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The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

His point was, Congress has created this problem for itself. Can they then come back and say, "My god, look at this problem! Give us the power to fix it."?

Kennedy asked something similar, "Can you create commerce in order to regulate it?"

If his point is that congress created society's unwillingness to let people die when they come to the ER, it's a really bad point.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

I liked Scalia's rebuttal when the Solicitor General said people received care at ER's because of "societal norms to which we've obligated ourselves"

Scalia's response: Don't obligate yourselves

Translation: Doctors should let people die rather than treating them.

I also like that Scalia was excluding himself from society. :D

You might not like it, but it makes sense. They're trying to legislate because "that's the way it's always been".
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

Yeah, not quite.

I support ending subsidies, loopholes, tax breaks, etc. across the board. You aren't seriously suggesting that's Obama's position are you? He loves them long time. Just not for "big oil".

So here's the GOP's chance to prove its against government interference in business while placing the debt as the priority all with no strings...and it didn't. Anything else is just excuses...
 
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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

So here's the GOP's chance to prove its against government interference in business while placing the debt as the priority all with no strings...and it didn't. Anything else is just excuses...

Then you'd have to get rid of them for all businesses. There is no way it would hold up in court. You can't just single out a specific industry and say that they don't get the same deductions that everyone else gets just because you don't like them.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

I find it interesting that nobody that leans left here has come up with where the limit of gov't power should be yet.

To my mind, if the individual mandate is held up then there is no limit to gov't power anymore and the constitution is now worthless. Regardless I'm very curious to read the opinion from the democrat nominated (is that a better term) justices to see how they think congress gets that power from.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

How did this become Defense of Marriage?

What is it with Cornell grads trying to assume my words on another tangent? First French Rage, now you... is LynahFan next? :eek:

I was referring to Antonin Scalia's response of "Don't obligate yourselves". Placing all of the artificial limits by means of habit is what's causing these issues.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

I find it interesting that nobody that leans left here has come up with where the limit of gov't power should be yet.

To my mind, if the individual mandate is held up then there is no limit to gov't power anymore and the constitution is now worthless. Regardless I'm very curious to read the opinion from the democrat nominated (is that a better term) justices to see how they think congress gets that power from.

That's because they don't want a limit in government power. They want mommy/daddy government to do everything for them.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

His point was, Congress has created this problem for itself. Can they then come back and say, "My god, look at this problem! Give us the power to fix it."?

Kennedy asked something similar, "Can you create commerce in order to regulate it?"

Congress didn't legislate it. That's why the SG explained that they are "societal norms." Congress didn't say, "We have a crisis where poor people go to the ER, are refused care and die." It's the other way around. People who don't have the economic means go to the ER and receive care. The cost is then spread out to everyone. The Congress is responding to the morality in society. We, as a society, are not willing to stomach people being turned away by the hospital because they can't pay for care. If someone has a heart attack, the first paramedics on the scene do not go through the victim's wallet to look for proof of insurance before putting them in the ambulance. Maybe in Scalia's view they should.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

I liked Scalia's rebuttal when the Solicitor General said people received care at ER's because of "societal norms to which we've obligated ourselves"

Scalia's response: Don't obligate yourselves

Translation: Doctors should let people die rather than treating them.

I also like that Scalia was excluding himself from society. :D
The solicitor general is an idiot. People receive care at hospitals because the hospitals are legally required to treat them. Congress may have chosen to pass COBRA because of societal norms, but whatever the reason, it is now the law of the land.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

Isn't the market for pretty much anything an interstate one these days?

Based on the feds using interstate commerce to justify raiding your pot garden grown for personal use in a state that doesn't forbid personal use, yes.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

I find it interesting that nobody that leans left here has come up with where the limit of gov't power should be yet.

To my mind, if the individual mandate is held up then there is no limit to gov't power anymore and the constitution is now worthless. Regardless I'm very curious to read the opinion from the democrat nominated (is that a better term) justices to see how they think congress gets that power from.

Conscription wasn't a strictly enumerated power.

So there already was no limit to government power, and the constitution was already worthless.

Since Vietnam, it's just been anarchy.

/hyperbole

Seriously, though, I don't question that a constitutional argument can be made against the mandate. I do question whether the real issue is constitutionalism, but maybe that's another thread.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

This seems like an exercise purely in semantics...

Interesting, you use the word "purely" to dismiss the observation out of hand without responding at all.....

Most people use words to frame their thoughts, and so one's choice of words affects what thoughts might be available.*

To me, the concept of "single payor" is both well-intentioned, and also a covert way to infantilize people...."don't worry, mommy and daddy are here to take care of things for you." Highly-cynical people often use the lure of "free" goodies deliberately to inculcate a sense of dependency in people who do need help. However, rather than "help" them through a difficult time while also helping them learn better to care for themselves in the future, the "help" comes with a very serious "string" attached: you can only continue to receive that "help" as long as we are in power to give it to you.

People rightly criticize capitalism for its inherent tendency to divide society into "haves" and "have nots" yet progressivism does exactly the same thing: either you run the government (and get to ride around on fancy airplanes at taxpayer expense) or you depend upon the government (or I suppose you turn over half of your income to the government for the privilege of having such a wonderful government in charge of your life).

It seems to me that any viable healthcare system must include people taking responsibility for their own outcomes. There always has to be at least a dual-payor system (if not more): the individual him/herself, and some other funding source.




* not sure how many people have learned a foreign language as an adult. Typically, one subconsciously assumes that the other person "really" is thinking in your language, and only is speaking their language. At first we translate their words into our language, formulate our response, and then translate back into their language again. Once you become fluent in the other language, you actually start to think in that language as well. When you do, you generally find that there are certain words that just can't be translated: you start to say "it's sort of like..." followed by a sentence or two.

I recall visiting a friend at work who worked for KLM Royal Dutch Airlines. She was talking on the phone to someone from headquarters in Dutch, then hung up the phone and started speaking to me in Dutch as well. It was only when she saw the puzzled look on my face that she asked, "oh, am I still speaking Dutch? I'm sorry." She was not consciously aware of which language she was speaking.

I guess this is an extremely long-winded way of saying that "yes, it is semantics" and also "no it is not 'purely' semantics."

One of the challenges I have from time to time is that I also learned to think in symbols, and it can be tricky to translate symbolic thinking into any language using words. It was eerie when we were moving and I found my old quantum mechanics notebood from college. I recognized my handwriting and knew that I could manipulate all those symbols at that time, and had lost the facility of that due to lack of constant use.
 
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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

The solicitor general is an idiot.
Actually, I thought the Solicitor General did a pretty good job arguing a pretty weak case. The drafters of the law totally ignored Constitutional issues entirely, which put him in a tough spot.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

What is it with Cornell grads trying to assume my words on another tangent blah bah blah blah
Nice rant. But it was a joke.

obedient-husband.jpg
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

Conscription wasn't a strictly enumerated power..

I'm not quite sure if this language from Article II, Section II covers that or not....kind of vague...

The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

I'm not quite sure if this language from Article II, Section II covers that or not....kind of vague...

The Constitution was designed to be vague, so that it could continue to work with an evolving nation. Of course, that also assumes that the nation continues to use the Constitution.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

That's kind of my point.

I'm suspicious of arguments from "strict construction" because so many questions are indeterminate.

So the result is everyone is a strict constructionist when the case involves a policy they dislike, and an "intentionally vague, living document"-type when the case involves a policy they *do* support.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

Interesting, you use the word "purely" to dismiss the observation out of hand without responding at all.....

Most people use words to frame their thoughts, and so one's choice of words affects what thoughts might be available.*

To me, the concept of "single payor" is both well-intentioned, and also a covert way to infantilize people...."don't worry, mommy and daddy are here to take care of things for you." Highly-cynical people often use the lure of "free" goodies deliberately to inculcate a sense of dependency in people who do need help. However, rather than "help" them through a difficult time while also helping them learn better to care for themselves in the future, the "help" comes with a very serious "string" attached: you can only continue to receive that "help" as long as we are in power to give it to you.

People rightly criticize capitalism for its inherent tendency to divide society into "haves" and "have nots" yet progressivism does exactly the same thing: either you run the government (and get to ride around on fancy airplanes at taxpayer expense) or you depend upon the government (or I suppose you turn over half of your income to the government for the privilege of having such a wonderful government in charge of your life).

It seems to me that any viable healthcare system must include people taking responsibility for their own outcomes. There always has to be at least a dual-payor system (if not more): the individual him/herself, and some other funding source.




* not sure how many people have learned a foreign language as an adult. Typically, one subconsciously assumes that the other person "really" is thinking in your language, and only is speaking their language. At first we translate their words into our language, formulate our response, and then translate back into their language again. Once you become fluent in the other language, you actually start to think in that language as well. When you do, you generally find that there are certain words that just can't be translated: you start to say "it's sort of like..." followed by a sentence or two.

I recall visiting a friend at work who worked for KLM Royal Dutch Airlines. She was talking on the phone to someone from headquarters in Dutch, then hung up the phone and started speaking to me in Dutch as well. It was only when she saw the puzzled look on my face that she asked, "oh, am I still speaking Dutch? I'm sorry." She was not consciously aware of which language she was speaking.

I guess this is an extremely long-winded way of saying that "yes, it is semantics" and also "no it is not 'purely' semantics."

One of the challenges I have from time to time is that I also learned to think in symbols, and it can be tricky to translate symbolic thinking into any language using words. It was eerie when we were moving and I found my old quantum mechanics notebood from college. I recognized my handwriting and knew that I could manipulate all those symbols at that time, and had lost the facility of that due to lack of constant use.

I certainly didn't intend to dismiss anything other than a potential discussion on how imperfectly the term single-payor captures the essence of the system it's meant to describe.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS II: "Release the Kagan!"

I certainly didn't intend to dismiss anything other than a potential discussion on how imperfectly the term single-payor captures the essence of the system it's meant to describe.

I understand, thanks. Did not mean to direct any "rant" at you personally. There are a few people who seem to think that we'd be in utopian bliss if we only had government pay for everything, and I sometimes am a bit impatient with their naivete.
 
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