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The Paint Store Diaries: Michigan Tech Offseason Part III
- Thread starter Twitch Boy
- Start date
Puck Swami
New member
Re: The Paint Store Diaries: Michigan Tech Offseason Part III
Tech did the WCHA proud, beating some pro teams and raising the profile of our league in the heart of Europe. Well done. Your players could have easily gone to Europe for the sighseeing, the beer and the girls, but they clearly played like they had something to prove, and the results were worth the effort.
I think MTU deserves more respect from hockey fans everywhere for the long history of contrbutions to our game, and for those of us around the country that know about the hockey history on the UP, it's sad that your great fans don't get to experience more success in the WCHA.
I think the thing that bugs me most is that Tech's lack of recent WCHA success is not really the fault of the players, the coaches there or even the University. The reality is that the playing field has changed so much among the other WCHA teams in the past 15 years, the game is no longer a gentlemen's game played on a few campuses for the sake of honor and competition. The WCHA game is now a full blown TV revenue sport played before larger corwds and NHL talent factory, and that reallity does not lend itself well to Tech's future (or frankly, many WCHA school's futures.) We are now at the tail end of a golden age of college hockey, where small schools could actually compete with big schools, and pretty soon, many of us are going to be priced out of the game...
When you look at the huge level of investment required now, the TV exposure and the larger market sizes in the league, it's raised the overall stakes to a level that makes it very hard for MTU to keep pace in a Darwinian evolutionary spiral that will probably not end happily for many of the WCHA teams, especially if the BTHC comes to fruition.
That said, your program still battles hard on the ice with all it has, and your die hard fans still bring the spirit that makes Tech a special place.
Why are all of your posts feel-good posts?
Tech did the WCHA proud, beating some pro teams and raising the profile of our league in the heart of Europe. Well done. Your players could have easily gone to Europe for the sighseeing, the beer and the girls, but they clearly played like they had something to prove, and the results were worth the effort.
I think MTU deserves more respect from hockey fans everywhere for the long history of contrbutions to our game, and for those of us around the country that know about the hockey history on the UP, it's sad that your great fans don't get to experience more success in the WCHA.
I think the thing that bugs me most is that Tech's lack of recent WCHA success is not really the fault of the players, the coaches there or even the University. The reality is that the playing field has changed so much among the other WCHA teams in the past 15 years, the game is no longer a gentlemen's game played on a few campuses for the sake of honor and competition. The WCHA game is now a full blown TV revenue sport played before larger corwds and NHL talent factory, and that reallity does not lend itself well to Tech's future (or frankly, many WCHA school's futures.) We are now at the tail end of a golden age of college hockey, where small schools could actually compete with big schools, and pretty soon, many of us are going to be priced out of the game...
When you look at the huge level of investment required now, the TV exposure and the larger market sizes in the league, it's raised the overall stakes to a level that makes it very hard for MTU to keep pace in a Darwinian evolutionary spiral that will probably not end happily for many of the WCHA teams, especially if the BTHC comes to fruition.
That said, your program still battles hard on the ice with all it has, and your die hard fans still bring the spirit that makes Tech a special place.
Jon
Say, this is nice.
Re: The Paint Store Diaries: Michigan Tech Offseason Part III
I dare you write something like that about PC hockey.
I dare you write something like that about PC hockey.
FadeToBlack&Gold
8647
Re: The Paint Store Diaries: Michigan Tech Offseason Part III
Well, today was their leisure day in Munich. I guess they earned it.
Well, today was their leisure day in Munich. I guess they earned it.
bigblue_dl
Armed
Re: The Paint Store Diaries: Michigan Tech Offseason Part III
In other words "Lady Kraut Insemination Day!"Well, today was their leisure day in Munich. I guess they earned it.
Re: The Paint Store Diaries: Michigan Tech Offseason Part III
Do you suppose that they've told a few Munich girls about all of the sausage they could have in the UP??
Do you suppose that they've told a few Munich girls about all of the sausage they could have in the UP??
huskyfan
New member
Re: The Paint Store Diaries: Michigan Tech Offseason Part III
You like us! You really really like us!!
Seriously, thanks for the kind words. I'm hoping we can do as well against the WCHA as we did against the Germans.
You like us! You really really like us!!
Seriously, thanks for the kind words. I'm hoping we can do as well against the WCHA as we did against the Germans.
bigblue_dl
Armed
Re: The Paint Store Diaries: Michigan Tech Offseason Part III
There would be plenty of bratwursts for them to smother with their sour kraut.Do you suppose that they've told a few Munich girls about all of the sausage they could have in the UP??
Re: The Paint Store Diaries: Michigan Tech Offseason Part III
I'm wondering if any of our recent graduates caught the eye of any Euro pro recruiters.
Hopefully it was a fun experience for the team, got them loosened up and ready to compete, and perhaps their overall performance caught the eye of a couple potential recruits from that side of the pond.
I'm wondering if any of our recent graduates caught the eye of any Euro pro recruiters.
manurespreader
Still upright
Re: The Paint Store Diaries: Michigan Tech Offseason Part III
I don't agree with swami completely here. It would be easy to draw the opposite conclusion about college hockey based on how many real small schools in the east seem to be relatively competitive in the tournament, even though they may have only started in Div 1 relatively recently.
IMHO the talent level in college hockey is very flat and it doesn't take much for a team from obscurity to beat the big boys. I don't agree that BC or any of the other name teams are that much better either.
Having said that, Tech does face larger hurdles than other schools due to it's location, and market size. They definitely have more money to spend, and have advantages in recruiting, and that is a big factor.
Glad to see some of the young guys have good games, we will need them this year.
I don't agree with swami completely here. It would be easy to draw the opposite conclusion about college hockey based on how many real small schools in the east seem to be relatively competitive in the tournament, even though they may have only started in Div 1 relatively recently.
IMHO the talent level in college hockey is very flat and it doesn't take much for a team from obscurity to beat the big boys. I don't agree that BC or any of the other name teams are that much better either.
Having said that, Tech does face larger hurdles than other schools due to it's location, and market size. They definitely have more money to spend, and have advantages in recruiting, and that is a big factor.
Glad to see some of the young guys have good games, we will need them this year.
FadeToBlack&Gold
8647
Re: The Paint Store Diaries: Michigan Tech Offseason Part III
I also don't believe in the inevitability of the BTHC. Some would call that wishful thinking, but the reality is that hockey is still a niche sport, and it likely always will be. Until we enter some alternate reality where hockey is the #1 or #2 sport in the US, a bunch of SEC or PAC-10/12(16?) schools start adding programs, and NCAA hockey becomes the top route to the NHL, I can't picture mega TV deals and the end of mid-majors such as SCSU or small schools like CC fielding competitive teams. The way things stand today, a majority of pro players are still coming up through the major junior ranks, and I think we're about to find out that while the NCAA and USA Hockey have taken big strides in the past decade, they've hit a plateau until non-traditional markets really start to notice the sport.
So basically, until college hockey starts turning into college football, I'm not too worried.
In the event that Penn State really does add a team, I think the current Big 10/12 hockey schools could be placated with a reduction in WCHA/CCHA conference games so they can play for some hardware and get TV time on the Big Ten Network. It would simply give the smaller schools a chance to schedule a few more OOC opponents, which is something we all want to see, IMO.
I also don't believe in the inevitability of the BTHC. Some would call that wishful thinking, but the reality is that hockey is still a niche sport, and it likely always will be. Until we enter some alternate reality where hockey is the #1 or #2 sport in the US, a bunch of SEC or PAC-10/12(16?) schools start adding programs, and NCAA hockey becomes the top route to the NHL, I can't picture mega TV deals and the end of mid-majors such as SCSU or small schools like CC fielding competitive teams. The way things stand today, a majority of pro players are still coming up through the major junior ranks, and I think we're about to find out that while the NCAA and USA Hockey have taken big strides in the past decade, they've hit a plateau until non-traditional markets really start to notice the sport.
So basically, until college hockey starts turning into college football, I'm not too worried.
In the event that Penn State really does add a team, I think the current Big 10/12 hockey schools could be placated with a reduction in WCHA/CCHA conference games so they can play for some hardware and get TV time on the Big Ten Network. It would simply give the smaller schools a chance to schedule a few more OOC opponents, which is something we all want to see, IMO.
Puck Swami
New member
Re: The Paint Store Diaries: Michigan Tech Offseason Part III
If the talent level was really flat, you'd see Tech finishing in the top half as often as the bottom half of the WCHA. It's not flat. Tourney teams upsetting more talented teams can easily happen in a one and done NCAA format, where a hot goalie and a bounce can steal you a win and make you belive that the talent level is similar. It's not. If Denver played RIT ten times, Denver would win likely win eight, but in a one and done format, you can get easily bounced if you don't play your best and the other team has a good night.
The point here is that Tech has enough talent to beat any team in the country on a given night. But the reason Tech usually finishes toward the bottom of the WCHA is because the talent level isn't flat, the season is long and cream rises to the top over the long grind. Programs that finish in the top half almost every year finish there usually because their talent level is at a higher level.
Tech simply does have the same level of investment in its programs as other WCHA schools do, which is itself a function of market size and and location, as you pointed out. Additionally besides market size and location, Tech will always face more recruiting hurdles with it's mission as a technological university, which limits the applicant pool, it's academic rigor (which shuts out marginal students) and the lack of females on campus, which is no small issue when recruiting 16-19 year old young men. Those extra obastacles could be overcome in the 1960s, when players were not as sophisticated about what their needs were as they are now. Back then, top players in the West mostly just wanted a chance to play as a way of avoiding the farm, the mines or the local factory. They didn't expect much more than a shot at hockey and and an education. Today, top players' (and their advisors') needs are much more specific - they want the great facilities, the TV exposure and to play with other high level players who are on their way to pro hockey - and that's just to get considered.
For Tech to be a consistent top half finisher in the WCHA would take a huge investment that Tech likely cannot make as a Michigan public university. It would likely mean a high level name brand coach who can attract top talent. Then you'd need facility upgrades and some kind of better television coverage that recruit's families can get on the dish and be seen in other states/provinces. I would also think you'd need to invest more into female recruitment at the University, and into more academic programs that can attract a wider segment of applicants. It could be done, but the costs are steep indeed.
If the talent level was really flat, you'd see Tech finishing in the top half as often as the bottom half of the WCHA. It's not flat. Tourney teams upsetting more talented teams can easily happen in a one and done NCAA format, where a hot goalie and a bounce can steal you a win and make you belive that the talent level is similar. It's not. If Denver played RIT ten times, Denver would win likely win eight, but in a one and done format, you can get easily bounced if you don't play your best and the other team has a good night.
The point here is that Tech has enough talent to beat any team in the country on a given night. But the reason Tech usually finishes toward the bottom of the WCHA is because the talent level isn't flat, the season is long and cream rises to the top over the long grind. Programs that finish in the top half almost every year finish there usually because their talent level is at a higher level.
Tech simply does have the same level of investment in its programs as other WCHA schools do, which is itself a function of market size and and location, as you pointed out. Additionally besides market size and location, Tech will always face more recruiting hurdles with it's mission as a technological university, which limits the applicant pool, it's academic rigor (which shuts out marginal students) and the lack of females on campus, which is no small issue when recruiting 16-19 year old young men. Those extra obastacles could be overcome in the 1960s, when players were not as sophisticated about what their needs were as they are now. Back then, top players in the West mostly just wanted a chance to play as a way of avoiding the farm, the mines or the local factory. They didn't expect much more than a shot at hockey and and an education. Today, top players' (and their advisors') needs are much more specific - they want the great facilities, the TV exposure and to play with other high level players who are on their way to pro hockey - and that's just to get considered.
For Tech to be a consistent top half finisher in the WCHA would take a huge investment that Tech likely cannot make as a Michigan public university. It would likely mean a high level name brand coach who can attract top talent. Then you'd need facility upgrades and some kind of better television coverage that recruit's families can get on the dish and be seen in other states/provinces. I would also think you'd need to invest more into female recruitment at the University, and into more academic programs that can attract a wider segment of applicants. It could be done, but the costs are steep indeed.
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FadeToBlack&Gold
8647
Re: The Paint Store Diaries: Michigan Tech Offseason Part III
Academics aren't that big of a deal. Tech has a solid business program that is challenging, but won't bend you over the table every week. I would know because I majored in business, along with 60-70% of the hockey team and probably about half of the women on campus (in many of my core classes, the M:F ratio was dead even, or close to it).
I mostly agree with what you are saying about the changing dynamics of NCAA hockey though, which is to say that it is a numbers game now. While a lot of money has been spent on player facilities, I would say most of the improvements have just been playing catchup to where the big boys of the WCHA have been for a decade.
Very few (if any) of us who fully understand the situation, really believe that Tech can contend for MacNaughton Cups again. I've said this a lot, but I think the majority of Tech fans would be content (note: content, not happy) with fielding a 5-7th place team, squeaking into home playoffs every so often, winning the GLI once a decade, and maybe putting the occasional late-bloomer in the NHL.
Academics aren't that big of a deal. Tech has a solid business program that is challenging, but won't bend you over the table every week. I would know because I majored in business, along with 60-70% of the hockey team and probably about half of the women on campus (in many of my core classes, the M:F ratio was dead even, or close to it).
I mostly agree with what you are saying about the changing dynamics of NCAA hockey though, which is to say that it is a numbers game now. While a lot of money has been spent on player facilities, I would say most of the improvements have just been playing catchup to where the big boys of the WCHA have been for a decade.
Very few (if any) of us who fully understand the situation, really believe that Tech can contend for MacNaughton Cups again. I've said this a lot, but I think the majority of Tech fans would be content (note: content, not happy) with fielding a 5-7th place team, squeaking into home playoffs every so often, winning the GLI once a decade, and maybe putting the occasional late-bloomer in the NHL.
Shirtless Guy
Old Dirty Basterd
Re: The Paint Store Diaries: Michigan Tech Offseason Part III
IF MTU were to be a 5-8th place team consistently, winning the GLI once a decade would not be acceptable. They should be winning once a decade as it is since its only 2 games and anything can happen even if it always involved Michigan and MSU.
FadeToBlack&Gold
8647
Re: The Paint Store Diaries: Michigan Tech Offseason Part III
If you get CBC, mark your calendars. Sunday October 17th, at 1 PM, you can watch Kinrade play.
If you get CBC, mark your calendars. Sunday October 17th, at 1 PM, you can watch Kinrade play.
Flashy Man
Misfit Emeritus
Re: The Paint Store Diaries: Michigan Tech Offseason Part III
The word out of the paint store is that the black and gold seats have been also installed in the Wood Gym.
The word out of the paint store is that the black and gold seats have been also installed in the Wood Gym.
Re: The Paint Store Diaries: Michigan Tech Offseason Part III
Facilities arie not even a remote part of the problem at Tech. I have been to more than 50 arenas of similar size and MacInnes is among the best. The sightlines are great for fans and media. The player facilities are outstanding. And with the recent renovartions, I feel it ranks among the best in the West of college hockey venues of its size.
As for schools like Denver and CC, and Miami in the CCHA, it wasn't all that long ago when those programs were lower echelon entities. But the schools made a much greater commitment to their programs. Jeff Sauer and Brad Buetow had far greater success at Wisconsin and Minnesota then they did at CC, and the big difference there wasn't their coaching abilities. Another good example is Rick Comley, his winning percentage at Michigan State is far above his record at Northern Michigan. He's also more than doubled his tourney appearance percentage. Is he a better coach at MSU, or does he simply have greater resources to work with at the bigger more prominent school?
Facilities arie not even a remote part of the problem at Tech. I have been to more than 50 arenas of similar size and MacInnes is among the best. The sightlines are great for fans and media. The player facilities are outstanding. And with the recent renovartions, I feel it ranks among the best in the West of college hockey venues of its size.
As for schools like Denver and CC, and Miami in the CCHA, it wasn't all that long ago when those programs were lower echelon entities. But the schools made a much greater commitment to their programs. Jeff Sauer and Brad Buetow had far greater success at Wisconsin and Minnesota then they did at CC, and the big difference there wasn't their coaching abilities. Another good example is Rick Comley, his winning percentage at Michigan State is far above his record at Northern Michigan. He's also more than doubled his tourney appearance percentage. Is he a better coach at MSU, or does he simply have greater resources to work with at the bigger more prominent school?
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FadeToBlack&Gold
8647
Re: The Paint Store Diaries: Michigan Tech Offseason Part III
I didn't mean to imply our facilities were bad or that we had cheaped out on the upgrades, but the league's top programs were offering most of it before or at the same time Tech was. We didn't create any competitive advantage there, we just negated one advantage of other programs. Soon, Duluth and Bemidji will be catching up too.
Mooch: 1993
CSWA: 1997
Kohl: 1998
Magness: 2000
Ralph: 2001
I didn't mean to imply our facilities were bad or that we had cheaped out on the upgrades, but the league's top programs were offering most of it before or at the same time Tech was. We didn't create any competitive advantage there, we just negated one advantage of other programs. Soon, Duluth and Bemidji will be catching up too.
Mooch: 1993
CSWA: 1997
Kohl: 1998
Magness: 2000
Ralph: 2001
huskyfan
New member
manurespreader
Still upright
Re: The Paint Store Diaries: Michigan Tech Offseason Part III
With regard to swami's points about talent level , agreed and point well taken. Though if the talent were not pretty flat, small teams would have no chance in the tournament, one game or not.So sure, the UND's of the world have loads of talent, more than most other teams, and yes cream does rise.
I think the schools now who are successful have some sort of advantage generally other than facilities, that they are leveraging to get top recruits. Either they are a large school, like MSU with all the advantages that size brings: market, girls, location etc. or they are located in a place that is desirable to live, like C Springs, or Denver, or Boston.
Notice that Tech recruited in the last three years, two blue chip guys who jumped ship before the season started. So Tech is not seen, at least by the professional scouts, as a place they can park a draft pick and have his hockey continue to improve. Although that might still be an error on their part. However the perception has to change.
Based on the above I don't think we will ever be able to compete with umtc for the top recruits. So, what we will have to do is sell,one, the quality education we offer,( because really most of the players are not going to the NHL after all) and two the things in the local area that are appealing, ie rock climbing, outdoor activities etc, and three find recruits that maybe need more time or are overlooked for some reason. This is aside from the coaching and hockey side of things, which for now anyway we are taking as equal. I don't see Comley as a better coach than Russell. Also having a real good recruiter is becoming more and more important.
Then we have to minimize our disadvantages. Location, etc.
We could certainly do a better job of getting exposure and TV time. Especially within Michigan. Playing some CCHA teams would help get on TV more, at least on Fox Sports Detroit, But really we need to be on TV where the recruits are which is not that easy.Then of course once we are on TV, we need to win some games. That might be the most important thing in recruits eyes.
With regard to swami's points about talent level , agreed and point well taken. Though if the talent were not pretty flat, small teams would have no chance in the tournament, one game or not.So sure, the UND's of the world have loads of talent, more than most other teams, and yes cream does rise.
I think the schools now who are successful have some sort of advantage generally other than facilities, that they are leveraging to get top recruits. Either they are a large school, like MSU with all the advantages that size brings: market, girls, location etc. or they are located in a place that is desirable to live, like C Springs, or Denver, or Boston.
Notice that Tech recruited in the last three years, two blue chip guys who jumped ship before the season started. So Tech is not seen, at least by the professional scouts, as a place they can park a draft pick and have his hockey continue to improve. Although that might still be an error on their part. However the perception has to change.
Based on the above I don't think we will ever be able to compete with umtc for the top recruits. So, what we will have to do is sell,one, the quality education we offer,( because really most of the players are not going to the NHL after all) and two the things in the local area that are appealing, ie rock climbing, outdoor activities etc, and three find recruits that maybe need more time or are overlooked for some reason. This is aside from the coaching and hockey side of things, which for now anyway we are taking as equal. I don't see Comley as a better coach than Russell. Also having a real good recruiter is becoming more and more important.
Then we have to minimize our disadvantages. Location, etc.
We could certainly do a better job of getting exposure and TV time. Especially within Michigan. Playing some CCHA teams would help get on TV more, at least on Fox Sports Detroit, But really we need to be on TV where the recruits are which is not that easy.Then of course once we are on TV, we need to win some games. That might be the most important thing in recruits eyes.