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The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Progressive tax DOES treat everyone equally.

Agree in theory, disagree in practice, which is why most tax reform proposals [quite rightly in my opinion] are focused less on rates and more on all the goody-bags politicians insert for their favored constituencies. The tax code is riddled chock-a-block with all sorts of narrowly-targeted deductions, credits, exemptions, etc. etc. which is why high tax rates are never actually paid.

In other words, progressive tax rates, in isolation, do treat everyone equally; however, the definition of taxable income does not. Some people benefit more than others, generally (though not always) based NOT on economic reasons but based on reasons of who they know and who they can buy off. (I always cite Chuch Schumer championing carried interest because so much of NY State revenue depends on hedge fund people. He doesn't want changes in the US tax code to cause all hedge funds to relocate to Bermuda, and as long as he can keep carried interest taxed at 15% the hedge funds will stay in NY. Increase their tax rate to 45% and they'll all start leaving left and right and NY State loses over half of its state income tax revenue).

it's also a good (cynical) explanation of why apparently high tax rates remain: it's a way for politicians to <strike>extort</strike> "solicit" campaign contributions from lobbyists so that they can insert all those special provisions. Get rid of special provisions in exchange for lower rates, reduce the ability to raise campaign funds.

I can't remember all the details, sometime in I think the 1980s there was a bill regarding the Generation -Skipping transfer tax, and some Congressperson from CA inserted a few technical provisions that on the surface seemed innocuous enough, about grandparents and grandchildrens and separate trusts. It turns out that this particular section was of tremendous financial benefit to the Gallo family, whose founder / brothers were getting on in years and who wanted to keep their winery intact in a series of family trusts and family partnerships.

So one really rich, well-connected family with a clever lawyer was able to get a special provision inserted into the law to benefit them.

To the Confiscator-in-Chief, the economics don't matter: to him it is all symbolic. All rich people (other than himself, naturally :rolleyes:) should be punished merely for the fact of being rich. It's a moral crusade that makes no logical sense. If you were logical, you would be concerned about revenues, rates would be secondary. Lower rates with fewer deductions are clearly and unequivocably much better for the economy than higher rates with oodles of credits, exemptions, carve-outs, and the like.
 
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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

I'm sure you could fill thousands of threads with equal protection analysis, and of course the equal protection argument is the one that has been used most by those opposed to a progressive taxation structure since income taxes were first imposed.

Rightly or wrongly I think the courts have taken the position that if the legislative bodies say that a person who earns $250,000 has to pay "x" for taxes, so long as that applies to everyone making $250,000 (and not, for instance, just african americans) then the equal protection requirements are met. We're not differentiating based upon who we are as people, but instead, applying the tax based upon income. Men, women, blacks, whites, anyone making $250,000 is treated equally.

And I agree with this. I am pointing out that this is the same reason that same sex marriage doesn't fall under equal protection since they all able to marry somone of the opposite sex. If this paradigm changes due to a ruling saying at everyone in total has to be treated equally then progressive taxes would have to be looked at since people would then be considered as being treated unequally.
 
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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

And I agree with this. I am pointing out that this is the same reason that same sex marriage doesn't fall under equal protection since they all able to marry somone of the opposite sex. If this paradigm changes due to a ruling saying at everyone in total has to be treated equally then progressive taxes would have to be looked at since people would then be considered as being treated unequally.
No. That would be like saying everyone has to pay the exact same amount of property taxes regardless of the value of their home. We are differentiating on the basis of income, home values, the cost of your car, etc..., and not you as a person.

The reason same sex marriage restrictions have already been found by lower federal courts to violate EP, and why I think ultimately the Supremes will go that way is that if the country is going to let me get married to whom I choose, you need to be permitted to marry who you choose, whether they be black, white, man, woman. The only exceptions where there is an overriding state's interest in preventing it, such as marrying a three year old.

The government has yet to be able to identify an overriding reason for banning gay marriage, other than it happens to creep out a few people. Every argument used, be it procreation or whatever, has been rejected as not good enough. The exact same thing that happened with interracial marriage bans. One of the questions the government attorneys get asked, which always stumps them, is why, if this has been such an overriding government concern, has the government just now (236 years into our nation's history) seen fit to act on it legislatively? If it was so important, shouldn't have been in there from day one? I think that's an excellent question and I've yet to hear a solid response from supporters of the bans.

The Supremes may not do it with this decision, but sooner or later it will happen.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

The only exceptions where there is an overriding state's interest in preventing it, such as marrying a three year old.

With this sentence, you pretty much made a justification for why states would be allowed to make certain bans. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

...

The government has yet to be able to identify an overriding reason for banning gay marriage, other than it happens to creep out a few people. Every argument used, be it procreation or whatever, has been rejected as not good enough. The exact same thing that happened with interracial marriage bans. One of the questions the government attorneys get asked, which always stumps them, is why, if this has been such an overriding government concern, has the government just now (236 years into our nation's history) seen fit to act on it legislatively? If it was so important, shouldn't have been in there from day one? I think that's an excellent question and I've yet to hear a solid response from supporters of the bans...
Except that even 40 (30) years ago NO ONE in this country, or the world, could conceive of homosexual marriage. I think the word was immoral.

I agree, standards have changed. Sometimes not for the better.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Except that even 40 (30) years ago NO ONE in this country, or the world, could conceive of homosexual marriage. I think the word was immoral.

I agree, standards have changed. Sometimes not for the better.
You are assuming standards still exist.
 
With this sentence, you pretty much made a justification for why states would be allowed to make certain bans. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

The slippery slope might allow polygomy at some point. Pedophilia and beastiality, never. There's a huge difference, namely the ability to consent. Three adults could conceivably consent. A child or a sheep could not.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

With this sentence, you pretty much made a justification for why states would be allowed to make certain bans. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.
So what is the overriding state's interest in banning gay marriage?
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

So what is the overriding state's interest in banning gay marriage?

And you're asking this of someone who lives in a state where it's legal? Your question is better posed towards California, where Prop 8 was passed.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

And you're asking this of someone who lives in a state where it's legal? Your question is better posed towards California, where Prop 8 was passed.
No, I'm just curious. Your post suggested that states will be able to ban gay marriage, much like they might marriage to a small child. I was just curious if you had in mind what the state would offer as it's overriding state interest. The whole procreation argument has been tried unsuccessfully, since obviously many hetero marriages can't/don't result in children. It's hard for the state to argue "well the bible says it's wrong". That's always been the conundrum for those who have to defend such bans.

Let's be candid. The idea that homosexuality is wrong, immoral, etc..., stems entirely from religious teachings. It's not just something we're born with. You don't find it in the Magna Carta. It is, first and foremost, religious doctrine.

And that's the problem. As the centuries have passed and more people are less tolerant of "toeing the line" with respect to religious teachings, people have started to ask why is it immoral? Why is it so wrong? And when those who choose to continue support for those teachings try to codify it in what should be law free from religious doctrine, it becomes problematic, because most of us get a little leary of crossing that line.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

No, I'm just curious. Your post suggested that states will be able to ban gay marriage, much like they might marriage to a small child. I was just curious if you had in mind what the state would offer as it's overriding state interest. The whole procreation argument has been tried unsuccessfully, since obviously many hetero marriages can't/don't result in children. It's hard for the state to argue "well the bible says it's wrong". That's always been the conundrum for those who have to defend such bans.

Let's be candid. The idea that homosexuality is wrong, immoral, etc..., stems entirely from religious teachings. It's not just something we're born with. You don't find it in the Magna Carta. It is, first and foremost, religious doctrine.

And that's the problem. As the centuries have passed and more people are less tolerant of "toeing the line" with respect to religious teachings, people have started to ask why is it immoral? Why is it so wrong? And when those who choose to continue support for those teachings try to codify it in what should be law free from religious doctrine, it becomes problematic, because most of us get a little leary of crossing that line.

Marriage also has a religious basis. Whether it was added to religion by government or add to government by religion, I don't know, but for the government to recognise marriage is to recognise religion. This is why I had suggested, and joecct had recommended, that we take marriage out of the equation. Everyone becomes a single person according to government standards, define dependents as necessary, and then nominate whomever you wish to nominate for next of kin, beneficiary, executor, whatever sorts of other things along those lines there are. If you still want to get married through a religious setting, that's your prerogative. By doing this, you've simplified the tax code, you've saved states and municipalities money when it comes to court settings (no more justices for marriage or divorce), and you allow for people to define whomever they wish for those previously described benefits.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Marriage also has a religious basis. Whether it was added to religion by government or add to government by religion, I don't know, but for the government to recognise marriage is to recognise religion. This is why I had suggested, and joecct had recommended, that we take marriage out of the equation. Everyone becomes a single person according to government standards, define dependents as necessary, and then nominate whomever you wish to nominate for next of kin, beneficiary, executor, whatever sorts of other things along those lines there are. If you still want to get married through a religious setting, that's your prerogative. By doing this, you've simplified the tax code, you've saved states and municipalities money when it comes to court settings (no more justices for marriage or divorce), and you allow for people to define whomever they wish for those previously described benefits.
I don't have any problem at all doing that. I agree 100%.
 
I don't have any problem at all doing that. I agree 100%.

In theory, I don't either. In the real world, there are times it can be nice to have a gov't sanctioned relstionship. People can argue over powers of attorney, contracts, and the like. Being able to provide an official marriage license cuts through a lot of red tape. One of the reasons gay people want marriage is because families have been able to occasionally over ride their partner's wishes on things like medical care, even when there is a legsl document present.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

No, I'm just curious. Your post suggested that states will be able to ban gay marriage, much like they might marriage to a small child. I was just curious if you had in mind what the state would offer as it's overriding state interest. The whole procreation argument has been tried unsuccessfully, since obviously many hetero marriages can't/don't result in children. It's hard for the state to argue "well the bible says it's wrong". That's always been the conundrum for those who have to defend such bans.

Let's be candid. The idea that homosexuality is wrong, immoral, etc..., stems entirely from religious teachings. It's not just something we're born with. You don't find it in the Magna Carta. It is, first and foremost, religious doctrine.

And that's the problem. As the centuries have passed and more people are less tolerant of "toeing the line" with respect to religious teachings, people have started to ask why is it immoral? Why is it so wrong? And when those who choose to continue support for those teachings try to codify it in what should be law free from religious doctrine, it becomes problematic, because most of us get a little leary of crossing that line.
Except those who continue to support such teachings aren't the activists trying to push their view of things onto others and change everything. That mantle falls to the other side. Anymore, you speak out against such things, and you're demonized, may lose your job, etc. Freedom of speech is a dying thing in this country.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Except those who continue to support such teachings aren't the activists trying to push their view of things onto others and change everything. That mantle falls to the other side. Anymore, you speak out against such things, and you're demonized, may lose your job, etc. Freedom of speech is a dying thing in this country.
I don't disagree that you speak your mind at your own risk. Hence my signature.

But the battle over gay marriage is being aggressively pushed by both sides, whether it's a push to legalize it, or a push to pass a consitutional amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

In theory, I don't either. In the real world, there are times it can be nice to have a gov't sanctioned relstionship. People can argue over powers of attorney, contracts, and the like. Being able to provide an official marriage license cuts through a lot of red tape. One of the reasons gay people want marriage is because families have been able to occasionally over ride their partner's wishes on things like medical care, even when there is a legsl document present.

Most states have defined a legal age of consent, though. Create the legislation so once that has been reached, you write your testament on who you want for power of attorney, contracts, and the like. No ifs, ands, or buts. The only thing that could possibly create some confusion on this matter is what happens when you get to the age of consent and you have yet to file this testament.
 
Most states have defined a legal age of consent, though. Create the legislation so once that has been reached, you write your testament on who you want for power of attorney, contracts, and the like. No ifs, ands, or buts. The only thing that could possibly create some confusion on this matter is what happens when you get to the age of consent and you have yet to file this testament.

That's how it works in theory even now. But if it were just that easy, we wouldn't need things like probate court. Again, an official marriage license cuts through a lot of red tape and cuts off many such documentation challenges. There are plenty of non-religious reasons to keep secular marriages or their equivalent.
 
Except those who continue to support such teachings aren't the activists trying to push their view of things onto others and change everything. That mantle falls to the other side. Anymore, you speak out against such things, and you're demonized, may lose your job, etc. Freedom of speech is a dying thing in this country.

They might not be trying to change things, but they are activists, Bob. Injecting millions into political battles is almost the definition of being politically active.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

The reason same sex marriage restrictions have already been found by lower federal courts to violate EP, and why I think ultimately the Supremes will go that way is that if the country is going to let me get married to whom I choose, you need to be permitted to marry who you choose, whether they be black, white, man, woman. The only exceptions where there is an overriding state's interest in preventing it, such as marrying a three year old.

I will have to go back and re-read the amendment, but my recollection is that it specifically states the cases where discrimination cannot take place and sexul preference isn't one of them. This is why I believe that this should be a legislative solution. I personally don't care one way or the other on gay marriage. I just firmly believe that we should not be looking to the courts to create social change (especially on something that is a state issue).
 
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