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The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

I'm really not sure what FreshFish doesn't get

We agree that discrimination occurs in one particular area ... yet why is an entity that wasn't even involved in the discriminatory acts in the first place being held accountable for the outcome anyway?

Is that really so hard to understand? :confused:


To use an analogy, Texas used to be a litigator's heaven. A man was drunk and drove his car off the road, going straight when the road itself curved. He sued the engineering firm that designed the road for not banking the curve high enough, and won a judgment against them.

So somehow the engineering firm was held accountable for the man's drunk driving accident!
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Have you ever tried on firefighter gear?

Had you ever done so, you would know from first-hand experience that a considerable amount of physical strength is indeed a necessary job requirement. Perhaps using a bench press isn't the best metric. How about, anyone who wants to be a firefighter has to wear full firefighter gear and run up a three-story stairway in less than 90 seconds, say. It seems to me that many men as well as most women would be disqualified; and many current firefighters will come to be disqualified as they grow older.

I appreciate the perspective of one group of people affected. At the same time, other people also are affected. Suppose your child is in a burning building and needs to be rescued. A certain amount of physical strength and stamina is undoubtedly required both to be able to move around carrying all that gear while also lugging the weight of a frightened child. How would you feel if your child burned to death because the firefighter sent to rescue him/her was physically unable to move the child out of harms way?

It's a complex issue with many sides. I don't think one can automatically assume that just because an outcome appears to be "disparate" that it is automatically the result of invidious discrimination. Certain jobs have demanding requirements for very good reasons.

I would not want someone designing an airplane without an advanced degree in aviation engineering. Unofan posted earlier that having specialty requirements for specialty positions is not automatically discriminatory against people who lack those qualifications (in response to a query about the scarcity of people under 6'1" playing in the NBA).
You could have saved yourself some typing if you had read the bolded part of my post.

I'd be curious to see what percentage of discrimination cases are "disparate impact" cases, versus those that are the more traditional "disparate treatment" cases. I'm going to just guess that a very small percentage are the former, and well over 90% are the latter.

Don't underestimate the need for disparate impact cases. Discrimination still occurs in the workplace, it's just a lot more subtle than it was 40-50 years ago. The days of a supervisor saying "we don't hire n*****s" has long since passed, but only a very naive person believes there is no ongoing discrimination in this country on the basis of race or sex.

It's very difficult to prove a disparate impact case. However, I suggest you look at it from the side of the person affected. Let's assume you're a woman who would really like to be a firefighter. But the City declares that only people who can bench press 150 lbs. 15+ reps are qualified, even though it's a demonstrable fact that no such physical requirement is a necessary job requirement.

There are a lot of very subtle ways employers can find to try to exclude undesirable candidates, candidates whose undesirable condition is not their talent, but their age, sex, or race.
I think that's our point. If you have a very good reason for the "job requirement", then you won't be found liable for disparate treatment discrimination. But if you require that all your firefighters grow a full head of facial hair before getting hired, you're either going to end up with a bunch of female firefighters from Maine, or you're going to get successfully sued. :p
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

We agree that discrimination occurs in one particular area ... yet why is an entity that wasn't even involved in the discriminatory acts in the first place being held accountable for the outcome anyway?

Is that really so hard to understand? :confused:


To use an analogy, Texas used to be a litigator's heaven. A man was drunk and drove his car off the road, going straight when the road itself curved. He sued the engineering firm that designed the road for not banking the curve high enough, and won a judgment against them.

So somehow the engineering firm was held accountable for the man's drunk driving accident!

First, I don't think these two situations are analogous at all.

Second, shouldn't the engineering firm be liable to some extent for not banking the curve high enough (assuming they were supposed to)? Why should the engineering firm be able to pass off their wrongdoing on others? Should they just get a free pass?

The engineering firm wasn't held accountable for the man driving drunk. They were held accountable for poorly designing a highway.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

If FF is excited about the housing disparate impact cases, he's really going to be excited about the next wave coming ashore -- the illegal, disparate impact of a general practice of refusing to hire convicted criminals.

That's the EEOC's next focus, and employers are kidding themselves if they think they can ignore that problem.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

First, I don't think these two situations are analogous at all.

Second, shouldn't the engineering firm be liable to some extent for not banking the curve high enough (assuming they were supposed to)? Why should the engineering firm be able to pass off their wrongdoing on others? Should they just get a free pass?

The engineering firm wasn't held accountable for the man driving drunk. They were held accountable for poorly designing a highway.
It's been a while since the story was in the papers, but, as I recall, the engineering firm did have the turn banked already. Like you said, did they have it banked enough? The drunk driver - or his counsel - argued that it should have been banked more than it was. Up to that point in time there had been no other incidences at that turn to have ever brought its design or construction into question.
 
If FF is excited about the housing disparate impact cases, he's really going to be excited about the next wave coming ashore -- the illegal, disparate impact of a general practice of refusing to hire convicted criminals.

That's the EEOC's next focus, and employers are kidding themselves if they think they can ignore that problem.

Yeah, that and gender identity bathroom cases.
 
We agree that discrimination occurs in one particular area ... yet why is an entity that wasn't even involved in the discriminatory acts in the first place being held accountable for the outcome anyway?

Is that really so hard to understand? :confused:

Because not everyone agrees with your initial premise that the bank didn't discriminate, apparently. Surely you'd expect us to want more than your word before we agree with that?

Are you talking from personal experience here or is it a case you read about? Care to give us a citation so we can read the full opinions?
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Droll, that a few people are still whining that "corporations don't have First Amendment rights" when the ACLU is a corporation, and just about every newspaper, magazine, television network, and radio station is owned and operated by a corporation.

Corporate-owned newspapers don't have First Amendment rights?? :eek:


and the response to that question is even worse: it basically comes down to having the government license which corporations would have First Amendment rights, and which wouldn't. um, doesn't that completely undercut the First Amendment to have the government make that decision??
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

If FF is excited about the housing disparate impact cases, he's really going to be excited about the next wave coming ashore -- the illegal, disparate impact of a general practice of refusing to hire convicted criminals.

That's the EEOC's next focus, and employers are kidding themselves if they think they can ignore that problem.


Thanks, this is a perfect example of what I was trying to get at. One of my daydreams when I win a nine-figure Powerball jackpot is to hire gang leaders to run entrepreneurial businesses, since they have already demonstrated their leadership qualities and business acumen. to demonstrate that, when given the right opportunity, they can be even more successful in a "legitimate" business enterprise.

It's also an example of how the parties who perform the actual discrimination are not the parties who are being sued. Our recidivism rates are horrendous. Our prisons serve primarily to teach people how to be better criminals. The discrimination occurs in the way prisoners are treated while in prison, being warehoused, with little formal training to live a better life outside, with no formal psychological or moral or ethical counseling on how to live a non-criminal, socially useful life, with little formal training in skills that an employer might find useful once the prisoners are released.

Given recidivist statistics, is it really "discriminatory" for a business looking for a comptroller not to hire someone who had been convicted of fraud or embezzlement, absent any evidence that they have changed their ways? A fundamental rule of human behavior is "the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior" (unless there is some intervention to change the habits and attitudes that underly the past behavior).
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Thanks, this is a perfect example of what I was trying to get at. One of my daydreams when I win a nine-figure Powerball jackpot is to hire gang leaders to run entrepreneurial businesses, since they have already demonstrated their leadership qualities and business acumen. to demonstrate that, when given the right opportunity, they can be even more successful in a "legitimate" business enterprise

Sort of like Aaron Hernandez?
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

Thanks, this is a perfect example of what I was trying to get at. One of my daydreams when I win a nine-figure Powerball jackpot is to hire gang leaders to run entrepreneurial businesses, since they have already demonstrated their leadership qualities and business acumen. to demonstrate that, when given the right opportunity, they can be even more successful in a "legitimate" business enterprise.

It's also an example of how the parties who perform the actual discrimination are not the parties who are being sued. Our recidivism rates are horrendous. Our prisons serve primarily to teach people how to be better criminals. The discrimination occurs in the way prisoners are treated while in prison, being warehoused, with little formal training to live a better life outside, with no formal psychological or moral or ethical counseling on how to live a non-criminal, socially useful life, with little formal training in skills that an employer might find useful once the prisoners are released.

Given recidivist statistics, is it really "discriminatory" for a business looking for a comptroller not to hire someone who had been convicted of fraud or embezzlement, absent any evidence that they have changed their ways? A fundamental rule of human behavior is "the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior" (unless there is some intervention to change the habits and attitudes that underly the past behavior).
While you express a lot of dislike for disparate impact discrimination claims, I really don't think you understand them.

You keep saying that the people getting sued are not the same people who are doing the discrimination. That's simply not true. If I am an employer, and I adopt an employment policy/hiring policy, that has no relationship at all to the job being offered, and if that policy has the effect of eliminating substantial portions of one race, or sex or religious preference of the candidate field, that's discrimination, and by explicitly adopting or implementing that policy, I the employer have committed the discrimination. No one is forcing me to adopt such a policy.

Your comptroller example further demonstrates your lack of understanding. There is literally no chance at all that the employer in your example would ever be sued. What the EEOC says is that a blanket policy or practice of rejecting anyone who has ever been convicted of a crime, without considering the age of the crime, the age of the perpetrator when it occurred, the nature of the crime, and any relationship between the nature of the crime and the type of job being offered, has committed discrimination.

Thus, your employer would be able to clearly claim he or she compared the nature of the crime with the job and see a direct reason why you shouldn't hire a thief for the position.

Here's what the EEOC is trying to eliminate. Let's say a 19 year old is convicted of, and does prison time for criminal vehicular homicide. While joyriding with his friends he attempts to take a curve at 110 mph, crashes, and kills one of his passengers.

20 years later, after he's been out of prison for 15+ years, he applies for a job as a cashier at WalMart. No driving involved. Yet WalMart has a blanket policy.

To me, what's interesting about these claims is the fact that criminals are not a protected class. However, the statistics show that African Americans are convicted at a substantially higher rate than whites. Thus, the EEOC takes the position that blanket rejections on the basis of prior criminal convictions is discrimination, through disparate impact on the African American race.

But what if in my example the 19 year old was white?

This is what I don't think the EEOC has sorted out yet, and what I think is going to lead to all sorts of interesting litigation. I suspect in my example the 19 year old would be out of luck, but the EEOC's claim against WalMart would survive.
 
Given recidivist statistics, is it really "discriminatory" for a business looking for a comptroller not to hire someone who had been convicted of fraud or embezzlement, absent any evidence that they have changed their ways? A fundamental rule of human behavior is "the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior" (unless there is some intervention to change the habits and attitudes that underly the past behavior).

No, but replace embezzlement or fraud with possession of pot 20 years prior, and it's not nearly as clear cut.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

You keep saying that the people getting sued are not the same people who are doing the discrimination.

I'm not making a blanket statement saying that is ALWAYS the case, I thought I was being pretty clear that from time to time it is quite obviously the case. Not always. Sometimes. and far less in hiring and far more often when it comes to lending.

disparate impact only shows that something happened somewhere. necessary but certainly not sufficient. you need more than disparate impact alone to prove liability. and the Supremes will formally codify that in June 2014, unless one of the Sensible Five has to be replaced before then.
 
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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

If FF is excited about the housing disparate impact cases, he's really going to be excited about the next wave coming ashore -- the illegal, disparate impact of a general practice of refusing to hire convicted criminals.

That's the EEOC's next focus, and employers are kidding themselves if they think they can ignore that problem.

What about pedophiles? Can a person who runs a children's toy store refuse to hire a convicted pedophile?

What about a day care center? Can day care centers refuse to hire convicted pedophiles? and if no, who is going to bear the liability when parents start to sue when their children get molested?

This could get really, really ugly if they don't think this all the way through first. :eek:


You keep saying that the employers in these examples will have a "reasonable" chance of winning in court. Have you no concept of how much trouble and bother there is in defending against these claims in court in the first place? This is a prime example of why the government should be required to reimburse the plaintiff for its court costs plus interest when it loses. Then perhaps they'd only act when there is bona fide discrimination, the kind we both deplore.

It feels like I'm talking about a matter of degree and you and Unofun are pulling this "all or none" nonsense that makes reasonable dialog considerably more difficult. What good is nuance and moderation in a discussion if everything is going to be exaggerated and distorted beyond the point of recognition as soon as someone gets mildly uncomfortable?
 
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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

What about pedophiles? Can a person who runs a children's toy store refuse to hire a convicted pedophile?

What about a day care center? Can day care centers refuse to hire convicted pedophiles? and if no, who is going to bear the liability when parents start to sue when their children get molested?

This could get really, really ugly if they don't think this all the way through first. :eek:


You keep saying that the employers in these examples will have a "reasonable" chance of winning in court. Have you no concept of how much trouble and bother there is in defending against these claims in court in the first place? This is a prime example of why the government should be required to reimburse the plaintiff for its court costs plus interest when it loses. Then perhaps they'd only act when there is bona fide discrimination, the kind we both deplore.

It feels like I'm talking about a matter of degree and you and Unofun are pulling this "all or none" nonsense that makes reasonable dialog considerably more difficult. What good is nuance and moderation in a discussion if everything is going to be exaggerated and distorted beyond the point of recognition as soon as someone gets mildly uncomfortable?
talking nuance with unofan is like talking about what a great guy Norm Green was for the Minnesota North Stars fans
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

I'm not making a blanket statement saying that is ALWAYS the case, I thought I was being pretty clear that from time to time it is quite obviously the case.

Yeah, no you weren't.

yet why is an entity that wasn't even involved in the discriminatory acts in the first place being held accountable for the outcome anyway?
It's also an example of how the parties who perform the actual discrimination are not the parties who are being sued.

Those sound exactly like blanket statements to me.

the Supremes will formally codify that in June 2014, unless one of the Sensible Five has to be replaced before then.

The Supremes will determine whether the Fair Housing Act codified or failed to codify disparate impact claims as cognizable under that specific statute. It will say no such thing on the validity of disparate impact claims as a whole.

Justice Scalia, just two years ago and writing for a unanimous court (with respect to this part of the opinion), stated that, "Title VII, for example, can be violated in many ways—by intentional discrimination, or by hiring and promotion criteria that result in disparate impact, and by the use of these practices on the part of many different superiors in a single company." Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. v. Dukes, 131 S.Ct. 2541, 2552 (2011).

Disparate impact claims are not going anywhere as a category.
 
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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

This is a prime example of why the government should be required to reimburse the plaintiff for its court costs plus interest when it loses.
Wow, we're supposed to take legal advice from someone who doesn't know what a plaintiff is?

It feels like I'm talking about a matter of degree and you and Unofun are pulling this "all or none" nonsense that makes reasonable dialog considerably more difficult.

Bullshiat. You're talking about some specific case in which you clearly have a personal stake, or you would not be so adamant about it. Yet when asked to provide details to allow for a more thorough response, you don't. When asked to concede that some employers and lenders discriminate, you evade. When told that employers are allowed legitimate business reasons as a defense, you act like we're making that part up. You're not playing the moderate middle here, you're staking out a position and then claiming the martyr when told that others could have differing opinions.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

What about pedophiles? Can a person who runs a children's toy store refuse to hire a convicted pedophile?

What about a day care center? Can day care centers refuse to hire convicted pedophiles? and if no, who is going to bear the liability when parents start to sue when their children get molested?

This could get really, really ugly if they don't think this all the way through first. :eek:


You keep saying that the employers in these examples will have a "reasonable" chance of winning in court. Have you no concept of how much trouble and bother there is in defending against these claims in court in the first place? This is a prime example of why the government should be required to reimburse the plaintiff for its court costs plus interest when it loses. Then perhaps they'd only act when there is bona fide discrimination, the kind we both deplore.

It feels like I'm talking about a matter of degree and you and Unofun are pulling this "all or none" nonsense that makes reasonable dialog considerably more difficult. What good is nuance and moderation in a discussion if everything is going to be exaggerated and distorted beyond the point of recognition as soon as someone gets mildly uncomfortable?
Again, I really don't think you are reading what I write.

An employer will not be sued for refusing to hire an embezzler for a comptroller position, and a daycare will not be sued for refusing to hire a pedo for one of it's workers.

The funny thing is, you're doing kind of the analysis that the EEOC only asks employers to do, instead of imposing a blanket ban on the hiring of all convicts. They just insist that you look at the nature of the crime, compare it to the nature of the job, mix in some things like how long ago it happened and how old the perp was when it occurred, and make a rational decision.

Unfortunately, many employers find it much easier to just ask the question, "have you ever been convicted of a crime?" and then toss in the garbage all applications checked "yes." If you do that as an employer, the EEOC will be coming after you.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

BTW, color me shocked that in an 8-1 decision yesterday in favor of a criminal defendant in a sentencing matter, Justice Alito was the lone dissenter in favor of the government. He really is an assistant prosecutor up there.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS IV: Gays, Guns, and Immigrants, OH MY!

BTW, color me shocked that in an 8-1 decision yesterday in favor of a criminal defendant in a sentencing matter, Justice Alito was the lone dissenter in favor of the government. He really is an assistant prosecutor up there.
What's a good site for getting recaps of rulings? Of the news sites that I visit, none of them had anything on the ruling released yesterday.
 
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