was necessarily related to the national dysfunction over the war and the issues leading up to it. Many politicians have killed or been killed in duels, including Andrew Jackson, who killed a man in a duel in 1806, the Burr/Hamilton duel in 1804 in which Alexander Hamilton was killed, and Henry Clay, who was in a duel in 1826 in which nobody was injured.

The point is that politics in this country has always been a contact support, and we tend to be unaware of our own history in that regard.
Certainly our nation has a colorful political history and there was a lot of wild and wooly stuff that went on when our nation was young. When I tend to discuss how politics works, I don't usually compare back that far, as the country and situation were so drastically different, I don't think there's as much value in comparing back that far. But, if you compare today to most of the 20th century, I think it's hard to say how politicians go about things now is anywhere near as good as it was for at least most of the 20th century. But, I guess maybe that's inevitable given the ever widening gulf in beliefs/values/etc. that is found between large blocks of our country.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Valid points. I'm not sure politics are more polarized now. I'm not an historian and haven't been to the Lincoln Library in Springfield, Ill, but others have described evidence showing how absolutely vicious politics was in Lincoln's time, even by today's standards. Pio has probably seen the Lincoln library/museum and could comment. I do not think it was necessarily related to the national dysfunction over the war and the issues leading up to it. Many politicians have killed or been killed in duels, including Andrew Jackson, who killed a man in a duel in 1806, the Burr/Hamilton duel in 1804 in which Alexander Hamilton was killed, and Henry Clay, who was in a duel in 1826 in which nobody was injured.

The point is that politics in this country has always been a contact support, and we tend to be unaware of our own history in that regard.

Politics in this country often have been extremely vitriolic within a limited context. The Adams - Jefferson race in 1800 supposedly had some extremely vicious rhetoric about the candidates.

What seems different to me is that, while the vitriol in the past was, "he is a know-nothing heartless scumbag who cares only about his followers and will sell anyone else out in a minute to advance his own career," there never was an intimation that political disagreement automatically made someone a traitor who deserved government suppression. Government itself, once elected office was achieved, was supposed to remain professional and apolitical: the elections were about who'd be in office, but once they were in office they were then supposed to represent the country's best interest.

Now, there is no separation between politics (which formerly had been limited to the election campaigns) and governing (which now sees blatant short-term political expediency become the most important consideration of the day).

So while I would agree with you that politics are no more polarized than they have been throughout US history, government has now also become extremely polarized only in the past several years, and that is quite disturbing.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

It comes down to perspective. I firmly believe that humans have been wired two different ways since the Neanderthals - that results in the two sides of the political spectrum.

For example, I can't understand how allowing one to own any type of gun they want is an important freedom...while government telling schools what they can and can't teach is not an important freedom.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

It comes down to perspective. I firmly believe that humans have been wired two different ways since the Neanderthals - that results in the two sides of the political spectrum.

For example, I can't understand how allowing one to own any type of gun they want is an important freedom...while government telling schools what they can and can't teach is not an important freedom.
People can't own any type of gun they want, and I don't know many people who say there should be no limitation whatsoever. The disagreement is on where the limitation is.

Sounds good to me to get the feds out of education. As long as something ridiculous isn't done, education is much better handled locally than from the Beltway.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

People can't own any type of gun they want, and I don't know many people who say there should be no limitation whatsoever. The disagreement is on where the limitation is.

Sounds good to me to get the feds out of education. As long as something ridiculous isn't done, education is much better handled locally than from the Beltway.

Marking my calendar. I agree with Bob.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Politics in this country often have been extremely vitriolic within a limited context. The Adams - Jefferson race in 1800 supposedly had some extremely vicious rhetoric about the candidates.

What seems different to me is that, while the vitriol in the past was, "he is a know-nothing heartless scumbag who cares only about his followers and will sell anyone else out in a minute to advance his own career," there never was an intimation that political disagreement automatically made someone a traitor who deserved government suppression. Government itself, once elected office was achieved, was supposed to remain professional and apolitical: the elections were about who'd be in office, but once they were in office they were then supposed to represent the country's best interest.
So, when Preston Brooks beat Charles Sumner with his cane, on the floor of the U.S. Senate, following a Sumner speech on slavery, which category did Preston's actions fall under -- professional or apolitical.

Politics is, was, and always will be one of the dirtiest, most corrupt disciplines. If I had a choice of living in a community of nothing but pedophiles, or nothing but politicians, I'd take the pedos each and every time.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

People can't own any type of gun they want, and I don't know many people who say there should be no limitation whatsoever. The disagreement is on where the limitation is.

While not everyone, many on that side of the spectrum don't believe in practical limits. No serious limits on rates of fire, on ammo, on acquisition. For a hunter, these should be non-issues. We can fulfill the second amendment without increasing the danger to society...but we allow extremists to hold society hostage.

Sounds good to me to get the feds out of education. As long as something ridiculous isn't done, education is much better handled locally than from the Beltway.

Unfortunately it seems to happen. Book rewrites in Texas and cultural studies in Arizona.

This is a large reason I do not understand the mental make up of one side of the political spectrum.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

While not everyone, many on that side of the spectrum don't believe in practical limits. No serious limits on rates of fire, on ammo, on acquisition. For a hunter, these should be non-issues. We can fulfill the second amendment without increasing the danger to society...but we allow extremists to hold society hostage.



Unfortunately it seems to happen. Book rewrites in Texas and cultural studies in Arizona.

This is a large reason I do not understand the mental make up of one side of the political spectrum.

We live in a United States where Mitch McConnell and John Cornyn are not considered "conservative" enough for their Constituents. Just be thankful like I am that you don't live in Texas, Arizona, Kentucky, or Mississippi or any of those other psychotic States.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

We live in a United States where Mitch McConnell and John Cornyn are not considered "conservative" enough for their Constituents. Just be thankful like I am that you don't live in Texas, Arizona, Kentucky, or Mississippi or any of those other psychotic States.

Cornyn is yet to be proven. Just because a one-term Congressman (who has a bunch of question marks) filed at the last minute doesn't necessarily mean he'll win.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

We live in a United States where Mitch McConnell and John Cornyn are not considered "conservative" enough for their Constituents. Just be thankful like I am that you don't live in Texas, Arizona, Kentucky, or Mississippi or any of those other psychotic States.

I saw a tweet the other day complaining about "liberals like John Cornyn" and I was like, 'Since when is John Cornyn a liberal?' It's going to give real liberals a bad name :p
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Bob Gray;5833521Certainly our nation has a colorful political history and there was a lot of wild and wooly stuff that went on when our nation was young. When I tend to discuss how politics works said:
I share some of those feelings, Bob, but when were the better times? Certainly not before 1920, because half our citizens had no guarantee of a voice in government, at least nation-wide prior to that time. In the 40s when our government, with the stamp of approval from the SCOTUS, imprisoned its own citizens of a specific national origin out of a general fear and without individualized suspicion? The 50s when innocent citizens' lives were ruined by activities originating on the floor of the House of Representatives and many more were frightened into silence and fear? The 60s when a state governor refused federal mandate allowing citizens access to public education, a president, Senator and civil rights leader, all of a similar political persuasion, were assassinated (not a conspiracy theorist here, just saying), and cities were burning as a result of race riots? The 70s, when our president organized and/or sanctioned an illegal break-in and search of the opposing party's headquarters? During nearly all those decades when the head of the FBI gathered information, using government means, to be used against citizens and political office-holders for personal power leverage?

When, exactly, was the guilded age and how narrow a time window are you talking about? These are certainly frustrating times, and I share your concern about that, but someone will have to identify a period in time when things were much better from a personal freedom standpoint.
 
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